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 Wingeds wrote:
Ah, you're right Gangrel. Was hoping to outflank a heldrake or two saturday lol. I like the plasma gun idea and the chosen idea. Guess it would depend who you're playing against. Snapfiring the lascannons or autocannons seems like a waste now that I've thought about it more.

I have used Huron in conjunction with Fabius to make a large unit (15+) of CSM, all slaanesh marked and such. S5, I5, Infiltrating Marines with FnP. It creates a big issue for your enemy to deal with. Of course this was not in a "gunline" army, it was in an overload list.

I have used Master of Deception to put my Autocannon Havocs in excellent position though. To me the true strength of infiltration is just that you get to deploy last.... in response.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:
Ah, you're right Gangrel. Was hoping to outflank a heldrake or two saturday lol. I like the plasma gun idea and the chosen idea. Guess it would depend who you're playing against. Snapfiring the lascannons or autocannons seems like a waste now that I've thought about it more.

I have used Huron in conjunction with Fabius to make a large unit (15+) of CSM, all slaanesh marked and such. S5, I5, Infiltrating Marines with FnP. It creates a big issue for your enemy to deal with. Of course this was not in a "gunline" army, it was in an overload list.

I have used Master of Deception to put my Autocannon Havocs in excellent position though. To me the true strength of infiltration is just that you get to deploy last.... in response.

yyeeesss! Now your talking! Hadnt thought of that one Purpose for the havocs though is simply as a resonably priced special weapon squad. With Fabius though and the mark of nurgle I think they would be a considerable pain on someone's flank.

Guys, take a look at this list. I think will it work as gunline. There are some units, i can put away to improove it.

HQ Lord
MoS

HQ Demon Prince
wings
black mace
Demon of Nurgle

Elites Hellbrute
lascannon
ml

Elites Hellbrute
lascannon
ml

Troops Noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML
VoLW
add CCW

Troops Noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML
VoLW
add CCW

Troops Noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML
VoLW
add CCW

Heavy Support obliterators (2)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support obliterators (2)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support obliterators (2)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Fast Attack Helldrake
baleflamer

Fast Attack raptors (5)
2 melta

Fast Attack raptors (5)
2 melta
Total 2015 pts. Need to do it as 2000 pts list.
I put demon prince and raptors in it for counter assault role. I'm thinking about ways to put Masque in it.

i would advocate 10 man squads of NM with 2 blastmasters and lots of sonic blasters i use 2 of these and 2 5 man squads with blastmasters so give them a biomancy sorceror with endurance and they can move and shoot at full range

So.... why no love for Havocs with 4x ML with Flak missiles and a ADL with a Icarus Laser?

 BlkTom wrote:
So.... why no love for Havocs with 4x ML with Flak missiles and a ADL with a Icarus Laser?

Mostly because Lascannon Havocs cost less and are more effective against AV12 fliers..

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
i would advocate 10 man squads of NM with 2 blastmasters and lots of sonic blasters i use 2 of these and 2 5 man squads with blastmasters so give them a biomancy sorceror with endurance and they can move and shoot at full range

Ok, i'll think about adding numbers in Noise marines squads. But sorcerer is a bit of randomness in this list. It is sad that sorcerer with MoS can't unlock Noise marines as troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do you think about adding Masque as ally in Chaos gunline list?

Ok, after some thougths:
HQ Lord
MoS



Troops cultists (20)
2 flamers

Troops noise marines (10)
blast master (2)
rhino
HML
VoLW
add CCW

Troops noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML

Troops noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML

Troops noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML


Heavy Support obliterators (3)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support obliterators (3)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support obliterators (3)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Fast Attack Helldrake
baleflamer

Fast Attack raptors (5)
2 melta

I think this will do better. I will try it on this weekend against IG gunline with 2 Vendettas.

 BlkTom wrote:
So.... why no love for Havocs with 4x ML with Flak missiles and a ADL with a Icarus Laser?

You'd think that people would see the usability of something that can damage AV 14, shoot down fliers and spam pie plates, whilst being relatively cost-effective.
It's a good all-rounder if you're not sure what you're facing, really. I've found them to be quite successful.

Selym wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
So.... why no love for Havocs with 4x ML with Flak missiles and a ADL with a Icarus Laser?

You'd think that people would see the usability of something that can damage AV 14, shoot down fliers and spam pie plates, whilst being relatively cost-effective.
It's a good all-rounder if you're not sure what you're facing, really. I've found them to be quite successful.

I dunno... I think I am starting to be swayed by the LC arguement. They needed to make Flak missiles Str 8, not Str 7. At that point, the arguement comes down to for a LC that if I hit with that 6, I pen on a 4+ and have a 33% chance of blowing up the target. Meanwhile a Flak ML is hitting on a 3+ but is having to pen on a 6 and then it is a crap shoot for damage. It feels like MLs will glance a vehicle to death and a LC will kill a vehicle if it hits. Obviously jinks and cover saves (or invuln saves) limit this even more. Then you throw in one of the few AV 14 flyers out there and the ML is dead wasted for that extra 40pts, while the LC still has a chance to pen.

Makes me /really/ sad, as I have a ton of MLers I was going to use. I am starting to think LCs are just the better weapon all around for 10pts less a weapon.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I have played roughly 12 games so far since the new codex has come out, and I have yet to see my Nurgle Lord + Bike + Black Mace + Burning Brand + Key, actually fail me...

You know this is totally illegal right? You can only replace one weapon with an artifact

 Massaen wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I have played roughly 12 games so far since the new codex has come out, and I have yet to see my Nurgle Lord + Bike + Black Mace + Burning Brand + Key, actually fail me...

You know this is totally illegal right? You can only replace one weapon with an artifact

and the key is virtually useless

 BlkTom wrote:

Selym wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
So.... why no love for Havocs with 4x ML with Flak missiles and a ADL with a Icarus Laser?

You'd think that people would see the usability of something that can damage AV 14, shoot down fliers and spam pie plates, whilst being relatively cost-effective.
It's a good all-rounder if you're not sure what you're facing, really. I've found them to be quite successful.

I dunno... I think I am starting to be swayed by the LC arguement. They needed to make Flak missiles Str 8, not Str 7. At that point, the arguement comes down to for a LC that if I hit with that 6, I pen on a 4+ and have a 33% chance of blowing up the target. Meanwhile a Flak ML is hitting on a 3+ but is having to pen on a 6 and then it is a crap shoot for damage. It feels like MLs will glance a vehicle to death and a LC will kill a vehicle if it hits. Obviously jinks and cover saves (or invuln saves) limit this even more. Then you throw in one of the few AV 14 flyers out there and the ML is dead wasted for that extra 40pts, while the LC still has a chance to pen.

Makes me /really/ sad, as I have a ton of MLers I was going to use. I am starting to think LCs are just the better weapon all around for 10pts less a weapon.

A combo of autocannons/lascannons are always better than MLs. Many factors here, but mainly STR 8 AP 3 ROF 1 sucks in 6th edition and the frag missile is just weak sauce.

This is my current plan for a CSM gunline army.
The idea is to hide the cultists in the land raiders, use the land raiders to shoot open armor, use the helldrakes to eat the contents of the armor, and the daemon princes to say "Get off my lawn!" if something gets to close, (or chase down targets of oppertunity)
One cool thing I've found is that I have 3 FA for "The scouring" and 3 HS for "Big Guns never Tire" That really helps on those missions.

1850 list
HQ
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w/Wings, Armor
Daemon Prince of Khorne w/Wings, Armor, Axe of Blind Fury

Troops
10 Chaos Cultists
10 Chaos Cultists
10 Chaos Cultists

Fast Attack
HellDrake w/BaleFlamer
HellDrake w/BaleFlamer
HellDrake w/BaleFlamer

Heavy Support
Chaos Land Raider w/Dozer Blade
Chaos Land Raider w/Dozer Blade
Chaos Land Raider

That's pretty dirty for 1850. I know my 1850 list can't crack three LR in a reasonable amount of time.

Yea, its pretty cheezy/extreme, but the people in my local meta are hardcore players who play hardcore lists.

I've got much more friendly lists for friendly games.

Again, I'm playing BA. If I were playing Necrons, I could crack the LR and have my own fliers.

Yea, My Necrons are salivating right now, as are my buddies IG. lol

Tri-Land Raider is a great meta-counter though.

AV14 does make plasma and autocannon spammers look silly. And they're out there.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Tri-Land Raider is a great meta-counter though.

Its not just tri-raider. Its tri-raider, tri-helldrake, and dual DP.

The idea is to have a lot to overwhelm the enemy.

There are some hard counters, but that's the nature of extreme lists. We play in a rock/paper/scissor/lizard/spock game now, and the trick is to have as many counters with leaving as few for you as possible.

Oh I know I got all that. I have run a dual helldrake/DP (burning brand) list before. I definitely understand an overload list. The problem is that it doesn't overload until turn 2 or later, but still pretty awesome. I'm not doubting your list, it is a very rock paper scissors list, which will trounce 80% or more of your unsuspecting opponents. Like you said though, you have a very competitive meta, so maybe your win ratio wont be that great, but you should have a great chance everytime you take the field!

 Gangrel767 wrote:
. Like you said though, you have a very competitive meta, so maybe your win ratio wont be that great, but you should have a great chance everytime you take the field!

It's a mixed bag of beans. People like OrdoSean, Mannahnin, Tsilber, and The Everliving all attend tourneys at my FLGS.
These are guys who regularly attend national events and have won at more than one.

Playing people who are better than you is a great way to improve your game. Its also a very humbling experience.

Martel732 wrote:


A combo of autocannons/lascannons are always better than MLs. Many factors here, but mainly STR 8 AP 3 ROF 1 sucks in 6th edition and the frag missile is just weak sauce.

Like I said, if Flak were Str 8 instead of 7, it would make that extra 10pts almost worth it. It just feels like a GW money grab bs concept... (done in a British gangster movie accent) 'All right, here we go... to make more money and get these lazy gits to buy said new models, make flyers only counterable by other flyers! If we make the weapons that all of these poor sods have shelled out worthless against these flyers, these gits will have to buy flyers to counter the scumbag players who have flyers! Brilliant!'

That makes it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XNFokmDKrE&list=PL4047F5A9C488552D&shuffle=35052

Oh, yeah and the flakk missile kinda sucks too because the quad gun does the same thing. Actually it's better because it's twin linked.

Am i missing a FAQ or something? Arent you only allowed 1 Blast master per 10 noise marines?

New FAQ is one per 5 two per 10

@ Gangrel Did you outflank the autocannons or infiltrate them? And wouldn't outflanking autocannons be movement, thus they snap fire first turn? That kind of turned me off on them as an outflanking unit unless paired with an invisibility sorcerer and getting them into cover.

I test my list that was posted.
First game was vs new Dark Angels shooting list some thing like:
Samael
4*5 marines with lcannon with rasors with lcannons
5 bikes+att bike
5-6 land speeders with missiles
and LAnd Raider

Missin relic. Lose, becose a drop relic on last turn due to lucky shot.
Second game vs IG with 2 blobs, 2 vendettas, some chimmeras basilisk, griffon and plasma tank.

Mission relic. Win. I could bring down tank, blob, all chimeras, command squads, vendetta.
So i like noise marines list, but it needs some improovement.
Now it looks like this:
HQ Lord
SoS
MoS
Burning Brand

HQ Sorcerer
MoS
Spell Familiar




Troops noise marines (10)
blast master (2)
sonic blaster (7)
rhino


Troops noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML


Troops noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML


Troops noise marines (5)
blast master (1)
rhino
HML


Troops cultists (20)
2 flamers

Heavy Support obliterators (3)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support obliterators (2)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support obliterators (2)
veterans
mark of Nurgle

Fast Attack Helldrake
baleflamer

Fast Attack raptors (5)
2 melta

 Wingeds wrote:
@ Gangrel Did you outflank the autocannons or infiltrate them? And wouldn't outflanking autocannons be movement, thus they snap fire first turn? That kind of turned me off on them as an outflanking unit unless paired with an invisibility sorcerer and getting them into cover.

I just infiltrated them so I could deploy them last, as my enemy had no infiltrators and I had first deployment. It was the perfect storm. Vanguard deployment. I was able to deploy the autocannons with side shots on all his vehicles (he forgot I had that unit left to deploy). So when he failed to seize, I popped his Vindicator. To outflank them would be a mistake, IMHO. This unit is not meant to function like that. Perhaps some chosen in a rhino outflanking for some special weapon support, but I'd probably only do that in Hammer and Anvil deployment.

I have also infiltrated Raptors (since they're "Infantry (Jump)"). A big blob of fifteen of those suckers were almost impossible to bring down before they got stuck in combat. Pretty fun stuff. Not sure how competitive, but that term is so based on your personal Meta it's ridiculous.

Ah thats sweet. I hadn't thought of using raptors outlfanking. That gives you some nasty range and you can jump over anyone trying to block up a table edge.

I've given the biker squad with lord a try and it's amazing. 7-10 nurgle bikers is a scary unit to outflank.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:
@ Gangrel Did you outflank the autocannons or infiltrate them? And wouldn't outflanking autocannons be movement, thus they snap fire first turn? That kind of turned me off on them as an outflanking unit unless paired with an invisibility sorcerer and getting them into cover.

I just infiltrated them so I could deploy them last, as my enemy had no infiltrators and I had first deployment. It was the perfect storm. Vanguard deployment. I was able to deploy the autocannons with side shots on all his vehicles (he forgot I had that unit left to deploy). So when he failed to seize, I popped his Vindicator. To outflank them would be a mistake, IMHO. This unit is not meant to function like that. Perhaps some chosen in a rhino outflanking for some special weapon support, but I'd probably only do that in Hammer and Anvil deployment.

I have also infiltrated Raptors (since they're "Infantry (Jump)"). A big blob of fifteen of those suckers were almost impossible to bring down before they got stuck in combat. Pretty fun stuff. Not sure how competitive, but that term is so based on your personal Meta it's ridiculous.

I think that raptors are not Infantry (Jump), becose Codex tell us that they are jump infantry troop type, so they can't be infiltrated by using Master of Deception Warlord Trait.