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I'm looking forward to.mounting my lord on a warshrine, it will look bloody awesome, thats reason enough to take one, not all warriors players are tourney players.

 bigyounk wrote:
This book is blatently designed to make you buy more models. They made everything people play crappy and made other stuff more viable. You call it "balance" I call it marketing. GW has you all snowballed, they don't care about "balance" they care about profits. If they cared about balance their book release would be faster or they would FAQ clearly. WoC was on par with what was out there, now it is not. As stated maybe 7 years from now it will be in the top tiers but for now it isn't. I have a tourney this weekend and I fully expect to go 0-3 with this book (barring some insane dice god interference).

Huh? You can now field almost double the points with Marauders and Warriors got more expensive too while still being the (arguably) core that packs the most dakka in melee. Marauders are viable too. If you say that those two choices are now "crappy" then, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking of.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
This book is blatently designed to make you buy more models. They made everything people play crappy and made other stuff more viable. You call it "balance" I call it marketing. GW has you all snowballed, they don't care about "balance" they care about profits. If they cared about balance their book release would be faster or they would FAQ clearly. WoC was on par with what was out there, now it is not. As stated maybe 7 years from now it will be in the top tiers but for now it isn't. I have a tourney this weekend and I fully expect to go 0-3 with this book (barring some insane dice god interference).

Huh? You can now field almost double the points with Marauders and Warriors got more expensive too while still being the (arguably) core that packs the most dakka in melee. Marauders are viable too. If you say that those two choices are now "crappy" then, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking of.

He's mad that he can't just take a ton of them, slap some cheap options on them and roll face by pushing them forward and destroying everything in melee

 Red_Zeke wrote:
Edit: @bigyounk- (Posts went up while I was typing)


I prefer the packaging like this- now when I get a new book, I don't have to inspect it to see if its been pre-handled by a bunch of gamers.

.

Just was at the store yesterday wanted to look up an empire witch hunter rule, flipping through the book and found that someone used an unopened condom as a book mark.

 Acardia wrote:

 Red_Zeke wrote:
Edit: @bigyounk- (Posts went up while I was typing)


I prefer the packaging like this- now when I get a new book, I don't have to inspect it to see if its been pre-handled by a bunch of gamers.

.

Just was at the store yesterday wanted to look up an empire witch hunter rule, flipping through the book and found that someone used an unopened condom as a book mark.

sorry, next time ill use it first. :-)

 Red_Zeke wrote:
Personally, I don't buy the "GW doesn't care about balance" argument. I think they're not very adept at making it happen, but I think they're trying. If the units in the book were all equally balanced, I think it sells *more* models as people try out various builds.

I somewhat disagree. I think GW is actually extremely smart in terms of balance. 40K is balanced very differently from WHFB. 40K seems to lurch from one OP race to another. And that actually helps them sell models. WHFB is extremely balanced IMHO. I'm an old gamer by most standards and I wouldn't be interested in it at all if it wasn't balanced. It reminds me of a lot of the purely tactical military miniature games that were popular maybe 20 years ago. There was a slew of them created by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Hill And then the internet came and people stopped playing as much.

Chaos armor can be made by both, it's just usually granted to strong warriors, but sometimes the gods aren't kind enough to gift them.

They took out any reference to CD making them. However, the Tamurkhan book still has a listing that says they barter armor to the warriors for slaves. Still, they can't make all that much. They are a pretty small (PUN) race.

Also, please stop feeding the chaos trolls.

Hello everyone

Knight, warriors and Marauders had no business being changed. I really can't stand the new changes. Our already outnumbered army will be even more outnumbered now :(

We did get a few cool new units, like skull crushers, but at the outrageous point cost, you can't field more than a few, and it will take them 3 rounds to make an enemy block not stubborn anymore.

The Warshrines probably had to be changed, but there is no reason Marauders, which did so very easily, had to double in points.

Played my first game with them today and got tabled. New book is garbage on an epic level.

 bigyounk wrote:
Played my first game with them today and got tabled. New book is garbage on an epic level.

Details of the game and lists used? I just don't buy it as being "garbage on an epic level". On paper, I think its somewhere between a little worse and a little better- not way outside the bell curve.

 bigyounk wrote:
Played my first game with them today and got tabled. New book is garbage on an epic level.

Ok look, I understand you're kinda pissed, but this is getting a little silly. o.O

Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

As a side note, I have noticed that on this sites swap section and a few other sites I peruse, there is NO ONE wanting to get WoC. Usually after a book release people are clamoring for the new army. That alone speaks volumes as to how bad this book is.

Well if you played Bretonnians with only 3 units of warriors you are asking to be hurt. Knights outrank on the charge and with no chaff to chew on the warriors are going to get it.

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

I don't customize lists like most jackass power gamers. I build all comers, kinda the reason I do well at tournaments.

Then why not take a BSB? Surely that would be welcome in a list of this kind, re-rollable ld saves have won me many games.

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

It is pretty much been my staple list since, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition. It has never been so soundly trashed, EVER. I like blocks of Warriors, I don't like Ogres, Trolls, Monsters......oh all the stuff that is good in a WARRIORS of Chaos book. Notice I emphasized Warriors. As stated I have a tournament this Saturday, they probably will be the last WHFB games I play until the next WoC book in 10 years or so.

 bigyounk wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

It is pretty much been my staple list since, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition. It has never been so soundly trashed, EVER. I like blocks of Warriors, I don't like Ogres, Trolls, Monsters......oh all the stuff that is good in a WARRIORS of Chaos book. Notice I emphasized Warriors. As stated I have a tournament this Saturday, they probably will be the last WHFB games I play until the next WoC book in 10 years or so.

As an honest suggestion, you seem like you have a lot invested in this and could stand to step back for a bit until you're less angry over the book and what you think is wrong with it. A fresh look later on might give you new light. I'm not saying whether the book is great or terrible, I just don't think the attitude you have towards it right now is going to end in anything but anger and disappointment for you.

Does the Hellcannon still work like a monster and handler? I know it has a 5+ ward save now, is this in addition to having to roll 1-4 to hit the Hellcannon, and not the chaos dorf crew?

welshhoppo wrote:
Then why not take a BSB? Surely that would be welcome in a list of this kind, re-rollable ld saves have won me many games.

Tzeentch BSB was there, it was the first unit to break and run. Oh did I mention my Chaos Lord of Tzeentch was with him. Game was a real eye opener.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evertras wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

It is pretty much been my staple list since, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition. It has never been so soundly trashed, EVER. I like blocks of Warriors, I don't like Ogres, Trolls, Monsters......oh all the stuff that is good in a WARRIORS of Chaos book. Notice I emphasized Warriors. As stated I have a tournament this Saturday, they probably will be the last WHFB games I play until the next WoC book in 10 years or so.

As an honest suggestion, you seem like you have a lot invested in this and could stand to step back for a bit until you're less angry over the book and what you think is wrong with it. A fresh look later on might give you new light. I'm not saying whether the book is great or terrible, I just don't think the attitude you have towards it right now is going to end in anything but anger and disappointment for you.

You may be right as I am still contemplating throwing it in the trash, literally, as we speak. I have never been this pissed and disgusted by any GW release, and I played Dark Angels throughout the last edition with that truly horrendous codex.

hey bigyounk, you gonna sell your WoC? I may be interested in buying!

 Red_Zeke wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played my first game with them today and got tabled. New book is garbage on an epic level.

Details of the game and lists used? I just don't buy it as being "garbage on an epic level". On paper, I think its somewhere between a little worse and a little better- not way outside the bell curve.

Again. Please don't feed the chaos trolls. It should be in tactics or replays, anyway.

 bigyounk wrote:
Played my first game with them today and got tabled. New book is garbage on an epic level.

Read it here first, good players always blame the rules!

Seriously, with all due respect, but the less players like you we have at tournaments, the better for the overall atmosphere. I'm really tired of people with your "OMG I AM A GOD TIER GENERAL BUT MY ARMY BOOK SUCKS" attitude and giving ye 0 fairness points.

I'm playing a 100% Goblin army so tell me about how much WoC suck. Please.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
hey bigyounk, you gonna sell your WoC? I may be interested in buying!

I very well may be interested.

 bigyounk wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

It is pretty much been my staple list since, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition. It has never been so soundly trashed, EVER. I like blocks of Warriors, I don't like Ogres, Trolls, Monsters......oh all the stuff that is good in a WARRIORS of Chaos book. Notice I emphasized Warriors. As stated I have a tournament this Saturday, they probably will be the last WHFB games I play until the next WoC book in 10 years or so.

So find a new book. I'm sorry but the way you like to play is spamming one unit. It worked in previous edition. But from what I remember the WoC book has changed completely everytime that WoC has been released. Its because this is Chaos. I get your complaints I really do. But its been a week. Adapt and move forward. Switch to chariots/forsaken for core. Try out the new monsters as special. Embrace the strengths rather than complaining about it.

I'm sorry, your not gonna get any sympathy from me. I've been wanting Variety for chaos for a long time.

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

It is pretty much been my staple list since, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition. It has never been so soundly trashed, EVER. I like blocks of Warriors, I don't like Ogres, Trolls, Monsters......oh all the stuff that is good in a WARRIORS of Chaos book. Notice I emphasized Warriors. As stated I have a tournament this Saturday, they probably will be the last WHFB games I play until the next WoC book in 10 years or so.

So find a new book. I'm sorry but the way you like to play is spamming one unit. It worked in previous edition. But from what I remember the WoC book has changed completely everytime that WoC has been released. Its because this is Chaos. I get your complaints I really do. But its been a week. Adapt and move forward. Switch to chariots/forsaken for core. Try out the new monsters as special. Embrace the strengths rather than complaining about it.

Not giving GW another dime, sorry. This book was about making folks part with more money to get the new good stuff by making the old stuff crap. I am tired of falling for that trap. I am done with GW as a whole. I will keep what I have, sell any extras I may have and buy nothing new from them from now on.

I'm sorry, your not gonna get any sympathy from me. I've been wanting Variety for chaos for a long time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bigyounk wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
Played Bretonians, used 3 blocks of Warriors, a warshrine, Knights, Lvl 4 Nurgle Lord and a few other characters. The list is very close to what I won round 2 of the last 'Ard boyz tourney. Biggest change was the dumping of the CRAPTASTIC Tzeentch magic in favor of Nurgle. Due to the point increase of the Warriors I had to dump my chariot. I got charged, I broke and ran away, end of game. It was all I could do to not walk the army to the trash can and dump it.

So let me get this straight. You tried to play a list that worked in the last book... with a different book... and you complain that you got tabled?

You didn't use any of the strengths of the new book to your advantage...

Why would you cut your chariot? Now that chariots are core, I don't see your reasoning at all.

It is pretty much been my staple list since, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition. It has never been so soundly trashed, EVER. I like blocks of Warriors, I don't like Ogres, Trolls, Monsters......oh all the stuff that is good in a WARRIORS of Chaos book. Notice I emphasized Warriors. As stated I have a tournament this Saturday, they probably will be the last WHFB games I play until the next WoC book in 10 years or so.

So find a new book. I'm sorry but the way you like to play is spamming one unit. It worked in previous edition. But from what I remember the WoC book has changed completely everytime that WoC has been released. Its because this is Chaos. I get your complaints I really do. But its been a week. Adapt and move forward. Switch to chariots/forsaken for core. Try out the new monsters as special. Embrace the strengths rather than complaining about it.

Not giving GW another dime, sorry. This book was about making folks part with more money to get the new good stuff by making the old stuff crap. I am tired of falling for that trap. I am done with GW as a whole. I will keep what I have, sell any extras I may have and buy nothing new from them from now on.

I'm sorry, your not gonna get any sympathy from me. I've been wanting Variety for chaos for a long time.

Don't want nor need your sympathy.

I need to get some popcorn, this thread is getting pretty funny

unless someone here is being dead serious

 kenshin620 wrote:
I need to get some popcorn, this thread is getting pretty funny

unless someone here is being dead serious

Here ya go. *gets popcorn for himself*


edited.
Reds8n

Not giving GW another dime, sorry. This book was about making folks part with more money to get the new good stuff by making the old stuff crap. I am tired of falling for that trap. I am done with GW as a whole. I will keep what I have, sell any extras I may have and buy nothing new from them from now on.

Then don't. Use other models to represent things. Chimera's are very popular in fantasy. I'm sure theres other, cheaper options. There's converting. There's mantic. There's ebay. There's OOP GW. There's a buttload of other companies selling products that could be used for this list, or for other games as well. Expanding your options does nothing but help yourself.

Don't want nor need your sympathy.

Then stop crying.

Hey e'rrybody- I've made it clear I strongly disagree with bigyounk's take on the latest book, but ain't no need for personal attacks.

@bigyounk: I'm surprised blocks of foot warriors worked for you in 6th and 7th. Those were some days where slow foot blocks were in a really bad way. I should know- I played Dwarfs.

I don't know how you chalk up a single game's result to purely being the book. (Edit: And as a side note- EVERYone gets tabled at some point. It is shocking to me that you could have played since 3rd/4th edition and not lost this bad at least a couple times.) My experience with Brets is that once that charge is over, you can wham 'em back pretty hard. And with a Tzeentch lord kitted for foot blocks (3+ ward with re-roll 1s and a stubborn cap), you oughta hold against just about anything. Once they stick, blast that Nurgle sorceror's vortex through their blocks- that'll ruin their day pretty dang quick.

Also, there's a world of difference between someone who "customize[s] lists like most jackass power gamers" and someone who changes their list when the army book changes.

You don't seem like you can be convinced, and I guess its not my job to do so, but as I've said, I think you're off base and overreacting to a lot of these changes. (Out of curiosity- since I'm in Tejas too- where are you at? Houston/San Antonio/Dallas? I'm guessing you're not in Austin, since I don't recognize your list/user name. PM if you'd rather keep it private- just curious.)

I'd second Evertras in saying you might just need a breather to come at this with a fresh set of eyes. And while you do- keep an eye open, I think you're going to see some decent successes from this book.

See, the main point isn't the usual "My former models are now useless!" issues. Warriors are still very viable, even Marauders to a lesser degree. They even became more expensive thus you do not even need to stock up on models. Everyone had a war shrine as well. Chaos Knights are pretty much the same as before.

Just wait for the new Lizardmen codex as Lizardmen are a lot more overpowered than WoC. Just imagine the massive butthurt that will flood internet forums all over the world

I'm eagerly waiting.