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I just saw the topic "Lack of Ship Games" and it reminded me that I've always like the idea of an Aircraft based table top game.

Does anyone know of any such games?

Years ago I invented a game using Epic 40k aircraft miniatures for a dogfighting style table top game, very much inspired by WW2 style dogfights and bombing runs, never really pursued it because I didn't really have anyone to test it with and play it with.

Um..... Aeronautica Imperialis?

It sounds like what you invented was very similar to Forge World's current game of Epic-scale aircraft combat

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Epic-40000/Rule__and_Accessories/AERONAUTICA-IMPERIALIS.html

Wings of Glory, Check Your 6, and Hind Commander.

Blue Max, if you can find it, is an ace Great War aeroplane game.

OOP for years, unfortunately.

Bag the Hun is a pretty good WW2 game, and has a sci-fi mod available (look in the Scramble! supplement.

http://toofatlardies.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14

Wings of War, Aerodrome, X-wing (maybe the mechanics, less the setting) Check Your Six, Canvas Eagles.

Pretty much the same comments as in the Naval thread - and oddly about the same portion of gamers (though between the coast and the Air Force bases - I have a lot of retired military and related types to deal with).

While it isn't my cup-o-tea, we play Check Your 6 from time to time. Also, Luft Krieg and the Battletech Air rules (forget the name of those...). There is also a set of rules which cover fantasy air combat (dragons, griffons and the like) - though again, the actual names of those rules are not really on the top of my head.

yeah,

X-wing.
X-wing.
X-wing.
X-wing.
X-wing.
X-wing.

Panic...

Sean, I think you are thinking of Aerotech. Unfortunately I found that one pretty horrible, and I love Battletech!

xraytango wrote:
Canvas Eagles.

This. I love Canvas Eagles. Sopwith Camels are amazing fun.

Dystopian Wars can handle all-aircraft fights, or mixed combats. The aircraft system is somewhat 'simplistic' due to the mixed-environment support (there's only a couple 'levels' of altitude, for example) but it's playable, if a bit based around rolling buckets of dice at times.

Basic 'setup' is the game is based around various-sized ships/aircraft/land-tanks with smaller tokens for fighter craft.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Um..... Aeronautica Imperialis?

It sounds like what you invented was very similar to Forge World's current game of Epic-scale aircraft combat

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Epic-40000/Rule__and_Accessories/AERONAUTICA-IMPERIALIS.html

Ha! Somehow I never noticed that game existed. I saw the book on their website long ago but it never clicked that it was rules for a aircraft based game, I must have just assumed it was rules for FW aircraft in regular 40k games.

Has anyone played that before? I already have a bunch of epic 40k ork aircraft and a few imperial aircraft. The resin FW models look reasonably expensive though, and one review I read said they have stopped supporting it with updates and new models.

Check Your 6 looks interesting, though it looks a bit complicated to play with larger formations with more than a few aircraft.

Does anyone have specific recommendations on which games would be good to try first given that I currently don't know anyone who plays any of them so would have to gather other people to join in?

People are usually attracted first by the background rather than rules, especially if not hardcore wargamers.

Great War flying games offer the chance to use a variety of colourful and interesting planes and fly proper dogfights, and there were aces from many nations and chivalry and so on. I think it would be a good choice.

Another factor is available models. There are heaps of WW1 and WW2 plane models on the market. Star Wars are harder to get hold of.

I should pick the era first, then look for rules. Choose rules which are relatively simple to learn.

Waaaaaay back, Jervis suggested that he wanted to make an aircraft game which was based more on psychology of squadrons, etc, than individual dogfighting skill.

Obviously, GW then pulled the plug on Specialist Games, and Aeronautica Imperialis has none of this (IIRC) but I always thought it sounded interesting. Do any games cover this sort of thing?

Axis and Allies Angels 20. Yes, it's pre-paints in random boxes, but I got the game and 1 box of boosters and got all but 1 plane.. or was it all of the planes?

Apparently the booster boxes are packed in a less-random way. When I get around to it. I'll just overpaint the prepaints..

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/121657/axis-allies-air-force-miniatures-angels-20

I can't say I've read of "psychology of squadrons" being an important factor in tactical air combat.

I would be interested to know if anyone had any information on the topic.

I'm not an aircraft guy, but I found Wings of War (WWI; haven't tried their WWII version), with their minis, to be easy to play and quite fun.

I'm actually very tempted by Aeronautica Imperialis as from reading up on it, it does seem quite similar to the game I invented back in the late 90's using 3rd edition Epic 40k models. But the cost is a bit mind blowing. If I buy a decent sized force of Imperials it's about 100-150 pounds, a decent sized Ork force would be another 100-150 pounds, so 200-300 pounds just to get 2 competing forces, ouch. I'm impressed by the detail of the miniatures, but wow, that's a bit much.

I'll have a look at some of the WW2 games. Sci-fi or WW2 would be my preference.

Federation Commander/ Starfleet Battles.

Only issue- Bring your lunch.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Federation Commander/ Starfleet Battles.

Only issue- Bring your lunch.

Not too sure this suggestion meets the 'fighter combat' intent of what he is looking for....

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm actually very tempted by Aeronautica Imperialis as from reading up on it, it does seem quite similar to the game I invented back in the late 90's using 3rd edition Epic 40k models. But the cost is a bit mind blowing. If I buy a decent sized force of Imperials it's about 100-150 pounds, a decent sized Ork force would be another 100-150 pounds, so 200-300 pounds just to get 2 competing forces, ouch. I'm impressed by the detail of the miniatures, but wow, that's a bit much.

That's nothing. Forget your silly little epic-scale models, real men play 40k-scale AI.

There's not much to stop you playing AI (and I have) with "normal" scale epic models rather than the forgeworld high price ones. I think you can even buy the stands separately.

Graphite wrote:
There's not much to stop you playing AI (and I have) with "normal" scale epic models rather than the forgeworld high price ones. I think you can even buy the stands separately.

Of course that's not really helping very much. A pack of four Thunderbolts from GW is $25, add in $2 each for the AI bases and you're spending $35 for ancient horrible metal models. Or you could just pay $40 to get four FW Thunderbolts which are far superior models.

(Or you could pay $550, scratchbuild some AI bases, and get four 40k-scale Thunderbolts instead.)

CptJake wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
Federation Commander/ Starfleet Battles.

Only issue- Bring your lunch.

Not too sure this suggestion meets the 'fighter combat' intent of what he is looking for....

That's ok, I was looking something more based on manoeuvring more, but I'll look in to those as well I'm actually away from home for work for a while so it'll be a while before I actually get around to buying anything (unless it's something that saves me significant money buying in the US compared to Oz ).

Graphite wrote:There's not much to stop you playing AI (and I have) with "normal" scale epic models rather than the forgeworld high price ones. I think you can even buy the stands separately.

Yeah, I have a few GW epic ork fighters that I could use, but looking at the current prices on the GW site, FW isn't much more expensive and is vastly superior models. Factoring in the cost of the bases, most GW fighter type aircraft add up to about 5 pounds each (3 models for 12.3 points or 4 models for 15.5 + 1.2 pounds for the bases), FW ones about 6.5 pounds (packs of 2 for 13 pounds), and given the quality difference, I'd rather just pay the little bit extra for FW models. The only ones where GW is significantly cheaper is on the Marauders, but then the FW Marauders look a LOT nicer, lol.

Peregrine wrote:That's nothing. Forget your silly little epic-scale models, real men play 40k-scale AI.

Peregrine wrote:(Or you could pay $550, scratchbuild some AI bases, and get four 40k-scale Thunderbolts instead.)

Indeed, that would be nice, but I'd have no one to play against I really like the 40k scale flyers... but the cost is insane when you think an 85 pound Thunderbolt is about the same size as a 1:48 F-16 model which you could find for less than a quarter the price and significantly more detailed and far less hassle being plastic rather than resin, lol.

Good grief. I hadn't realised that GW vs. Forgeworld had gone that far out of whack. It just had a bunch of Fighta Bombers already....

Let me know if you have any questions about AI, I still manage to play it somewhat regularly. Cracking fun and one of GW/FW's most tactically challenging games. It is super easy to learn, but tough to master.

The only thing it is lacking is a "true" experience system for pilots, but they do have two different models for campaigns in the AI and Tactica Aeronuatica books. The other disadvantage is that the game is dead from a FW support standpoint. Warwick Kinrade, the designer, has moved on to other things.

However, you can see a lot of fan support and expansion; including an annual online campaign at the Airspace Forum. You can find new aircraft stats and more advanced rules in the War Room sticky section.

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Airspace/index.php?c=1

The other huge disadvantage is the $$$. However, you can find what you need to play the basics by looking around, and scratchbuilding AI aircraft is easier than you would think. Especially Chaos and OrKs.

It's good to see the game has some fan support. I do really like the look of it and could see myself painting swarms of thunderbolts and ork fightas if they weren't 6.5 pounds each, lol.

One question about AI, how many planes do you typically have per side and how long does a game typically last (half an hour, an hour, and evening?). Does it scale well to large squadrons (most squadrons I see aren't that large)?

Well, the focus game is focused on individual aircraft, so most games are relatively smaller, and not Squadron on Squadron actions. However, in the Batreps section of the Airspace Campaigns, I have seen games with Planes numbering in the double-digits per side or multiple Super-Heavies in play. The biggest game I have played personally is 10 or so planes per side, and it went smoothly.

Game Length can vary a lot. For example a small two on two dogfight can take 30 minutes -to an hour. I have seen games end after three turns. Of course, I have also seen the same set-up last the full 12 until the mandatory disengagement as both players manuevered around for the kill shot. No surprise but the more planes you pit against each other, the longer it takes.

So, you can tailor the game to the length of time you have to play. Aircraft can essentially choose to try and disengage and get ot a board edge at any time.

I think one of my favorite parts is that it is not I-Go-You-Go, but alternate activation, so the order you ativate and move aircraft really matters a lot and adds to the tactile play. Plus, you aren't sitting around waiting to play, you are always doing stuff and making mental calculations. Plus, the fact that you choose your manuever before anyone does anything makes you try to anticiapte what your opponent will do, and try to choose actions to thwart them and help you.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm not an aircraft guy, but I found Wings of War (WWI; haven't tried their WWII version), with their minis, to be easy to play and quite fun.

I don't care for the WWII version, but we play the WWI version quite a bit. Easy to play. Fun beer and pretzels game. Also smack talk. Lots of smack talk.

I'd recommend checking out AirFrame from Precinct Omega. The rules PDF cost £1. They play super fast. My first learning game was a squadron on squadron and took under 45 minutes.

http://www.precinctomega.co.uk/

There's a mecha game that uses the same system and is compatible with AirFrame as well.