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 Kanluwen wrote:

 RatBot wrote:
On the topic of GW not having sales, I seem to recall reading somewhere (this is a third-hand account, possibly even more removed, so you can, and probably should, take this with a grain of salt) that GW's attitude is that they are essentially the crème de la crème of miniature wargaming and thus having sales would devalue their brand. I believe the quote was "You don't see Porsche having sales, do you?"

Which is flying rodent gak nuts, IMO.

Looking at GW's history, though, it seems perfectly plausible.

There's also the third-hand account which brought up the point that if GW were to have sales, it could be seen as undercutting the independents.

That's the big one right there. That's why you rarely, if ever, see a manufacturer sell their own product to the public at less than MSRP, because then why would you ever buy it from stores? It's one thing to have limited time offer bundle deals (especially if those same deals are supplied to retailers), but something else entirely to just have a sale.
GW has, for years, considered themselves the best of the best, and that are a model company first, who supply to a collector's marker that just happens to play games with those models.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

they seem to, I guess think, they are like that all the time... I am not sure why they don't have sales, perhaps they feel they are above them and that they can somehow get people that can sell in those volumes

The problem with sales in GW is that people will simply shift spending - instead of spending £80 over the next two months, you'll spend it in a single day at a sale, on products GW were selling at a lower margin.

I'd love to see a return of the armoured company and the carnifex brood and most especially the Green Tide.

These were fazed out just as I returned to the hobby and I missed out on the opportunity to get them, a great shame.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

they seem to, I guess think, they are like that all the time... I am not sure why they don't have sales, perhaps they feel they are above them and that they can somehow get people that can sell in those volumes

The problem with sales in GW is that people will simply shift spending - instead of spending £80 over the next two months, you'll spend it in a single day at a sale, on products GW were selling at a lower margin.

yeah, though knowing GW if they did have sales, they'd never tell anyone until the day of, no one would buy anything above and beyond, and they'd consider it a failure and never do it again lol

Not sure if it counts but I like the little £6 boxes with 4 or 5 models in them, I think it's pretty decent if you just want to try an army out, sadly I think the only ones are 4 Orks and 5 Guardsmen but I like them, might pick up the box of 5 Guardsmen on Wednesday since I only have tiny little skirmishes anyway...... Heck, if you're really creative you could replicate a CoD style game type with them!

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

they seem to, I guess think, they are like that all the time... I am not sure why they don't have sales, perhaps they feel they are above them and that they can somehow get people that can sell in those volumes

The problem with sales in GW is that people will simply shift spending - instead of spending £80 over the next two months, you'll spend it in a single day at a sale, on products GW were selling at a lower margin.

yeah, though knowing GW if they did have sales, they'd never tell anyone until the day of, no one would buy anything above and beyond, and they'd consider it a failure and never do it again lol

Yeah, Games Workshop should promote sales before hand so that people refrain from buying normally priced products and buy them at a discount instead. Just because a shop is rammed for one day, doesn't mean GW are making more money if it means that they're concentrating their spending on a single day at a lower margin for GW.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

they seem to, I guess think, they are like that all the time... I am not sure why they don't have sales, perhaps they feel they are above them and that they can somehow get people that can sell in those volumes

The problem with sales in GW is that people will simply shift spending - instead of spending £80 over the next two months, you'll spend it in a single day at a sale, on products GW were selling at a lower margin.

It's all up for debate as we don't know for sure what the ratios would be, but I can safely say that back when GW used to have sales here in Oz, I spent more money than I would have otherwise spent. I personally think that'd still apply even to GW stuff. Especially if they did it intelligently to move the stock they want to move and get people to buy stuff they may have only mildly wanted rather than simply buying what they need.

The first GW sale I went to many years ago, certain items were discounted more than others, which I didn't know before I got to the store, so in the end I bought all the stuff I was planning on buying as well as a bunch of other stuff simply because it was discounted more heavily, and it wasn't discounted THAT much anyway, they still would have been making a killing on it. I'm sure there were a ton of people who bought things they were never going to have bought and spent money they were never planning on spending.

Most big sales like that are promoted beforehand.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

they seem to, I guess think, they are like that all the time... I am not sure why they don't have sales, perhaps they feel they are above them and that they can somehow get people that can sell in those volumes

The problem with sales in GW is that people will simply shift spending - instead of spending £80 over the next two months, you'll spend it in a single day at a sale, on products GW were selling at a lower margin.

yeah, though knowing GW if they did have sales, they'd never tell anyone until the day of, no one would buy anything above and beyond, and they'd consider it a failure and never do it again lol

Yeah, Games Workshop should promote sales before hand so that people refrain from buying normally priced products and buy them at a discount instead. Just because a shop is rammed for one day, doesn't mean GW are making more money if it means that they're concentrating their spending on a single day at a lower margin for GW.

so having normal sales works for other businesses, promotions and all but can't for GW?

I think the Deathwing Command Squad box for Dark Angels is probably the best individual kit for its value. There are some many extra bits and pieces, if you buy some Terminator legs and backs you can may 2 of the 3 squads. That costs less than buying to seperate packs of Terminators.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
so having normal sales works for other businesses, promotions and all but can't for GW?

You could argue that the nature of GW products, customers spend the same amount of money regardless of whether there's a sale or not, and so selling at a higher margin would be more profitable. However, I personally think people would actually buy more (both $$ wise and amount wise) if GW held sales from time to time, and it would also give them greater control over what they sell, and also I think since the margins are already so high that it wouldn't hurt them to sell more at a lower price than less at a higher price (if a TV costs a retailer $400 and they sell for $700, if they sold it for 30% off the price drops to $490, but the margin drops from $300 to $90, a 70% decrease in their income off the TV, but if they themselves can get the TV for $200, still sell for RRP $700, then discount 30%, their margin goes from $500 to $290, a decrease of only 58%, so GW with their massive margins can greater benefit from sales than, say, a PC parts store, where the margins are usually much much smaller).

I've got to say, sales are not a good idea for GW. However...

There are things that are sales-ish, which could be.

Games Workshop 'clubcard' points. Ala Tesco, or Game.

Promotions. Don't knock 33% off the price of predators for a limited time. Instead have rotating offers - one month, sell 3 for 2. - Like the aforementioned Apocalypse sets. People are not going to go out and buy multiple predators normally. But if they go and say 'ooh, I could get 3 predators if I just buy a second one...." They end up making more money. Again, like supermarkets.

A concept that GW used to run in the 90's was:

An 'army collectors' card like what they did when I started back in 97.

Commanders: General, Wizard, Special Character, Hero.
- Once you buy all 4 of them, you get a free metal Knight Champion on Horseback.
Troops: 20 Archers, 16 Knights. Archer Command Group.
- Once you get all of them, you get a free metal Knight Standard Bearer.
Others: 12 assorted Knights Errant/Grail
- Once you get all of them, you get a free metal Knight Musician

Then, once you get all 3, you got a ribbon and an exclusive badge.

It appealed to the 12 year old me at least. Plus, the models from the starter set counted.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

so having normal sales works for other businesses, promotions and all but can't for GW?

Shh, that sounds too much like logic.

Edit: Actually, to be clearer, that sarcasm is making a point that sounds to much like logic.

I remember those collector cards, certainly got kids to buy and paint, it appealed to the 12 year old me as well

 Compel wrote:
I've got to say, sales are not a good idea for GW. However...

We must have different definitions of what a "sale" is...

 Compel wrote:
I've got to say, sales are not a good idea for GW. However...

There are things that are sales-ish, which could be.

Games Workshop 'clubcard' points. Ala Tesco, or Game.

Promotions. Don't knock 33% off the price of predators for a limited time. Instead have rotating offers - one month, sell 3 for 2. - Like the aforementioned Apocalypse sets. People are not going to go out and buy multiple predators normally. But if they go and say 'ooh, I could get 3 predators if I just buy a second one...." They end up making more money. Again, like supermarkets.

A concept that GW used to run in the 90's was:

An 'army collectors' card like what they did when I started back in 97.

Commanders: General, Wizard, Special Character, Hero.
- Once you buy all 4 of them, you get a free metal Knight Champion on Horseback.
Troops: 20 Archers, 16 Knights. Archer Command Group.
- Once you get all of them, you get a free metal Knight Standard Bearer.
Others: 12 assorted Knights Errant/Grail
- Once you get all of them, you get a free metal Knight Musician

Then, once you get all 3, you got a ribbon and an exclusive badge.

It appealed to the 12 year old me at least. Plus, the models from the starter set counted.

That's actually exactly what I mean by "sales". That's what GW sales used to be back when I started. You'd buy 2 and get a third one free, occasionally it was buy 1 get 1 free (though that was pretty rare) and sometimes it was buy 2 get the 3rd one half price.

So if you want a discount you still have to spend a decent amount of money, but it was enough to get lots of people in the door and handing over lots of cash.

The very first sale I went to, they put coloured stickers on everything, one colour meant buy 2 get one free, another colour was buy 3 get 1 free, another colour was buy 1 get 1 free, etc etc. Things that are popular you don't discount massively, but things with a high margin and low turn over you can discount further to encourage people to buy more of them.

Sales work in every other area of retail if they're done well. The trick is giving people a sense that the models are worth a lot, then bait them with a carrot of it being temporarily cheaper than that, GW does the former really well but then it's left up to online discounters and ebay to do the latter and GW sees even less cash for it.

I remember when they released troop transports with the actual troops. Now THOSE were a steal because they were only 37 bucks but normally you would've had to pay 50 for the transport and the troops, maybe 60 if you were doing a SM army. Of course, now you have to pay more because the transports cost 37 dollars. They were really selling and I can't remember if they were either a one-time thing or GW just said "WE NEED TO BLEED THEM DRY! SELL THEM.. SEPARATELY! CASH FLOOD!"

All in all I think GW won't release good discount bundles anymore, because if they do it'll be the models nobody buys because they're either ugly or useless in-game. If they do release good bundles, they'll be gone fast.

I actually like the prices for some products. The ork boys kit is really good price wise. I can buy the lootas/burnas kit and get more out of it. Stormboyz kit is really good because i take bits to make komandos too. I also like the BA death company and sanguinary guard kits. I get more for my whole army for kitbashing. And on top of that Assault on Black reach and dark vengeance are Really good values IMO. I mean heck the models aren't the greatest for some things but you're getting what's in my opinion better than two battleforces. Yeah some things suck in the price department(shokk attack gun, kommandos), but you shop and find out what you can make, and what you can't.

For GW plc to offer value for money, they have to consider themselves as part of the wider table top game hobby.And price their products accordingly.

But as they are locked into spending £60 M + every year on isolation of their ever diminishing customer base*.(*In terms of sales volumes.)With very expencive B&M stores.

They can not accept they are part of the wider hobby and their isolationist policy towards customers is failing.

Other wise it would not still be 1998 in GW towers...and Mr Kirby would be using out dated and detrimental buisness practices, and no one dare say that ...

I have at least 2-3 different hobby stores near by (not including GW), and so far the best prices ive found actually have been at the GW.

For the sale, amazon.com every now and then cut the prices on the GW sets to ok deal prices, (as the writing of this post). I might actually buy from amazon. Regularly they just follow GW prices, but the time to get them is when cut the price temporarily. If only GW had holiday sales...man i love steam...

48 miniatures for $100.

For a starter set? Not that impressive, really.



95 miniatures, $75.



55 miniatures and two vehicles. In resin.

GW used to do a lot better on value for money on their starter sets than the do now.

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RatBot wrote:
On the topic of GW not having sales, I seem to recall reading somewhere (this is a third-hand account, possibly even more removed, so you can, and probably should, take this with a grain of salt) that GW's attitude is that they are essentially the crème de la crème of miniature wargaming and thus having sales would devalue their brand. I believe the quote was "You don't see Porsche having sales, do you?"

Which is flying rodent gak nuts, IMO.

Looking at GW's history, though, it seems perfectly plausible.

There's also the third-hand account which brought up the point that if GW were to have sales, it could be seen as undercutting the independents.

More than not allowing them to show pictures in advertisements?
Or not allowing sales by mail order to Australia?
Or moving corporate stores into neighborhoods with successful independent stores?

Uhm, yeah. Right.

The Auld Grump

Have you seen the DV models? What kind of models are we talking about in those kits, and do they in any way compare with the quality of the minis in the DV kits?

Also, the DV kit comes with a pocket rulebook, which is useful even when you have a fullsize copy, plus some other dumb gizmos like templates and so forth. It's certainly not a bad deal, and there is absolutely no reason to complain about it when the models look the way they do. Not to mention, each model is a new sculpt, which was -not- the case with Dark Vengeance.

 TedNugent wrote:
Have you seen the DV models? What kind of models are we talking about in those kits, and do they in any way compare with the quality of the minis in the DV kits?

Also, the DV kit comes with a pocket rulebook, which is useful even when you have a fullsize copy, plus some other dumb gizmos like templates and so forth. It's certainly not a bad deal, and there is absolutely no reason to complain about it when the models look the way they do. Not to mention, each model is a new sculpt, which was -not- the case with Dark Vengeance.

Have I seen Dark Vengeance?
Yes.

Did I buy Dark Vengeance?
No.

Have I seen Kings of War?
Yes.

Did I buy Kings of War?
Yes. Two sets.

Have I seen Warpath?
Yes.

Did I buy Warpath?
Yes. Two sets.

I think that you can draw conclusions as to which I felt was 'Value for money' and which I did not.

Had GW charged $75 for Dark Vengeance than I would have grabbed it. Instead, I am letting it pass me by. And my WH40K army is Dark Angels. (5th Company - Badger Wing Engineering and Vehicle Recovery). So letting it pass me by makes me grumpier than usual.

That aside - I like the rules for Kings of War better than I do the current incarnation of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. I like the Warpath 2.0 rules better than the current WH40K rules (but less than WH40K 3rd ed.). Both games come with the rules, as does Dark Vengeance. Mantic's full rules are about the same size as the pocket WH40K rules. Mantic also has those same rules up as free downloads.

Miniature wise - I really like both the Mantic dwarfs and the Mantic Undead. I actually think that the Mantic Undead look better than the GW undead. *EDIT* The Mantic skellies actually look like they could fit inside of somebody's body.

I am okay with the Mantic Forge Fathers and Marauders - and really like both of the vehicles. Plus, I had missed the Squats, so the Forge Fathers make me smile.

The Dark Vengeance miniatures look fine - but not fine enough for me to shell out $100 - which is at the core of the whole 'Value for money' question. For me, it was not.

The Auld Grump

I'm looking at the immaculately rendered and carefully sculpted overlapping keys hanging off the belt on my DV Librarian and the overlapping layers of spikes in the helmet armor of my Helbrute and shaking my head. Most people can't even paint up to the standard of these models - I know I can't.

What is even more astonishing is your army is Dark Angels. So does that mean you buy $37 10 man Tactical Squad kits and $60 Terminator Command Squad kits in between complaining that DV is overpriced? Did you buy the $110 DA Battleforce with an Attack bike, a few bikers, and Landspeeder before you complained about the $100 DV kit?

At least go online to some bitz stores and buy the parts that you need. Some bikers or something.

 TedNugent wrote:
I'm looking at the immaculately rendered and carefully sculpted overlapping keys hanging off the belt on my DV Librarian and the overlapping layers of spikes in the helmet armor of my Helbrute and shaking my head. Most people can't even paint up to the standard of these models - I know I can't.

What is even more astonishing is your army is Dark Angels. So does that mean you buy $37 10 man Tactical Squad kits and $60 Terminator Command Squad kits in between complaining that DV is overpriced? Did you buy the $110 DA Battleforce with an Attack bike, a few bikers, and Landspeeder before you complained about the $100 DV kit?

At least go online to some bitz stores and buy the parts that you need. Some bikers or something.

No - it means that my Dark Angels army dates back to 3rd ed - when I actually liked the rules. I did buy 4th ed. but did not like the rules.

I have not bought 40K since.

They are not 'Value for Money', you see. So I do not buy them. So, it still stands as not 'Value for money'. If I do not think the overpriced starter set is worth the money then why would I think that the vastly overpriced kits are?

So, GW does not get my money and Mantic does. Do you understand now?

The Auld Grump

That would make sense that if you can't afford the DV kit the rest of it is on the moon.

Able to afford - yes.

Willing to buy something that I consider over priced? No.

I bought two of the Kings of War starter sets when it was new, ditto for Warpath - two sets of Warpath is half again the price of a single Dark Vengeance set.

I forked out $300 for the Kings of War Kickstarter - I felt that it was Value For Money. Models that were less expensive than GW at half price, for a game that I actually like.

I left DV on the shelf - I did not feel that it was Value For Money.

I spent $300 on the Bones Kickstarter... ... ... Okay, that one goes way beyond Value For Money and into Freakin' Awesome For Money!

If GW had a Kickstarter for Mordheim, with a decent return on the pledges... I would die of a heart attack, but I would die a happy man.

Do not get me wrong - I like a lot of GW's models. I just do not think that they are Value For Money. The last GW sets that I bought were Empire Handgunners and Empire Archers. Both for role playing games.

Before that the last GW that I bought was some plastic buildings that *gasp!* I actually thought were reasonably priced. I suspect that they have increased in price since then. And I bought them at discount through the War Store.

Ironically, I use the terrain for Kings of War.

The Auld Grump

Being able to afford something has NOTHING to do with your perception of value for money!

Can I afford to buy £100 of minatures and war gaming stuff every month. YES.(£1200 is still enough to buy a GW army .)

Will I buy any thing from GW ? NO.

Why , because I personaly do not see it as value for money!

I get more minatures and /or far more game play from other companies for a similar amount of money.

GW plc is not value for money compared to other companies products.
Because the 'GW hobby' on which GW plc base their pricing, has nothing to do with the table top games hobby which competes in the 'open market.'

 ace101 wrote:
If only GW had holiday sales...man i love steam...

By the Emperor, if GW had sales like Steam, we wouldn't have wallets.

 Deunstephe wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
If only GW had holiday sales...man i love steam...

By the Emperor, if GW had sales like Steam, we wouldn't have wallets.

That... is a reasonable claim.

The Auld Grump