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Unreasonable I'm not sure sure. But it won't do much good. Sure you can walk away if you aren't happy with the company but that is easier said than done. Looking at my hobby room I have no fewer than 6 complete/playable armies. My Orks are over 10K points and my IG is around 8K of built/painted minis. I have at least 2-3 K points for each of those sitting in boxes on my shelf waiting for me to get to them. My other armies hover around the 3K point range in models alone.

I started adding up the dollar value of what I have and quit when my Sisters army alone broke $2,000 USD. Sadly I've seen to cost of many GW kits rise to more than double what I originally paid for them.

It has hit me that you can almost treat those boxes as an investment. I don't think I could have put $10.00 in a bank account 10 years ago and there would be $20.00 in it today. I could have bought a bozx of Boyz for that and sell them today for around 20.

Why the hell would you hate a miniatures company? Are they coming to your house and raping your wife and shooting your kids? Are they screwing you over at work? Are they poisoning you or the planet with their greasy food? No, of course they aren't! GW have about as much impact on your life as any other lifestyle brand - you don't need it, but you do because you like their stuff. It makes as much sense as hating - I don't know - Maped because their sharpeners are too damn expensive, god damn it!

It's unreasonable to hate any company. If you don't care for their ethical or business practices, simply spending your money elsewhere is a lot more effective than seething pools of hatred.

 kenshin620 wrote:

Basically what the title suggest, is it unreasonable to actually "hate" a miniature company assuming they have done no technical "wrongs" like stealing or other illegal activities?

Given that I view baseless threats, C&D's, and other legal bullying/extortion more morally wrong than recasting, just because something itsnt "technically" illegal doesnt make it not wrong, or not worse than something that technically is. Hate is too strong a word, but GW has a really crappy attitude I just dont like, and dont support.

It's unreasonable to hate anything.

Hate is not the opposite of love. Apathy is.

Love and Hate are essentially the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Sure you can walk away if you aren't happy with the company but that is easier said than done.

Might I introduce you to the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

Mierce Miniatures is owned by Rob Lane.
Rob Lane owned Maelstrom Games
Maelstrom Games deliberately stole money from multiple people.
People hate Mierce Miniatures because it is owned by a person who stole from them.
That is a reason to hate. Hating a company because they are charging $5 for a piece of plastic? That is misdirected and foolish.

silent25 wrote:
Mierce Miniatures is owned by Rob Lane.
Rob Lane owned Maelstrom Games
Maelstrom Games deliberately stole money from multiple people.
People hate Mierce Miniatures because it is owned by a person who stole from them.
That is a reason to hate.

No, that's a reason to ignore them and not do business with them.

I think the term hate is being liberally applied in terms of the dissatisfaction with GW. Many people are exasperated, disappointed, frustrated, annoyed and/or fed up with GW. I rarely see the word hate used by the people saying things against the company, but those who defend it tend to characterize complaints as hate.

It has always been fashionable to 'hate' GW in wargaming circles.

If anything the dislike is mild today in comparison to what it was in the past. when GW gamers were banned from clubs, and mention of the games were verbotten in the wargaming press.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Basically what the title suggest, is it unreasonable to actually "hate" a miniature company assuming they have done no technical "wrongs" like stealing or other illegal activities?

Why must someone (or something) have commented technical "wrongs" for one to dislike it? Is there a threshold or a quota of requirements a person or entity must fill before they become eligible for "hatred"?

Hatred seems a little too emotionally charged for a faceless entity as a corporation. Hatred to me suggests a personal element that doesn't seem appropriate towards corporate entities. An intense dislike of a company due to their ethical/business/other practices seems just fine to me, but hatred suggests something stronger to me.

That's a good point grabthar. Using the word 'hate' the wrong way to go about it. Nothing's that black and white.

Of course not.
I have been dealing with GW and their antics (which to be fair did not really get exceptionally bad until toward the end of the RT days with the "lead scare", the first example of cynically planned osolecence as a business tactic in the release of the last two RT books, etc..) since the fall of '89. I think it's unreasonable NOT to hate GW providing one has the base of experience to form an opinon from that is extensive as mine. I would give a list of the various issues that have popped up over the years that fueld that view, but you have heard it all before...and I'd run over the character limit for a post anyway!

Hate gets a bad rap due to it's popular association in the media with "hate groups", "hate crimes", genocide and other extreme crimes, etc. But hate is nothing more than just a strong or intense dislike of somehthing or someone. It's a normal human emotion that we all experience. It's not a negative thing. It's not a positive thing. It's just part of being human. I have to roll my eyes when I see someone saying sanctimonious things like "I don't hate anyone or anything.". They are lying to themselves and I can garantee that if you sat down and closely questioned every one of those "I don't hate" people, you would find something or someone that they do in fact hate.

I hate lots of things. I hate eggs served alone as a food item. (especially "over easy", which makes me physically sick to look at them) I hate illegal drugs. I hate whole groups of people such as convicted felons. (I've been in criminal justice as a profession most of my adult life, so that is no suprise) I hate individuals too, be they people I know such as the superivisor at my job who is two steps above my postiion or individuals I have never met and only know by reputation such as Robert Mugabe. I hate some historical figures, such as Stalin. I hate websites like 4chan and NABLA.com. I hate ways of thinking and ideologies such as Cultural Marxism and the horriffic destructive effect it has had upon the West since the end of WW2. And I also hate Games Workshop....and there is nothing wrong or unnatural about that.

Finally, I see that more than one person has brought up the tired old "why do you still play it if you hate GW" line. It is quite possible to still enjoy a product or service while still holding a negative opinon about the person or group that produced it. I've said this before, but I'll repeat it here. It's no secret my political and social views are pretty far right. I'm an old school Buckley and Buchanan style Paleo-Conservative living in a country were the majority of the media and entertainment industry is dominated by people who hold leftist views. If I were to sustain a private boycott of anything that was produced by or featured someone who's views I found repugant, I would quickly find myself unable to turn on the TV (not hat I watch much TV anyway...two or three hours a week on average..but the point remains) or enjoy my customary bi-monthly "dinner and a movie" date night with Mrs. Trench Raider. The same is true for GW. I despise them as a company, but I still enjoy playing 40k and have spent entirely too much time and money in the last 20+ years to simply drop it in a fit of moral outrage. So I continue to play, all the while keeping in mind what GW is and what their history has been. The difference is that I make a practice of giving rhem as little money as humanly possible. and support things that harm them as a company such as recasting and file sharing of their books, etc.

TR

I don't think it's unreasonable. Now, I have never hated on a company because the mini's sucked, but it's perfectly okay to hate a company because they scammed you, price too high, etc.

The way I look at it is that there is practically no other company that I deal with in my day to day life that seems to actively try to make me dislike them.

My car is $32,000 and I have had nothing but good experiences with the company that made it and would glady drop another $32,000 or more when the time comes to get a new one. My phone company actively tries to save me money, same as my insurance. My airsoft rifles need very little in the way of add ons and the fields I play on are well costed. Best buy and Chapters give me savings cards. My gym gives me free sessions and gives awesome discounts. So why is it GW hates having me as a customer? I loved playing and painting 40K, but for some reason GW constantly likes to shove in say "no no no, thats now useless, these need to be more expensive, you must buy this to stay current, that story is now lame, and we are going to charge you double because we can".

Point is, the amount of money, work, and love we put into this game isnt being handled by people that give a anymore.

Rick Priestly said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!

This is the man that invented the game, and even he thinks the company is a bunch of money grubbin dicks.

 Ravenous D wrote:
The way I look at it is that there is practically no other company that I deal with in my day to day life that seems to actively try to make me dislike them.
.

Very well put and I agree. Maybe add a couple of record labels to the list.

Rick Priestly said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!

This is the man that invented the game, and even he thinks the company is a bunch of money grubbin dicks.

Well put, and that's a pretty strong opinion by a man who should know. His views and opinion on the matter should carry a lot of weight. The fact is that the GW of today bears very little resemblance to the GW of it's glory years (ie the late '80s to the early '90s). Are some things better? Sure. But at the same time are alot of things worse. Absolutely.

Ok, ok. That's enough of that. Back to the topic of the thread: hate and is it reasoanble to hate a game company.

TR

I can empathize with people who feel so strongly about what most people would consider a silly little game. Frankly because for some people it is not a silly little game...

I equate it to music fans who feel betrayed when their favorite band "sells out". When people have countless hours invested in something, they feel injured when the status quo changes. Whether that is GW botching the rules, changing the back story, or pricing consumers out of the market... its the same result. The more someone has invested in something the more they have to lose if it goes bad.

 CageUF wrote:
I can empathize with people who feel so strongly about what most people would consider a silly little game. Frankly because for some people it is not a silly little game...

I equate it to music fans who feel betrayed when their favorite band "sells out". When people have countless hours invested in something, they feel injured when the status quo changes. Whether that is GW botching the rules, changing the back story, or pricing consumers out of the market... its the same result. The more someone has invested in something the more they have to lose if it goes bad.

I agree, and to add on to it; its no longer a silly little game when you have more then $10,000 and thousands of hours of labour invested.

 CageUF wrote:

I equate it to music fans who feel betrayed when their favorite band "sells out". When people have countless hours invested in something, they feel injured when the status quo changes. .

Status Quo never change!

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 CageUF wrote:

I equate it to music fans who feel betrayed when their favorite band "sells out". When people have countless hours invested in something, they feel injured when the status quo changes. .

Status Quo never change!

The Quo will always be awesome! Although, not quite up there with Dire Straits, who I always used to mix them up with.

 kenshin620 wrote:

Basically what the title suggest, is it unreasonable to actually "hate" a miniature company assuming they have done no technical "wrongs" like stealing or other illegal activities?

Yes. A company is just a concept. A collection of people.

What you want to hate are the people. Find out their names. Find out where they live. Find out their food allergies. Find out how to cover up peanut oil in chocolate. Find out if they have kids and pets. Find out if they have wives. Do they argue with their wife a lot? Do their wives like to travel?

Trench-Raider is my new hero.

Let that Hate flow.... embrace it.


I hate them. With my last breath, I spit at thee. GW!!!!!

Flattery will get you no where, Grot 6.

But seriously, it's not about embracing it. It's about being realistic about human nature and recoginizing that human emotions (all of them...not just the nice ones) are normal.

TR

Grrrr! I hates people what hates me hating! Grrrr!

The Auld Grump, and you! Yes, you, on the left! No! The other left! Yes, you! I hate you!

 kenshin620 wrote:
I guess this could be stretched to all types of companies but I found this post from TMP on a topic about warhammer and I found it quite interesting. What does Dakka think?

Basically what the title suggest, is it unreasonable to actually "hate" a miniature company assuming they have done no technical "wrongs" like stealing or other illegal activities?

Spoiler:

Correct billthecat, The people that are unhappy with the product/company can just walk away -- I so do not understand the emotions that go into "hating" a toy soldier company? I understand hating poverty, injustice, terrorrisim, child molesters etc,etc,etc -- but a soldier company?
They do not provide food,insulin, heart medice,warmth,protection,etc,etc.

As far as finecast -- my suspicion is that if it was such a huge failure they would have already backed off by now -- even coke --a huge firm did so some years back with their "new coke.

"The only god to GW is shareholders" I think that it just may be the law that they listen to shareholders?
What I strongly suspect is that in the beginnig they hit "lightning in a bottle" and it will never be replicated?

They have their own retail outlets, public support from non hobbyist,copyrights,financial backing,etc,etc,etc
Very hard to reproduce?

All of this of course is MHO.

This begs the question though: what about companies that have "done... technical "wrongs" like stealing or other illegal activities"?

Just on this sub-forum there are several examples where it is legitimately open to question whether Games Workshop (for example) has acted in ways that are in breech of ethical behavior (for example, improperly asserting rights under Intellectual Property laws, or asserting ownership over property that they do not in fact own).

"Hate" seems a bit strong for an emotion, but surely it's possible and indeed, may be proper, to have an intense dislike bordering on hate for a company that acts in violation of the law or ethics.

Hate is a common response sometimes necessary for people to be able to let go of something they are very attached to.

People get attached to their miniatures. This is to be expected because we spend so much time making the money to buy them, researching, putting them together, painting them, etc. They are a part of your life and usually bring some level of happiness.

When you start seeing the source of that happiness (GW) do inane things that impact your ability to derive pleasure from this activity there are several emotions you'll go through. Ranging from simple confusion on up to revulsion, hate and eventually apathy.

People who have little or no emotional connection to this activity will either ignore developments or simply shake their head and walk away.

However, those that are emotionally connected will have to go through various steps in order to disengage. Hate is just one of those steps and it's not even the last one; the last one is apathy. When you hate something you are still connected and have an intense desire (and hope) for the thing to change and you will vent your frustration in various forms when it doesn't. However, once you've reached the stage of apathy then you'll walk away.

-----
We see a lot of "rage quitters". They get upset and walk away, albeit temporarily. It's rare for a rage quitter to truly stay gone. However, when a person stops talking about this hobby or simply ceases to have any emotional response (good or bad) to developments then you know they are really done.

So, no, it is not unreasonable for some to "hate" a miniature company. In fact, I'd say that if there is a company that has no haters at all then they are probably doing something very very wrong as their product wouldn't be producing necessary emotional responses.

1.) Internet nerd rage is something different than real hate in real life.
2.) Emotions are not a matter of reason, ask any non-Vulcan.

IMO, if you hate a game system, you stop playing or you change for another game. Hating a compagny because the whole purpose of a compagny is to make money, is stupide. Is like saying "I hate Iphone. Why? Because is an Iphone".

You have two thing to do

1 : start thinking how the world work.
2 : have a life.

hellpato wrote:
IMO, if you hate a game system, you stop playing or you change for another game. Hating a compagny because the whole purpose of a compagny is to make money, is stupide. Is like saying "I hate Iphone. Why? Because is an Iphone".

You have two thing to do

1 : start thinking how the world work.
2 : have a life.

Apathy is worse then hate.

GW wanting to make money is fine, hell every company wants to make money, its how you go about it and the treatment of your customers. When you start nickel and diming people, grossly inflating your products, starting embargos, alienating customers and releasing poor products while being told they are gold is when you have full reason to start questioning and disliking the business decisions of a company. Do I need to quote Rick Priestley again?