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I've used him a few times for giggles. He can do decently as long as you:

A. Protect him like you protect any big "HEY SHOOT ME" target.

B. Not be me. I seriously lost Garlauch to a night goblin with a fireball ring. T.T

Definitly.

He was always a threat. Nobody wants a Lvl4 Tzeentch Wizard Dragon flying about their lines.

eugeniusgenx wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
No, not butthurt, tired of GW and their policies. WoC was a good army and it was a personal favorite, now I will probably shelve it along with WHFB as a whole, just as 6th edition ruined 40k for me this book has ended my WHFB gaming career. This book is just dumb, it is the worst WoC book ever made, plain and simple. GW saw that most people ran Tzeentch so they nerf hammered it and call it "balance" I call it making something crap so I have to spend more $$$ for new stuff. The problem is nothing in the book steps up and takes the place vacated by the old good stuff. Everything got more expensive and nothing got better. Keep falling for this ploy of GW, they don't care about balance or game play, they want your $$$ and they write their rules to coorespond to that goal. They have got my last $$$.

I have to say that I agree. To suggest that a power nerf is somehow balancing the game is ludicrous to say the least. Now when I play Skaven or DE the games will be shorter. No you can't do it like this unless you are releasing all the codexes at the SAME TIME, what is this World of Warcraft? No they ruined it. You can't use the balance argument because it will be months, even years before the others are all "balanced out" What a load of drek. Seriously it is force em to buy this crap to make their army work. It is crappy and it wrecks the hobby. The least they could do is make some of the new stuff hit harder. I feel bad for all the poor schmucks who bought the warshrine model before the book came out. Now that is true proof they were planning on ripping people off. They knew that they were going to nerf them so get the chosenstar people to buy some shrines and then nerf them. The game and the prices are just out of control. I am done with fantasy, even though I prefer it. So many hours, and now, my chosen are too expensive to field. Nice GW. Go spend your money.

Your chosen were to inexpensive beforehand anyways.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Cool. Is an all big beastie list viable? I saw chimeras are special...running Gaulrich, Throgg, trolls, chimeras, Shaggoths...just a big ol' monster mash.

Gaulrich is 100pts cheaper or so. Though otherwise unchanged. Throgg is more expensive. Trolls are much cheaper but just normal trolls (with AHW option). Chimeras are super good IMHO. You can buy them regen, a breath weapon, poison attacks, though they are really expensive. Shaggoth's are much cheaper than they were, but I don't think they are as good as Chimeras by a long shot. Though they have really good LD so they can work alone I guess.

I think this book clearly makes WoC top dog or very nearly. If ogres were before, and you can create almost an exactly duplicate of Ogres and Gutt Magic with Nurgle magic. Hellcannon isn't as good as an Ironblaster but they also have soo many other units and options. I can't believe people are complaining about it.

So my understanding is that the viable list you people see in this new WoC book is a knock off of Ogre's, wow. Just proves this book sucks ass. This is not supposed to be the Chaos Ogre army book, it is supposed to be the Warriors of Chaos book, and frankly the Warriors suck in this book. If I wanted to play Ogres I would f'ing play OK's.

 bigyounk wrote:
So my understanding is that the viable list you people see in this new WoC book is a knock off of Ogre's

You're right. You don't understand.

Then help oh mighty one, what is better about this book. (If you say its balanced I will beat my head against the keyboard)

I'm surprised to see so many people finding the book to be a nerf. I personally find the book to be even better, and I say this as a WoC player with 41,000 + points and is looking at it from many different perspectives.

The possibility of the mass monster lists are completely ridiculous. Yes, Warriors are pricey, and marauders took it probably harder than they needed to, but so much of the bigger stuff got cheaper and better, that it makes little differences.

Daemon Princes are beyond awesome now, and Chimera... well... yeah. I will be surprised if I don't start running 2 Chimeras minimum in most of my lists.

It really feels like people are looking at the few negatives of the book and treating it as though that was the entirety of the book simply because that's all they enjoyed playing. Some lists definitely took hits like Tzeentch magic or marauder heavy armies, but there are so many other possibilities that I find the book to be quite amazing now.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Interested in seeing how the new Shrine turns out to work. Has the potential to be uber-broken.

you think every army is broken. i've read the book and other than the re-rollable 1's on a char with a 3++ everything seems nice and balanced and maybe even a bit too toned down.

 bigyounk wrote:
WoC got a big time nerf.
--Lore of Tzeentch is useless. Over half of their spells will end up giving your target opponent Regen. Infernal Gateway does not work the same.
--Mark of Nurgle and Tzeentch took a nerf.
--Warshrines are now chariots and give EotG rolls as a bound spell and let you add a d6 and allow you which two die to use.
--Chosen are stupid expensive.
--Magic Items and Mutations are Meh at best.
--Knights have to pay for their enscrolled weapons.
--The new Slaughterbrutes are Meh.
--Most of the Special Characters got cheaper but stayed pretty much the same, Galrauch is no longer a Loremaster.
--Forsaken and Chariots are now Core.

Lore of Tzeentch is not useless. Yes they nerfed Gateway. But Glean magic is horrible when it works. As you can steal something like, I don't know, Invocation of Nehek. Used in combination with the new Curse of the Leper, it is now possible for a WoC army to push a massive block of T6 zombies around.

MoT and MoN are still awesome. The 5+ parry and -1 to hit, respectively, are still pretty good to have. They are good, just not excessively so.

Warshrines were chariots anyway IIRC. And the bound spell makes them better IMO. As with the new EotG chart, they won't be as useful as they were in the past, but when you bring out a demon prince on turn 4, then they suddenly seem worth it.

Of Course Chosen will be expensive They're Chosen. If they were cheap, why would anyone take warriors? You would see armies of chosen with tonnes of chaff as the core requirement would be made with dogs.

And the magic items have been changed. The world's smallest violin plays for whoever complains about that considering your mages have a 2+ armour save and a 3+ ward save and can reroll any rolls of a 1 on their ward save.

As for knights having to pay for ensorcelled weapons, it should be that way. As now, small units of 5 with lances could be viable. Even though ensorcelled weapons are still better.

Slaughterbrutes are meh? They are a giant monster who if you take a chaos lord to sit in the corner they suddenly go up from WS3 and low leadership to WS8 and LD 9. I think they have a place in certain lists.

The changes to most of the characters is moot, as no-one uses most of them.

I can see chariots being taken now, but not forsaken. The chance for them to screw themselves over makes them too risky.



So far, I've played one game against the new book. And it seems balanced and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

WoC needed the nerf, especially the Tzeentch-thingy, Marauder hordes etc. (does anyone honestly think Marauders were priced correctly before?).

Competitive players will be offended because their army is now clearly inferior to stuff like Lizardmen / Skaven / High Elves thus if you want to win tournaments, you now gotta switch to another army until they get a 8th edition army book now. Iirc, High Elves / Lizardmen are next.

...unless you play with restrictions. Which you absolutely should.

Overall, I'm glad to see that GW releases yet another balanced book in 8th. The downfall is that the release cycle is way too slow to create a balanced meta as it will take months until HE / Lizardmen get their 8th codex. Until then, there's only one change to the comp meta: WoC -> out, more Lizzies / Teclis.

Competitive players will be offended because their army is now clearly inferior to stuff like Lizardmen / Skaven / High Elves thus if you want to win tournaments, you now gotta switch to another army until they get a 8th edition army book now. Iirc, High Elves / Lizardmen are next.

Switch to another army to win lists? Really.

...unless you play with restrictions. Which you absolutely should.

Don't need it, if even WE can win top spots in tournaments with skillful playing.

 Sigvatr wrote:
WoC needed the nerf, especially the Tzeentch-thingy, Marauder hordes etc. (does anyone honestly think Marauders were priced correctly before?).

Competitive players will be offended because their army is now clearly inferior to stuff like Lizardmen / Skaven / High Elves thus if you want to win tournaments, you now gotta switch to another army until they get a 8th edition army book now. Iirc, High Elves / Lizardmen are next.

...unless you play with restrictions. Which you absolutely should.

Overall, I'm glad to see that GW releases yet another balanced book in 8th. The downfall is that the release cycle is way too slow to create a balanced meta as it will take months until HE / Lizardmen get their 8th codex. Until then, there's only one change to the comp meta: WoC -> out, more Lizzies / Teclis.

MoT, hasn't really been nerfed, you still get the 3+ ward save and now you get to reroll 1s when you fail it. That is an improvement. Marauder hordes were cheap and dirty, but the MoK makes them easy to deal with, force them to charge out of position, then hit them. The only things that NEEDED changing from the old book were Gateway, and puppet. Other than that, it was just a matter of balancing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Competitive players will be offended because their army is now clearly inferior to stuff like Lizardmen / Skaven / High Elves thus if you want to win tournaments, you now gotta switch to another army until they get a 8th edition army book now. Iirc, High Elves / Lizardmen are next.

Switch to another army to win lists? Really.

It's sad, but I've seen people do it. Get stomped by another army, start playing it yourself. Former Tomb Kings player sucked at tournaments, started playing Lizardmen, got into higher rankings immediately. The main downfall in 8th is 7th. Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Skaven, Teclis - those need an 8th codex asap as it's hilariously easy to cheese your way to top tier with those armies. The sad thing is, however, that by the time they got a new codex, 9th will hit and I fear the very same debacle happening again.

@thedarkavenger: Yes, that's my point. WoC needed a nerf and they rightfully got it. It's a good and smart move by GW I happily embrace. The thing is that other codices like Liz, Teclis, DE etc. still need to be re-balanced and it will take at least a year until HE and LM get nerfed. Until then, the amount of WoC players at tournaments will lower and the left slots will be filled with the other imbalanced armies.

With "Tzeentch-thingy" I referred to LoT being over the top, not the ward save bonus.

Yea imo they needed to Nerf Infernal Gateway

WAY too many people I knew relied on nuking an entire unit with gateway

Psst, other spells exist you know

I cast Infernal Gateway over 20 times during the course of my WoC career. Never ever sucked a unit into the warp

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Competitive players will be offended because their army is now clearly inferior to stuff like Lizardmen / Skaven / High Elves thus if you want to win tournaments, you now gotta switch to another army until they get a 8th edition army book now. Iirc, High Elves / Lizardmen are next.

Switch to another army to win lists? Really.

...unless you play with restrictions. Which you absolutely should.

Don't need it, if even WE can win top spots in tournaments with skillful playing.

don't listen to sigvatr. if you take a peek at his comment history it is nothing but whining about how this army is broken and that army is broken. when really, every army can be beaten.

the new chaos book is fine. they nerfed everything that should be nerfed and buffed some stuff to sell ugly models as is the GW norm.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Yea imo they needed to Nerf Infernal Gateway

WAY too many people I knew relied on nuking an entire unit with gateway

Psst, other spells exist you know

I really, really like the change. Instagib spells should not exist at all and the new change is a good change. Along with seeing the other spells being buffed, Chaos now seems to have three viable lores. I don't know what happened to GW, but their 8th codices are top-notch and make for very balanced armies. Just speed that release cycle up please ;D

How did Archaeon change?

 bigyounk wrote:

Yes because Skaven and Dark Elves are so balanced. I have played WoC since 3rd Edition, this book is crap. It took what was good in the last book and nerfed it and there was no flip side in making something else better. You call it balance I call it a crap book that went from one of the top 3 or 4 to being slightly better than Beastmen. This is the straw, good bye GW, it is pretty much Warmahordes for me from now on.

Sorry, but if everyone was like you when 8th came out there would be no Bretonnian players,
On the other hand i think your judging your Army book poorly, there are 3 criteria you should look at before believing in your own negativity:

1. Current 8th eddition army books,(real no brainer to see where GW is taking warhammer).
2. Army books people already claim are under powered, i.e dwarfs, beastmen and wood elves. If you find you can beat all these reliably your not doing too badly.
3.Books that regularly over-peform. This is more so you can see whats wrong with them, and therfore prepare for the worst, than moan about you not collecting one of them.

 brentyboi wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:

Yes because Skaven and Dark Elves are so balanced. I have played WoC since 3rd Edition, this book is crap. It took what was good in the last book and nerfed it and there was no flip side in making something else better. You call it balance I call it a crap book that went from one of the top 3 or 4 to being slightly better than Beastmen. This is the straw, good bye GW, it is pretty much Warmahordes for me from now on.

Sorry, but if everyone was like you when 8th came out there would be no Bretonnian players,
On the other hand i think your judging your Army book poorly, there are 3 criteria you should look at before believing in your own negativity:

1. Current 8th eddition army books,(real no brainer to see where GW is taking warhammer).
2. Army books people already claim are under powered, i.e dwarfs, beastmen and wood elves. If you find you can beat all these reliably your not doing too badly.
3.Books that regularly over-peform. This is more so you can see whats wrong with them, and therfore prepare for the worst, than moan about you not collecting one of them.

And those HE, Lizardmen, and DE players will all whine even more than you are when their update rolls around. At which time the game will finally be fairly balanced.

...on the other hand, giving your enemy regeneration with a spell is a pretty dumb move tbh.

Yeah, thats kinda wierd.

I complained loud about Flamers in the DoC update. I think it's a bit bleh.

I can't honestly believe people are saying WoC is not anything but top tier, however.

As for Forsaken "screwing themselves" they have a 1/6th chance of that and a 5/6th chance of getting a benefit from Regen to KB. They are a very random (Chaos!) unit, so I can see people wanting to stick with a more reliable, but it's not like they are O&G and punching each other with Animosity. It's just you're not sure what awesome benefit they will get or how many attacks.

And for a Core unit, they're pretty decent.

So lets be honest:

Marks:

-MoT for rank and file is still solid, for a caster it took a huge hit. Sorry but rerolling "1's" for channel vs +1 to cast is crap.
-MoN took a hit to, traded -1 BS & -1 WS when targeting to -1 to hit in Combat. Again it is a hit as the bane of WoC is shooty stuff not beat stick stuff.
-MoS still sucks
-MoK is the same

Lores of Magic:

Tzeentch is crap, I am sorry half of the spells give a benefit to the opponent and that is plain BS. All the "6" spells need to be tossed and reworked so no big deal when all the others fall in line, but for now the nerf to Infernal Gateway puts Tzeentch behind the power curve.

Nurgle is solid

Slannesh got better

Eye of the Gods:

Reworked and it is Meh. though the "2" and '12" result are blatant go buy more model rules. Also whoever put the "3" result in there needs to be pistol whipped, plain and simple.

Chaos Mutations:

Much like every other edition there are 2 or 3 that are useful and the others are Meh.

Characters:

Specials got cheaper but not a lot of changes otherwise.

Run of the mill Lords and Heroes are basically the same.

Daemon Princes are reasonable choices now.

Core:

Marauders and Warriors took nerfs with the Marauders really getting the shaft. Warriors are more expensive due to the pay per model for a mark. Not terrible, but the end result is it makes a small army smaller. Marauders are just not worth it.

Forsaken, hmm could be good, but could be bad. I don't like the idea of paying premium points for something that could suck. This is not O&G's.

Chariots are a welcome addition as are the Warhounds.

Specials

Chosen are unplayable, entirely to expensive.

Warshrine is garbage compared to what it was, but hey it got a shiney new model that is oversized and overpriced.

Knights are still Knights.

The Gorebeast Chariot is solid.

Rare's:

Big monsters are good but they are outclassed by other books monsters

One of the new variants of their new model is so hokey why would anyone pay the points for it.

Slaughterbeast, whoever said buy a Lord and stick him in a corner is an idiot. Who pays 210+ points to put a walking beat stick in a corner? Anyhow this monster is OK but as stated above it is outclassed by other monsters.

Notice I left out Ogres and trolls. They are good solid choices but this is a Warriors of Chaos book, it is not OK or O&G, they should be a side note in this book, but they will probably take center stage.

Again, as stated by me before, this is the WORST WoC book ever produced. It is a solid "D" compared to what is being played right now. Maybe 10 years from now when GW finally updates all the other books it might claw it's way back up to an "A", until then it is straight garbage.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I doubt 9th edition is closer than 2 years away.

If GW's release schedules for Fantasy and 40k for the last decade are anything to go by, 9th edition will be 2014 most likely.

How is this the worst WoC book? It makes WoC a really well-balanced army regarding balancing units. WoC still are a massive borefest, but that's how the army always played like. They needed some nerfs and Teclis / Lizardmen are the next to get the bat.

 bigyounk wrote:

Tzeentch is crap, I am sorry half of the spells give a benefit to the opponent and that is plain BS. All the "6" spells need to be tossed and reworked so no big deal when all the others fall in line, but for now the nerf to Infernal Gateway puts Tzeentch behind the power curve.

I've had one game against the new lore of Tzeentch. It is the opposite of crap. Sure some of the spells give you a 6+ regen, but, if we use a nice random number like 36, a sixth of that would still mean 30 dead models. And that is not counting for the possibility of flaming.

Add to that the possibility of stealing Invocation of nehek and summoning a wall of zombies. :S

Lore of Tzeentch isn't bent now. It is balanced.

 bigyounk wrote:
Slaughterbeast, whoever said buy a Lord and stick him in a corner is an idiot. Who pays 210+ points to put a walking beat stick in a corner? Anyhow this monster is OK but as stated above it is outclassed by other monsters.

And I meant that you keep the lord safe. He is a barebones model who is there to provide the boosts to the slaughterbeast. You don't want to risk him dying and suddenly having a big useless monster. As for it being outclassed, it fills a role other monsters don't. A high WS killing machine. I see this being a popular choice. Not as much as the mutalith though.

Marauders needed the nerfing. They were simply ridiculous before hand.