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Hey dakka, everywhere i go I seem to see an intense hatred for Possessed CSM is the only reason for this because they are slightly overpriced at 26pts per model? and yes I understand that nurgle spawn are really good but honestly other than rolling the D3 for two rolls on their D6 attacks I don't think it's that good, the possessed on the other hand are really good, +1A and +1I, AP3, Reroll wounds, those all greatly help the choppa of the possessed and they have fleet to make sure they get into combat. and they have saves that the spawn don't in the form of Power armor and being Daemonic granting a 5++

so let's go through this, spending 260 pts on barebones possessed for 10 of 'em and lets say we lose 1 to overwatch or enemy fire or something and you get the charge against a squad of marines

27 attacks half hitting = 13.5
S5 = 9 wounds
1/3 chance of AP3 = 9 dead marines
1/3 chance of reroll wounds = 12 wounds = 4 dead marines
1/3 chance of +1 A and +1I = 36 attacks = 18 wounds = 6 Dead Marines

compared to the spawn who barebones at 260 pts would be 8.66 spawn so I'll just go their usual loadout and go with MoN spawn going down to 7.0 (7.22) but they are I3 and so suffer because of this but I'm not including that in my summary, just keep that in mind.

worst = 1 attack +2 from charge = 3 attacks each = 21 attacks = 10.5 hits = 7 wounds = 2.33 dead marines
avg (3.5 rounded up) = 4 attacks +2 = 42 = 21 hits = 14 wounds = 4.66 dead marines
best = 6 +2 = 56 = 28 hits = 18.66 wounds = 6.22 dead marines

So i understand that possessed have a bad reputation and that T4 hurts them in comparison to the spawn and that spawn make possibly the best body guard for your warlord but possessed actually do more damage to MEQ on average than spawn. would you, if they were 20 points, no lets say even 22 pts would you take them? And would this only be against MEQ opponents?

I am going to point out something to you... your charging a 10 man tactical squad or something simular that is in the 200pt range. Your getting 16 bolter shots put on your unit from overwatch, 1 bolt pistol, 1-2 special weapon shots, and a heavy weapon shot. On average, your probably looking at more than 1 dead Possessed Marine, special if there is plasma involved. If you win, congratulations, you still haven't broken even for the points spent.

You also have to /survive/ getting close enough to charge them, and this is where they really falter, because they are doing /nothing/ for you for a turn or two but moving forward. Your also rolling at the start of every combat phase. Sure, the choices are better... or you can have Berzerkers that might actually have a AP 2 weapon incase Terminators charge /them/. Or, some other unit that is cheaper and might not be taking up a Elite slot, like 10 CSMs with an Icon of Vengence, extra CCW, and Vets. Then you can do something like get a LC and have AP 3 and Shread all the time. Point is, if the best you can do is T4, 3+ saves, and AP 3 for 260pts, your screwing yourself with a expensive unit that is sucking up an Elite slot that can't fight other Elite slot units. CSM Codex is full of stuff that can fight Tactical marines that are cheaper and more consistant. What I want from my Elite slots is something to build my list around.... Terminators, Noise Marines, 1k Sons, Berserkers, Death Guard. I want my opponent to be afraid that my Elite slot is going to rape his Elite slot and /then/ roll his troops because he has nothing to really stop them.

As for spawn, it is neat, but I have better uses of that Heavy slot then trying to spam as many spawn as possible. Besides, Nid-zilla does the MC spam better anyways, IMO.

I'm not really sure why you are comparing Possessed and Spawn as they fulfill different roles. Really you should be comparing Possessed and Terminators.

Either way, the big difference between Possessed and Spawn is the survivability and how it relates to their damage output. If you suffer two unsaved wounds from Overwatch, that hinders the Possessed while it doesn't phase the Spawn. At the same time, the Marks leads to completely different results in the units.

Nurgle makes Spawn ridiculous, while making Possessed impressive.
Slaanesh makes the Possessed ridiculous, while making Spawn impressive.
Khorne and Tzeentch have virtually no effect on Spawn while making Possessed considerably better.

Then you have to think, of the two best units (Nurgle Spawn versus Slaanesh Possessed) which is "better"? Well, one is cheaper (Spawn) and provides a big target that most likely is ignored and helps with board control (or catches bullets and helps the rest of the army survive), while the other most likely draws a LOT of attention and either destroys everything it touches in combat or dies by being the target of choice (again allowing the rest of the army to survive). Given that, plus the fact that combat isn't quite as important this edition as surviving, I'm inclined to go with the Spawn.

 BlkTom wrote:
As for spawn, it is neat, but I have better uses of that Heavy slot then trying to spam as many spawn as possible. Besides, Nid-zilla does the MC spam better anyways, IMO.

I have no idea what this means. They are Fast Attack not Heavy Support, and they are not MC but Beasts. Unless you are talking about the Forgeworld Spawn which I imagine are considerably more points than the OP was speaking of.

somerandomdude wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
As for spawn, it is neat, but I have better uses of that Heavy slot then trying to spam as many spawn as possible. Besides, Nid-zilla does the MC spam better anyways, IMO.

I have no idea what this means. They are Fast Attack not Heavy Support, and they are not MC but Beasts. Unless you are talking about the Forgeworld Spawn which I imagine are considerably more points than the OP was speaking of.

Moving and have my books packed away. Thought they were Heavy and not Fast Attack, so thank you for the correction. The Nid-Zilla is still the same concept of overmatching the foe with high Toughness units, normally Toughness 6 which is the same range of the Spawn (with MoN). Weather they are beasts or MCs, the concept and tactics are the same.

IMHO, the problem with posessed is not the squad itself, it is the Elite section they are in.

They compete with Hellbrutes, Chosen, terminators, all the cult troops if you do not use a marked lord.

Terminators with DLC are better in my opinion, as are regular chosen wich are a lot more versatile. Load them all with combi flamers (or just flamers), and I think you'll crush the tac squad a lot more, as well as being able to burn down people coming at you - which means you can safely use a rhino for transport.

Still, posessed models are cool. Which helps a lot.

 BlkTom wrote:
I am going to point out something to you... your charging a 10 man tactical squad or something simular that is in the 200pt range. Your getting 16 bolter shots put on your unit from overwatch,

Two words : Dirge Caster
Look it up. Any CSM army worth its salt does not need to worry about overwatch.

 BlkTom wrote:
You also have to /survive/ getting close enough to charge them, and this is where they really falter,

2 more words : Land Raider

Now, in regards to possessed do tend to fall a bit short when compared to other assault units. 26 points a model is a lot for models without a power weapon. Adding on a 230 point transport (the only one CSM have thats an assault transport) makes it a very pricy investment.

That being said, if you want to try it, go for it! Proxy out some models and call them possessed and see how they work for you. It might work great. You will never know until you try it.

Ok, that all makes sense, thanks for responding

Not to get off tangent, but....

One of the big problems the CSM codex has is that its only assault transport is not designed for an assault role.

Unlike the redeemer/crusader, the CSM land raider is designed with a loadout in mind to shoot from afar. Dual TL LCs, and a TL HB are ideal for tearing open tanks at range and doing some damage to infantry when all armor threats are gone.

That is the failure of the CSM assault units that rely upon transports. If your using CSM LRs to transport 30 bezerkers/possessed across the board, your spending 690 points on AV 14 transports that wont shoot any of their weapons. Its a complete waste.

I find the best thing to put in a CSM LR are 10 cultists whose job is to hide until turn 5, then hop out, hide behind the land raider and squat on an objective.

Have to say, from a Blood Angels player perspective, Possessed sound pretty decent.

Comparing them to Death Company, for example, DC are 20 points apiece. They have rage, FNP for 5+, but on the other hand have no access to rending. A DC with a power weapon weighs in at 35 pts or 50 with a jump pack. Makes 26 pts sound not too bad to me.

Or Sanguinary Guard for 40 pts. Sure, they have artificer armour, jump packs and power weapons, but only 2 attacks due to 2-handed weapons, no invulnerable save. So again, 26 pts seems reasonable to me.

 NWansbutter wrote:
Or Sanguinary Guard for 40 pts. Sure, they have artificer armour, jump packs and power weapons, but only 2 attacks due to 2-handed weapons, no invulnerable save. So again, 26 pts seems reasonable to me.

See earlier comments about 'getting there'.

26 points a model are not bad, but you need to get them to the place where they can be effective.

A rhino does not work. Even if you move 18" up on turn one, you disembark on turn two, then you can assault on turn 3. That's possible over half the game they are not able to get into assault, and three turns they are vulnerable to shooting. Simply put -- rhinos don't work for assault. The day of the BA rhino rush are dead. The day of the CSM bezerker rhino rush are dead.

So that leaves you one of two options. The first is to take Huron to inflitrate d3 possessed squads so your only starting 18" from your opponent. The next is to take land raiders as assault platforms.

The first option has potentional to really backfire. In 1/3 of the games, you will only be inflitrating one squad -- which will get shot to bits. If your facing helldrake spam, it will get roasted. If your facing DA banner bolter spam, they will get shot to bits by small arms fire.

The second option is the one that's really secure. An AV 14 platform in today's meta is very solid due to the lack of melta weapons. The drawback, of course, is the extreme price cost and the improper use of CSM LRs (see above post)

That's why fast CSM fast moving assault troops that don't reply upon transports (spawn, bikes) are so good.

Possessed aren't anywhere near as bad as everyone makes them out to be...it's just that any unit that has a random table is pretty much frowned upon and thus overlooked. As others have pointed out, if you can get them where you want them to be in an efficient way, you're going to do some work with them. Try a list with Huron leading the unit, and then infiltrate them as close as you can to where you want them to wreck face. Huron costs less than a land raider, is pretty cool himself, and you may be able to infiltrate another unit (*cough* noise marines *cough*) to a spot that provides a great tactical advantage.

Barrywise wrote:
Hey dakka, everywhere i go I seem to see an intense hatred for Possessed CSM is the only reason for this because they are slightly overpriced at 26pts per model? and yes I understand that nurgle spawn are really good but honestly other than rolling the D3 for two rolls on their D6 attacks I don't think it's that good, the possessed on the other hand are really good, +1A and +1I, AP3, Reroll wounds, those all greatly help the choppa of the possessed and they have fleet to make sure they get into combat. and they have saves that the spawn don't in the form of Power armor and being Daemonic granting a 5++


27 attacks half hitting = 13.5
S5 = 9 wounds
1/3 chance of AP3 = 9 dead marines
1/3 chance of reroll wounds = 12 wounds = 4 dead marines
1/3 chance of +1 A and +1I = 36 attacks = 18 wounds = 6 Dead Marines

compare them to warp talons, assume the same 1 die to overwatch/not in combat.
9 models 27 attacks. 10.125 wound = 10.125 dead marines. Compare to your possessed who average (9+4+6)/3=6.33 dead marines.
Warp Talons >>> Possessed

warp talons and possessed both have a chance at getting AP3(warp talons 100%) they both have a chance of getting shred(warp talons 100%)
both have 2 base attacks
both have a 3+/5++
both suffer from not having grenades(which really makes them suck)
both are too expensive(26 and 30 ppm)
warp talons have a much higher chance of getting in assault though, because they have jump packs. They can also get hammer of wrath, DS or move 13-18" a turn without a transport.

warp talons are better than possessed, yet they are still not good.

I have a bad habit of putting 10 possessed in a landraider with dirge caster with mark of khorne and icon of wrath.

Works really well.

As for the guy talking about them not getting their points back, trust me they do. Between the ability to be ap 3, gain +1 more attack and int plus re-roll to wound, these little guys are crazy and can attack anything in the game with their funny invul save.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
I am going to point out something to you... your charging a 10 man tactical squad or something simular that is in the 200pt range. Your getting 16 bolter shots put on your unit from overwatch,

Two words : Dirge Caster
Look it up. Any CSM army worth its salt does not need to worry about overwatch.

Dirge Casters may only work on Land Raiders... which aren't very good by themselves. The range on the dirge caster makes it only useful if the land raider is pretty much next to the unit you are about to charge which if you are fighting an opponent that knows what he is doing will stay away as much as he can from whatever assault unit that is inside the LR. So you'll need the 6 movement + the 6 disembark + the charge roll to reach your target which is out of the caster range

Dirge Casters on rhinos just get blown up on the first turn, not because they have the dirge casters but because they will give first blood and nobody likes to let marines get on the rapid fire range.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Dirge Casters on rhinos just get blown up on the first turn, not because they have the dirge casters but because they will give first blood and nobody likes to let marines get on the rapid fire range.

You know, I played this list last month. It was plague marine spam.



In about half my games, one would be blown up on first turn - which cost me first blood.
However, never has more than one rhino blown up first turn. Sticking them behind an ADL makes them much more durable. Your statement that 'rhinos just blown up on the first turn' is false.

You are also forgetting that a rhino/land raider can another 6" during the shooting turn by going flat out. If you want to ensure you don't get overwatched, you just move your land raider up another 6" during the shooting phase. That's a total of 18" effective dirge caster range for your assault unit.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Dirge Casters on rhinos just get blown up on the first turn, not because they have the dirge casters but because they will give first blood and nobody likes to let marines get on the rapid fire range.

You know, I played this list last month. It was plague marine spam.



In about half my games, one would be blown up on first turn - which cost me first blood.
However, never has more than one rhino blown up first turn. Sticking them behind an ADL makes them much more durable. Your statement that 'rhinos just blown up on the first turn' is false.

You are also forgetting that a rhino/land raider can another 6" during the shooting turn by going flat out. If you want to ensure you don't get overwatched, you just move your land raider up another 6" during the shooting phase. That's a total of 18" effective dirge caster range for your assault unit.

BRB pg 79 tends to differ with that 18" effective range, unless you disembark the models before moving the LR, which would take 6" out of their assault range. After disembarking a vehicle can not move for the rest of the turn, maybe the flatout doesn't count as movement... i dunno they way i read if you move 6" and disembark that's it can't move till next turn, never thought of flatout as an exception but it COULD be, again not sure.

And well yeah if you keep your rhinos on the back sure they won't get shot but then they aren't doing their job getting you into rapid fire range, and lastly even if some rhinos make it you probably have non-assault units inside because well they are rhinos, so the overwatch wouldn't matter.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
And well yeah if you keep your rhinos on the back sure they won't get shot but then they aren't doing their job getting you into rapid fire range, and lastly even if some rhinos make it you probably have non-assault units inside because well they are rhinos, so the overwatch wouldn't matter.

Believe it or not, there are often times I want to assault with my PMs, which is when the dirge casters are invalueable.

I was playing a C:SM player and he dropped some sternguard next to my PMs. I was already out of my rhino shooting at some other targets. When he shot the poisoned rounds at me, I did not want to get engaged in a shooting match, so I assaulted him on the following turn. Since the dirge caster is a cheap upgrade, I usually throw it on 3 rhinos. All I had to do was move one empty rhino over 18" to do the job.

Normally what happens when I play is I move all my rhinos 12"-18" on turn one to park on the objectives I want to control. On turn two, the PMs pour out and use their inherent durability. I keep the rhinos behind them in case I need to hop in and take off to another objective.

In any case where I need to assault, I can just move the rhino with a dirge caster to where it needs to be. The beauty of them is they are cheap at 5 points per model.

Isnt the Land raider an assault vehicle? i thought that meant you can assault right out of it? correct me if im wrong please as i dont use it at all, i just have a friend who swears by it.

Personally i think its a point dump.

The land raider is an assault vehicle, so yes you can deploy 6 inches from it's access point and still charge after the vehicle has moved 6 inches. Add in cheap dirge casters and extra armor, and that thing stays around for a long time.

Few people still take melta guns, besides guard.

Rhinos can't do this, simply because even if you are in the rhino and it explodes during your opponents turn, you cannot assault with the unit that was inside of that rhino next turn. Rhinos are simply for shooting units, trying to use them for melee is suicide.

A landraider has a huge threat range. Let's start it deployed pointing left or right.

On first turn, you pivot, gaining 2 inches. Then you move 12. Then you flat out 6. That's 20 inches.

Next turn, you move it 6, deploy from it 6 and all the sudden the contents have moved 32 inches in two turns and can still assault. Combo this with the icon of wrath for re-roll charge range and people cry foul.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Hmmm landraiders are sounding more promising!

I feel either way, CC is a under rated focus for an army that is still very beast mode and catches the meta in most places off. Now a days everyone just wants to shoot shoot shoot, everyone is scared to get down and dirty in the trenches, but its there that games are won.

If only chaos had drop pods, but they just HAD to build robot dinosaurs instead...hmm a fact know to very few loyalists, drop pods are actually hollowed out robot Dino feces with a rocket attached, explaining why chaos doesn't use drop pods

I'm honestly very sad of point and FoC limitations because I'm so tempted to bring 2 of every counter for each situation and infiltrate them, for example Nids or DE cover saves = flamer chosen or noise marines, horde: noise marines, Tau: Massive Blob of CSM. Power Armor: T-Sons so many choices GAHHHH

If it came down to the point of buying a Land Raider to make Possessed worth it, I would do Terminators instead due to the better survivability.

I have a squad of them painted by a friend who is really gifted with talent:



But they were so bad in 5th that I did not ever bring them. I hoped for 6th, but now I have to hope for 7th edition to field them sometime.

I converted mine to havocs... Fluffwise they are half way through to becoming obliterators

For the price of a land raider, why not just add 9a more possessed?

Remember with fleet you'll have above average run and charge results so you may not need a transport.

Compared to warp talons, remember that they aren't fearless and occupy a more crowded FOC.

 Che-Vito wrote:

juraigamer wrote:
On first turn, you pivot, gaining 2 inches. Then you move 12. Then you flat out 6. That's 20 inches.

Next turn, you move it 6, deploy from it 6 and all the sudden the contents have moved 32 inches in two turns and can still assault. Combo this with the icon of wrath for re-roll charge range and people cry foul.

I've always had more respect for opponents than pulling moves like this. Is it legal? Yes. Is it shamelessly exploiting a loophole? Yes.

When someone does something like this they're pretty much in my black book. I'm quite happy with never playing them again.

Unless they play Dark Eldar, then it's expected

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

juraigamer wrote:
On first turn, you pivot, gaining 2 inches. Then you move 12. Then you flat out 6. That's 20 inches.

Next turn, you move it 6, deploy from it 6 and all the sudden the contents have moved 32 inches in two turns and can still assault. Combo this with the icon of wrath for re-roll charge range and people cry foul.

I've always had more respect for opponents than pulling moves like this. Is it legal? Yes. Is it shamelessly exploiting a loophole? Yes.

When someone does something like this they're pretty much in my black book. I'm quite happy with never playing them again.

Pivoting doesn't count as movement. Unless you want me to count every bit of pivoting you make all game long with your vehicles, don't be butthurt over how the rules work.

It hurts really bad if the land raider gets immobilized during it's first turn too. Nothing like only having 1 gun being able to see for the rest of the game.

 juraigamer wrote:
Pivoting doesn't count as movement. Unless you want me to count every bit of pivoting you make all game long with your vehicles, don't be butthurt over how the rules work.

Its easy. Measure the same part of the land raider from the start to the end of your move.

Pivoting before you move to earn extra movement will only earn you a poor sportmanship score. Its not quite as bad as the guy who built his own bastion to templecon and stuck all 4 heavy bolters on one side -- but it will still ding your sportsmanship score.

If you don't care about sportsmanship, go right ahead