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Damn those Imperial Blood Beret Captains with zillion actions and 5 wounds shooting their Nimrod one handed on the poor legionarie hordes.

M.

I just hope, Mishima players don't have to pledge for a Bauhaus army to get their most prominent hero miniature.

Does a Brotherhood army pledge count ?

M.

I’m going to chime in here… I loved old Warzone, this looks good… it give a warm feeling of nostalgia and hope that as a gamer I’ll have more choices.
But…

Every complaint posted here has a right to be posted.
And I agree with some…

I don’t see value in supporting this KS. If it hits selves or can be ordered via 20% discount after they strike a distribution deal than maybe I’ll buy a box to look over . but why toss money to the winds on this right now?

Hear me out on this… KS is to get a product to market. (to me and why I promote certain I.P.s)
If these guys were going to already be producing the product regardless of the KS, then all it is for is to get them to a comfort zone for producing plastics and Not the production of other forces… You think that Paradox Entertainment is going to give these guys the Green light if they were not ready to fully drop the entire Warzone I.P. on you? Don’t be so naïve… every army and character is planned to be released. Your funding “might” hasten that but I Doubt it… and mark my words… every force will have basic plastic troops with or without this KS being a big “Success”

The offers they make in freebies (which is a huge draw to a KS) are meager at best.. I’ll get better value from buying this once it hits selves because I’m not seeing any other incentive to back this? I don’t need 400+++ free minis at the $1 pledge level, but if I’m giving you money to hold to get you off the ground I expect a return on my investment… and at the end of the day that’s what ever single backer is… an investor… expecting a return with interest.

I’ll just wait to “test out” the new warzone when I can get it a decent price (which will be 20% off) unless they make my “return” worth my “investment”
But regardless this game was going to be made with or without the KS… Regardless All future armies will have plastic core troops(mark my words) …. This is a Promo cash push… and that’s cool I Do Not Knock That… but is they want my money they need to start handing out the goodies. Why..? Because even without me investing or you or you or even YOU…. This was going to happen… I’m not blind

All that being said I hope Prodos and Paradox Find great success with Warzones return to the gaming industry. If the imperial line looks good I might buy some especially if they remake awesome trenchers love the Imperial force.

Go Ahead and drop you well worded attacks…

But remember, we are the investors and expect a return…

that return is cool free stuff… or being really cheap… this has neither… It’ll cost 1.50 to produce the 5 man plastic sprue once the molds are done maybe less… they should give it some thought.

other wise… it’s just a store with long shipping delays…

 5deadly wrote:

Go Ahead and drop you well worded attacks…

You misspelled hear

 5deadly wrote:

Here me out on this…

Fixed... Thanks man!

@5deadly - Sure, you got a few points, it's just that it's been said already. And the rest of the world need to pay for shipping and so on anyhow with all the UK or US based KS, so for most of us not living in the US or UK, I dare say, it's not such a big issue. But what you said has basically been said already and I fail to see the benefit of it being said again and again and again and again....

 5deadly wrote:
It’ll cost 1.50 to produce the 5 man plastic sprue once the molds are done maybe less…

I'm not an expert but doesn't the mold in itself cost a whole lot, let alone the access to the equipment needed to both make the mold and casting the miniatures. I'd be surprised if they would have that equipment "in-house" already.

that return is cool free stuff… or being really cheap… this has neither…

So you are complaining that the KS does not follow the idea of bringing a game to the market but at the same time want lots of free stuff/dirt cheap stuff ?

Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself there?

Btw were we going to see both rules and painted minis today?

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
@5deadly - Sure, you got a few points, it's just that it's been said already. And the rest of the world need to pay for shipping and so on anyhow with all the UK or US based KS, so for most of us not living in the US or UK, I dare say, it's not such a big issue. But what you said has basically been said already and I fail to see the benefit of it being said again and again and again and again....

 5deadly wrote:
It’ll cost 1.50 to produce the 5 man plastic sprue once the molds are done maybe less…

I'm not an expert but doesn't the mold in itself cost a whole lot, let alone the access to the equipment needed to both make the mold and casting the miniatures. I'd be surprised if they would have that equipment "in-house" already.

A mold can cost from 80.000€ to 500.000€ depending on the number of cavities, let along the cost of the IMM (Injection Molding Machine) required to operate the mold. The upside is that after the initial purchase it greatly reduces the cost of production and the time required plus you can operate multiple molds with a single IMM. Cavities on the mold require maintenance and replacement something that GW doesn't seem to do. That can be seen clearly on many "old" plastic kit where imperfections start to appear.
Thus it would be logical to outsource the production of plastic kit until they are able to financially afford such an investment.

The beta basic rules will be released at midnight tonight GMT UK time on Kickstarter in English in PDF format! All you will need is 12 or so minis per side, a tape measure, a D20, and some scissors.

Prodos wrote:
The beta basic rules will be released at midnight tonight GMT UK time on Kickstarter in English in PDF format! All you will need is 12 or so minis per side, a tape measure, a D20, and some scissors.

Woohooo. Now, it's time to find a person to test the rules with. Should I conscript my girlfriend? Mmmmm

If you need someone to help paint up some examples I'm more than happy to help out.

No one has said anything about painted minis, but the rules will be available at midnight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
If you need someone to help paint up some examples I'm more than happy to help out.

Thats a great idea. The talent in our community has become incredibly good and there are surely many that would be willing to help out and paint some minis "Pro Bono".

Prodos wrote:
The beta basic rules will be released at midnight tonight GMT UK time on Kickstarter in English in PDF format! All you will need is 12 or so minis per side, a tape measure, a D20, and some scissors.

Will we also be seeing any painted minis any time soon? Or even better renders for the minis still on concept art?

 praetor24 wrote:
Will we also be seeing any painted minis any time soon? Or even better renders for the minis still on concept art?

I can agree on that one, I'd rather see renders than painted minis (which we'll see soon enough anyhow, can't be long since worthy painting have been working on some minis for over a week AFAIK).

 Capamaru wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
@5deadly - Sure, you got a few points, it's just that it's been said already. And the rest of the world need to pay for shipping and so on anyhow with all the UK or US based KS, so for most of us not living in the US or UK, I dare say, it's not such a big issue. But what you said has basically been said already and I fail to see the benefit of it being said again and again and again and again....

 5deadly wrote:
It’ll cost 1.50 to produce the 5 man plastic sprue once the molds are done maybe less…

I'm not an expert but doesn't the mold in itself cost a whole lot, let alone the access to the equipment needed to both make the mold and casting the miniatures. I'd be surprised if they would have that equipment "in-house" already.

A mold can cost from 80.000€ to 500.000€ depending on the number of cavities,

That number is wrong, the ol' 100k (now 500k? haven't heard that one yet) number is blown way out of proportion and has been debunked countless times by companies that manufacture and product plastic molds, as well as people who work in the industry and people who do it as a hobby in their home. Accurate numbers include a low-end of $8,000 for Wargames Factory using CAD designs, and an upper end of $30,000 for Renedra using a pantograph and producing medium-sized sprue.

And 5deadly, once the mold is tooled, it costs literally a few cents to produce a sprue. For instance, the new $85 WHFB chaos monster kit? probably about 12 cents of plastic. The packaging costs more.

If Prodos makes the WZ figs in plastic, it'll most likely be spun-cast plastic to retain detail on the sides of the CAD models. CAD designs really need to be designed with plastic injection molding in mind.

 Capamaru wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
@5deadly - Sure, you got a few points, it's just that it's been said already. And the rest of the world need to pay for shipping and so on anyhow with all the UK or US based KS, so for most of us not living in the US or UK, I dare say, it's not such a big issue. But what you said has basically been said already and I fail to see the benefit of it being said again and again and again and again....

 5deadly wrote:
It’ll cost 1.50 to produce the 5 man plastic sprue once the molds are done maybe less…

I'm not an expert but doesn't the mold in itself cost a whole lot, let alone the access to the equipment needed to both make the mold and casting the miniatures. I'd be surprised if they would have that equipment "in-house" already.

A mold can cost from 80.000€ to 500.000€ depending on the number of cavities, let along the cost of the IMM (Injection Molding Machine) required to operate the mold. The upside is that after the initial purchase it greatly reduces the cost of production and the time required plus you can operate multiple molds with a single IMM. Cavities on the mold require maintenance and replacement something that GW doesn't seem to do. That can be seen clearly on many "old" plastic kit where imperfections start to appear.
Thus it would be logical to outsource the production of plastic kit until they are able to financially afford such an investment.

Not completely true. What they have shown so far have been 3d renders, and renders can be made into a mould for significantly cheaper. I have heard some of the DFG sprues cost $8,000 to produce.

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
Will we also be seeing any painted minis any time soon? Or even better renders for the minis still on concept art?

I can agree on that one, I'd rather see renders than painted minis (which we'll see soon enough anyhow, can't be long since worthy painting have been working on some minis for over a week AFAIK).

What keeps me from throwing another 42 quid on this KS is that I am waiting to see how the renders of the Armoured Chasseurs and Machinators will end up like.

@Prodos: What could help us understand what to expect from the renders of the upcoming units is to show a comparison of comparison of concept art and renders of the units already ready. E.g. how the Brotherhood troopers looked like when first drawn.

 praetor24 wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
Will we also be seeing any painted minis any time soon? Or even better renders for the minis still on concept art?

I can agree on that one, I'd rather see renders than painted minis (which we'll see soon enough anyhow, can't be long since worthy painting have been working on some minis for over a week AFAIK).

What keeps me from throwing another 42 quid on this KS is that I am waiting to see how the renders of the Armoured Chasseurs and Machinators will end up like.

@Prodos: What could help us understand what to expect from the renders of the upcoming units is to show a comparison of comparison of concept art and renders of the units already ready. E.g. how the Brotherhood troopers looked like when first drawn.

Hi Praetor24. The units and characters that have been released as a result of meeting the stretched goals were put into the 3D render pipleline as soon as they were released. As such these will start feeding through over the next few days.

Those that have not met the stretched goals have not been put into 3D render production yet, but as soon as they are released they will be. (unlike some suggestions here and elsewhere, we are not using KS as a preorder service, but instead to speed up our pipeline).

We have various individuals and companies working on painted models at the moment and more starting soon as soon as we have them to show we will do.

Let me know if you need any further information

@Prodos

Were the original 3 starters set to be released in the near future?

If the answer is yes then this is a glorified pre-order. You might be using those pre-order funds to get the ball rolling on additional items but the people initially putting in were putting in on models that were going to be released anyway. Pre-Order.....

Nothing wrong with it but you should accept that you are using it as a pre-order.

Prodos wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
Will we also be seeing any painted minis any time soon? Or even better renders for the minis still on concept art?

I can agree on that one, I'd rather see renders than painted minis (which we'll see soon enough anyhow, can't be long since worthy painting have been working on some minis for over a week AFAIK).

What keeps me from throwing another 42 quid on this KS is that I am waiting to see how the renders of the Armoured Chasseurs and Machinators will end up like.

@Prodos: What could help us understand what to expect from the renders of the upcoming units is to show a comparison of comparison of concept art and renders of the units already ready. E.g. how the Brotherhood troopers looked like when first drawn.

Hi Praetor24. The units and characters that have been released as a result of meeting the stretched goals were put into the 3D render pipleline as soon as they were released. As such these will start feeding through over the next few days.

Those that have not met the stretched goals have not been put into 3D render production yet, but as soon as they are released they will be. (unlike some suggestions here and elsewhere, we are not using KS as a preorder service, but instead to speed up our pipeline).

We have various individuals and companies working on painted models at the moment and more starting soon as soon as we have them to show we will do.

Let me know if you need any further information

If I need further info? I feel so spoiled by the way you treat us guys! Thanks a lot for the amazing comms and excuse us, if we pester you from time to time to show more. Addicted people are not good in decision making or expressing lucid opinions

But if I may take advantage of your willingness to provide more info, do you think that you could show us some side-to-side pictures of concept art and renders? It will be nice to see how for example the Brotherhood troopers started before ending up in what we see now. In this way, we can get an idea of how accurate the renders of the not-ready-yet-units will be to their concept art.

 praetor24 wrote:

Prodos wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
Will we also be seeing any painted minis any time soon? Or even better renders for the minis still on concept art?

I can agree on that one, I'd rather see renders than painted minis (which we'll see soon enough anyhow, can't be long since worthy painting have been working on some minis for over a week AFAIK).

What keeps me from throwing another 42 quid on this KS is that I am waiting to see how the renders of the Armoured Chasseurs and Machinators will end up like.

@Prodos: What could help us understand what to expect from the renders of the upcoming units is to show a comparison of comparison of concept art and renders of the units already ready. E.g. how the Brotherhood troopers looked like when first drawn.

Hi Praetor24. The units and characters that have been released as a result of meeting the stretched goals were put into the 3D render pipleline as soon as they were released. As such these will start feeding through over the next few days.

Those that have not met the stretched goals have not been put into 3D render production yet, but as soon as they are released they will be. (unlike some suggestions here and elsewhere, we are not using KS as a preorder service, but instead to speed up our pipeline).

We have various individuals and companies working on painted models at the moment and more starting soon as soon as we have them to show we will do.

Let me know if you need any further information

If I need further info? I feel so spoiled by the way you treat us guys! Thanks a lot for the amazing comms and excuse us, if we pester you from time to time to show more. Addicted people are not good in decision making or expressing lucid opinions

But if I may take advantage of your willingness to provide more info, do you think that you could show us some side-to-side pictures of concept art and renders? It will be nice to see how for example the Brotherhood troopers started before ending up in what we see now. In this way, we can get an idea of how accurate the renders of the not-ready-yet-units will be to their concept art.

That might take a bit of time, but we'll do our best!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Prodos

Were the original 3 starters set to be released in the near future?

If the answer is yes then this is a glorified pre-order. You might be using those pre-order funds to get the ball rolling on additional items but the people initially putting in were putting in on models that were going to be released anyway. Pre-Order.....

Nothing wrong with it but you should accept that you are using it as a pre-order.

Mr Smash

Ok let me ask you this, if we had only offered the Bauhaus starter (and stretched goals) on the KS how many people would have demanded or wanted to pledge for the other 3 sets?

If we class those three as pre-order, then taking into account the 10 items that KS has allowed us to do thus far, those 3 equate to less to 23%.
(the % number here does not include the rule/background book, KR multicase, WP Painting, the newly released doomtrooper, the tShirt or the 6" model)
When more is released (assuming it is), the 3 starter percentage will drop.

Even if we weight the product offered on price and include all offered in this KS I think we will find the 3 starters (to be launched in June and already covered) equate to relatively small percentage.

Ok....

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

So you are complaining that the KS does not follow the idea of bringing a game to the market but at the same time want lots of free stuff/dirt cheap stuff ?
Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself there?

Dirt cheap? No. true discount or a nice deal of freebies… yes.
It’s $18.15 cent for 5 man “plastic” starters. It’s $10.00 for 3 plastic space marines… and I see the savings where?
I’m not contradicting myself either. If you’re going for the early money grab show me the pay off. At 3.63 a troop- in plastic- for basic troops… I’m looking at GW prices, on a kickstarter… wanna argue that point Duncan? Cause a plastic space marine from GWs web page is 3.33 each. so go for it. Special Kick Starter Price... Real Special.

 Capamaru wrote:

A mold can cost from 80.000€ to 500.000€ depending on the number of cavities, let along the cost of the IMM (Injection Molding Machine) required to operate the mold. The upside is that after the initial purchase it greatly reduces the cost of production and the time required plus you can operate multiple molds with a single IMM. Cavities on the mold require maintenance and replacement something that GW doesn't seem to do. That can be seen clearly on many "old" plastic kit where imperfections start to appear.
Thus it would be logical to outsource the production of plastic kit until they are able to financially afford such an investment.

No that’s not even close… that’s the old tech way form awhile back… you can get plastic mold made using 3d renders depending on size of mold and labor needed between 2-20K for 20k you’re getting a high grade large sprue…

 judgedoug wrote:


That number is wrong, the ol' 100k (now 500k? haven't heard that one yet) number is blown way out of proportion and has been debunked countless times by companies that manufacture and product plastic molds, as well as people who work in the industry and people who do it as a hobby in their home. Accurate numbers include a low-end of $8,000 for Wargames Factory using CAD designs, and an upper end of $30,000 for Renedra using a pantograph and producing medium-sized sprue.

And 5deadly, once the mold is tooled, it costs literally a few cents to produce a sprue. For instance, the new $85 WHFB chaos monster kit? probably about 12 cents of plastic. The packaging costs more.

If Prodos makes the WZ figs in plastic, it'll most likely be spun-cast plastic to retain detail on the sides of the CAD models. CAD designs really need to be designed with plastic injection molding in mind.

Finally… You seem to know… 12 cents, could be right too but you gotta pay the manufacture… I was putting it high end… but yeah it’s like pennies on the dollar.

All that being said… these guys gotta pay themselves, we all need to eat, need a roof etc.
I still think it looks cool and might be nice to see who plays after it hits distribution. It’s an old name lots of folks recognized the brand… I’m sure it’ll be in tons of internet and brick and mortar shops.
but this isn’t looking like a truly sweet deal. Like I said I don’t expect 400++ free models… but the price doesn’t scream deal.
14.52 or 2.90 each should be the retail on these… after the 20%
Let me put this out there: if it’s $18.15 for 5 guys in plastic… and that the “discounted kickstarter special price…” then how much is this gonna really cost retail? Give that some thought.

@ Prodos... wanna see larger KS investment... make it worth it for all of us, make us an offer we can’t refuse... in the end you'll have a have all your molds in plastic and as you build your new customer base to do battle over the Sci-fi/Steampunk wargame market… those Razides, Judicators and Vulcans in styrene plastic for pennies on the dollar will appeal a hellave’lot more at a cheaper production price for you or you Could sell them at a higher price resin kits for way less return because not all of us want expensive resins… even malifaux seems to be all styrene plastic.

Not trying to be negative just rethink this a little. Even if you need to stop the KS for a week or 2 and come back with a vengeance… New game plan, new marketing strategy. This one’s a touch faulty when the layers are peeled back.
make me buy this by default and demo it in my local with the ability to say “and it’s cheaper than GW and you really get your money’s worth”

weird how'd this end up being one big quote?

@Prodos

You can try and fancy it up but you had a product ready to go to market that people are paying to get before you release it. That's a pre-order. There is nothing wrong with this.

Pre-orders do several things for a business. Primarily they give an estimate of potential sales but they also produce revenue for a company for future product by reducing the down time between release and recouping investments more swiftly. Allowing said company to re-invest it in new products (among other things).

That is what you are using this for. Basically your successive "releases" due to stretch goals are creating new pre-orders and thus doing the above. The product is already going to go to market. This isn't to launch a new business. It's to speed up your production by selling things earlier that you were going to release anyway whether it be in June/July or next year (Bauhaus if you hadn't succeeded in pre-selling enough other product) doesn't change the basic facts.

And you guys seem seriously resistant to advice that has produced solid results from companies doing even more to bring a new product to market than you are.

My only real beef is costing American Backers more money to kickstart than to wait for retail. I like the concepts and the models already procuded. I have some ideas for them when they go retail. But I didn't play Warzone a couple decades ago. I'm not nostalgic. I am like many, many gamers out and you're completely missing that market. Not to mention not generating the hype you could to have an instant large gaming base by taking this thing big. But it's your playground though the condescending tone to people offering solid and proven advice is a little annoying.

No one here is asking for insane amount of free stuff. All they are asking for is a reason to invest in your product outside of charity which it isn't cause I can't write off the additional cost of the models via the kickstarter vs. retail.

I think, we got your argument the first 50 times you and phil751posted it, even if we don't share it. Can we now go on?

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Prodos

You can try and fancy it up but you had a product ready to go to market that people are paying to get before you release it. That's a pre-order. There is nothing wrong with this.

Pre-orders do several things for a business. Primarily they give an estimate of potential sales but they also produce revenue for a company for future product by reducing the down time between release and recouping investments more swiftly. Allowing said company to re-invest it in new products (among other things).

That is what you are using this for. Basically your successive "releases" due to stretch goals are creating new pre-orders and thus doing the above. The product is already going to go to market. This isn't to launch a new business. It's to speed up your production by selling things earlier that you were going to release anyway whether it be in June/July or next year (Bauhaus if you hadn't succeeded in pre-selling enough other product) doesn't change the basic facts.

And you guys seem seriously resistant to advice that has produced solid results from companies doing even more to bring a new product to market than you are.

My only real beef is costing American Backers more money to kickstart than to wait for retail. I like the concepts and the models already procuded. I have some ideas for them when they go retail. But I didn't play Warzone a couple decades ago. I'm not nostalgic. I am like many, many gamers out and you're completely missing that market. Not to mention not generating the hype you could to have an instant large gaming base by taking this thing big. But it's your playground though the condescending tone to people offering solid and proven advice is a little annoying.

No one here is asking for insane amount of free stuff. All they are asking for is a reason to invest in your product outside of charity which it isn't cause I can't write off the additional cost of the models via the kickstarter vs. retail.

I'm sorry for any misunderstanding, but let me clarify the current discounts anyone outside UK currently gets including the US.

Lets take Dark Legion: 3 Starter boxes of your choice and Special Edition Signed Rules and Background Book plus at this point a character of your choice (£7) and a free mini (£4) plus £12 P&P
Normally that haul would retail at £147 (plus the fact the £4 is not available after and the rule book is signed - value of both obviously dependent on view of purchaser)
A USA pledger is paying £121, so saving 17% (rounding down) while getting the product shipped to their door, exclusive stuff and signed book, (assuming nothing changes in the remaining time of KS in the form of other offers etc) and getting the product a likely 3-6 months before its available in FLGS.

None of the above includes the free cards included and limited again only to Kickstarter. If included at the appropriate RRP, you would be nearer or just over 20%

I can't comment on how our chosen FLGS will discount, but I would be suprised if they instantly discount by 17% or thereabouts.

So moving on, it's a little over 6 hours until we all get our hands on the rules (I'll be at work by then unfortunately, on the plus side access to a photocopier while I'm there) and I'm really excited to see what they've done with the place. Outside of the core mechanics (D20 roll-under, action points, etc.) each edition of Warzone has had a fairly different spin to it. I'm interested to see, aside from the cards, what else they've done with the place. Especially the assault rules, which have always been a bit of a mess in other editions.

And with the weekend behind us that means we will likely be seeing new renders popping up (can't wait to see the Hussars).

And at the current pace (dear god, I'm surprised at how we're still chugging along with £1.5-2k days still; usually the slowdown is more pronounced) we should be reaching the £60k goal by mid week (unless something causes it to pick up again). Most of the stretches I've wanted have already occurred so I probably wont be adding Etoile Mortant to the order. But I'm sure the £60k goal contains at least someone's favourite unit.

And from there it is straight on through to plastic and possibly Capitol. And those should be occurring pretty quick (though I am expecting a more pronounced slowdown eventually).

I don't care about the preorder discussion. But I do care about this:

Prodos wrote:
I can't comment on how our chosen FLGS...

Are you all planning to sell your products to distributors in the US or not? Not doing so will limit your availability to just about nil over here. I could be reading it wrong and I'm pulling it out of context to the posts but I am concerned now.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I think, we got your argument the first 50 times you and phil751posted it, even if we don't share it. Can we now go on?

You might have but Prodos apparently didn't and since that was addressed to him I don't see the issue. Also a valid concern, not properly addressed is still cause for conversation just as much as someone saying how much they love the product over and over again.

@Prodos

Unless you are planning to exclude major US distributors or provide a lower discount than even GW does to it's distributors it's likely it'll be 20% off at the get go with cheaper shipping.

As such I'm also curious as to your wording that Scipio pointed out.