Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The cronos can at most generate 3 tokens a turn. One for the flamer, one for the blast, and one if you take the combat upgrade too.

And one if I destroy the whole squad. Still don't know how it is easy to pick off the banner guy though.

Touche... though he has to keep that one himself.

What is interesting is that beastmaster packs could fare well against the harliestar and the harliestar can take on paladinstar but the beastmaster pack struggles. Now I confused myself.

Hey Sean,

This is your first opponent Ryan from Templecon. Glad to see you are having such great success with my favorite toy from the Dark Eldar codex.

I have to say that having played a very similar list to yours basically since NOVA and having generally good success that I have to recommend that you add a couple of Talos if you can find the points. I always have two in my list with Splinter Cannons and Liquifiers and they are such a great unit to fall back on for those games where the beasts get thinned out really early. They come in at 105 I believe and having that extra splinter fire is no joke. Cronos on the other hand have always dissapointed me. I ran one at NOVA and I played in both the GT and the team tournament and it totaled 2 kills during the tournament. The blast is too short range and he isn't fast enough, additionally not having a twin linked flamer hurts and the pain tokens are only really good on the wyches and even there they aren't super necessary.

I hope that we get a rematch at some point when I am playing something proper and not IG.... I won't ever make that mistake again. Maybe I'll see you at Battlegrounds soon!

Hey ryan,

I agree with you there is no comparison between talos and cronos. Talos are nasty... cronos kinda lame. I also like the liquifier gun set up, though confess to never having run the straight splinter cannon ones. Ive tried heat lances and haywire. When running three talos I liked the haywire for anti landraider.

I may have to give the splinter cannon set up some table time before making final decisions before adepticon. I love the models and its sad to see them sitting in the glass case. My only worry has been how easy it is to get them killed from time to time.

Last time I was running them with a grotesque star at BFS. And while they did threaten parts of the table I found it hard to get them really where I wanted. But perhaps with a splinter cannon set up I can use them more in a support roll instead of a tank hunting role. I really do wish they had at least one more wound, or could start with a pain token... I mean wracks and grotesques do why cant talos. The other place I kept running into trouble was in combat with other monstrous creatures and with demons specifically flamers... in both fights they would be found lacking.

That's the secret sauce. See not only does the splinter cannon make them support but who should finish off thhat 1 man strong unit you just devastated with splinter fire.....

Once you learn to pick off the stragglers with the splinter fire from the talos to get that lovely token you will learn why I never leave home without them. They also synergize with the beasts hit and run, I'm sure you are used to crippling squads with the beasts and having only a couple leftovers to mop up. They are perfect for this.

Of course they have bad match ups but they are 105 points and the best looking model in the army. If you don't like them the next beer is on me.

I posted a list similar* to this back in September, taking advantage of Vect and the Baron (and more importantly just abusing the change to how USRs work now), and I was laughed at.

Glad to see other people have looked outside the box regarding USRs and are seeing success.

Mine didn't care about Invisibility and instead included Baharroth to give a SECOND Beast pack Fearless/Hit&Run. It was part of an experiment to see what the most abusive list was that I could come up with for each Pheonix Lord as an ally. Good times, good times.

*By similar, I mean it had the same important combo on its big unit, not that everything was the same. I had planes and vehicles in that list (but dropped them by the time I started playing it more) and no Aegis, for instance.

 felixcat wrote:

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

What I meant to say is that the Chronos did not do anything that the AGL and reavers does not do. It's a bit costly for the what it does at 1850. We are thinking of switching out to reaver jetbikes. We will be playng on thursday to finalize our lists and testing this ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 Splinter Cannons, Sybarite - 210 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
HS: 1 Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Vortex - 100 [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - TL Haywire Blasters, Chainflails - 115 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

We ran into some small issues last game with rhinos and razors trying to block the beastmaster advance. Also I don't wat to get tied up with a large sacrificial screen in front of my prime targets for the pack. So Cronos/Talos make a bit of sense here. e will see ... we are up against GK/IG ... this a list that can bring the hurt. We are not using the Talos/Cronos for taking out vehicles in the enemy deployment zone. But they are really effective against armies that will be approaching you with transports trying to block the beasts. These armies usually want to close the gap as soon as they can. So the Talos/Cronos will be in range by turn 2, usually. Pop the transport, then you have a big threat standing in front of a vulnerable squad. This means the Talos is useful even without a WWP. It's ability to draw fire is also invaluable.What do you target ... MCs or beasts.

iam looking at a similar 1750 list:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, 180 [DE]
Troop: 14 Wyches - Haywire, 168 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 dark lance, 230 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

I replaced the splinter cannon with a little more anti-tank/flyer blasters/lances. I believe you can also trow a heywire grenade against flyers, right? If you got those helldrakes coming out of reserves its possible to shot them first with quad gun and next turn you can shoot with 4 blasters, 2 dark lances and trow 5 heywire grenades. With sum prescience you will roll 6's at sum point.

will this work?

shogun wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

iam looking at a similar 1750 list:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, 180 [DE]
Troop: 14 Wyches - Haywire, 168 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 dark lance, 230 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

I replaced the splinter cannon with a little more anti-tank/flyer blasters/lances. I believe you can also trow a heywire grenade against flyers, right? If you got those helldrakes coming out of reserves its possible to shot them first with quad gun and next turn you can shoot with 4 blasters, 2 dark lances and trow 5 heywire grenades. With sum prescience you will roll 6's at sum point.

will this work?

not terribly well. the splinter cannons are really really useful. They allow you to move and shoot, they allow you to decimate Teq, they allow you to splatter infantry.

3 man trueborn with blasters have to get awfully close to use their blasters, also 3 haywire grenades dont scare people. A few bolters will wipe the squad.
20 warriors with 2 dark lances waste 18(36) splinter shots any time they shoot at a vehicle. They waste 2 dark lances any time they shoot at infantry. Really a terrible option.

The only place I'm considering putting a blaster is on my warriors in case I run into an MC, Dread, LR. Generally Haywires should be enough but tonight at 1850 we will use one blaster as it fits in our list to make up the last 5 points ( instead of one SC). Our list being tested has ended up being a hybrid of Ryan's and Sean's. We will be fielding two
Talos ( last night we had another look at the Cronos and dropped it) even though the Cronos is not bad against IG blobs. We don't want to tailor the list - we would rather test it as a final product to field against any other force. We now know what we are up against

HQ
Primaris Psyker [IG]
Inquisitor - 3 x Servo Skulls [GK]

Troops
Platoon Command - 3 x Flamer, Chimera [IG]
2x Infantry Squad [IG]
3x Mortar Squad [IG]
Veteran Squad - 3 x Melta [IG]
2x 10 GKSS - 2 Psycannons [GK]

Fast Attack
Vendetta [IG]

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Squadron: Leman Russ Battle Tank, Leman Russ Executioner [IG]
Manticore [IG]
Dreadnought - Dual Twin Autocannon, Psybolts

Fortifications
Agies Defence Line

Well this is nasty for our list - any advice? Game is at 8:00

Here is my battle report rematch against Eldar/Dark Eldar. I am currently working on it and it will be done a little later today:


1750 Rematch - Hive Fleet Pandora vs SonsofGrant's Double-Trouble Dual-Deathstar Deer Council Deldar


BTW, this is what he ran (will probably be the list that he will use for the Bay Area Open in March):


Farseer - Jetbike, Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding/Witnessing
Eldrad
Baron

10x Seer Council - Jetbikes, 5-6x Destructors, Enhance, Embolden

3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes
10x Kabalite Warriors - 1x Splinter Cannon
10x Kabalite Warriors - 1x Splinter Cannon

Beastmasters - 5x Beastmasters, 10x Khymerae, 6x Razorwings

Aegis Defense Line

Great report jy2!

I ran into someone running biovores and flyrants recently at an event and the biovores killed most of my 20 man warrior brick in one turns shooting. I had bunched them up fully expecting that death to happen but the reward was too great, he had placed one of his flyrants about 28" away in deployment from my lines so I used eldrads redeployent to get all 20 warriors and my true born units into shooting range on him, then bunched up to get all the splinter rifles in 24" range to kill him turn 1. So while it was a conscious trade on my part it definitely showed what the biovores can do.

Your report also illustrates why I think fearless is so important to the death star. Im a terrible die roller, if i need to pass a ld check i will fail. I take plenty of things that let me reroll dice(vulkan, prescience, preferred enemy) I need it all. The council has embolden to keep it semi safe from shooting morale, but I worry about him getting stuck into a combat with both his beasts and council and losing and getting his whole army swept off. Keeping baron with the council can help if he can get some quick kills to get 3 pain tokens, but if not he better keep some space between the units.

Tyarnids are scary to beast stars. Multiple enfeebles can get you killed pretty quickly.

Well my plan tonite isto take it to my opponent and not lose. Lol.

Mine is possibility one of the worst match ups for my deathstar list - a balanced IG/GK list has the tools to hide behind the Aegis and slowly rip me up. Eldrad's reposition helps... first turn is a near must and I have to grab invisibility for sure. I'm hoping splinter fire will really chew the platoon up and my beastpack gets to his GKss early before getting shot to bits. Just a few large blasts can do in my wyches and warriors ... I'll try and bait him to fire his manticore and russ at one squad. But yes, it illustrates the difficulties of playing a deathstar if your opponent happens to have every tool that hurts it ( well he could have a stormraven and not a psyledread but he would have had to drop the AGL.) So both of us attempting to hide anything important behind the AGL but I can reposition and with luck maybe get first blood and certainly can go after his warlord - primaris psyker. We both diosclosed lists prior so we did not tailor - just using the lists we have.

So I ended playing this list ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect [DE]
HQ: Eldrad [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons [DE]
Troop: 14 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade [DE]
Troop: 10 Warriors - 1 Splinter Cannon [DE]
Troop: 10 Warriors - 1 Splinter Cannon [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - Splinter Cannon, TL Liquifier [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - Splinter Cannon, TL Liquifier [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun

TOTAL POINTS: 1750

Now there are a few problems with the list although Sean and Ryan seem to overcome better than I did in this match up. First - twe have fragile troops. I could have joined the warriors into one squad but decided not to - they are not that hard to dakka down so at least have two targets. It also requires that I start at least one warrior squad in reserve to protect it. My plan was to try and bait ny opponent to shoot the other squad in an attempt for first blood with his medusa. I figured to spread out and see the result. But he did not bite. Not surprising even after I left hints, lol. The big problem was his tanks were all behind the Aegis ... that meant I needed to somehow get my wyches to skirt the edge of his troops and get behind his aegis unmolested by using my Taloi as bait or I needed to jump my beast pack from assault to assault to get to the tanks. I had the firepower to shred his bubblewrap but I had to be careful not lose both Taloi to vendetta fire as well. Mt beastpack made it into assault turn two with the remains of his IG blob as planned but the GKSS wwere now approachng range to hit my truborn and warriors. My AGL actually damaged his vendetta - it cam in tun three ( a break) allowing me to get the Taloi into cc as well. The GkSS decided to wipe out my Wyches - he realized their threat so the tanks would have to be dealt with by Taloi and beastpack. There was a massive battle with the GKSS - multi-asault with baeastpack and Taloi that the GKSS really had no chance to win with runes up. But honestly, I could not take out the damn tanks - I only managed to kill one leman russ - the nasty Executioner which was a big thorn. The manticore took out a guardian jetbike squad, and a warrior squad, the mortars kept back and managed to take out a truborn squad and damage but not destroy the other warrior squad. Once I multi-assaulted two mortars were gone. By turn four/five I had only one option ... keep my last jetbike squad safe nad not give up a VP, slay his primaris. The last Talos engaged his Psyfledread which had done little all game. Sucks to have anti vehicle and no real targets as most my troops had cover or were in assault. So the result - did not get to his primaris ... did not get first blood, lost my last jetbike squad on the last turn ... narrow loss.

So now we have to decide whether to play this or play a list with a bit more mobility ... venom/wyches and razorwings/ravagers. We will play our other list net week and decide and maybe see some dakka boys at a tournament near you.

what powers did you have? Also is there anyway... with paint or power point or pictures you could show how the forces were deployed and your opening turns?

I took invisibility and psychic shriek. It helped a bit ....

I do not have oictures but we both had AGL aqnd turn one everything set up be4hind them on both sides facing each other. He had nothing in reserve - I reserved bikes and a warrior squad.I used Eldrad to position what I had to shoot at th3e blob of IG which bubblewrapped the tanks and some of the GKSS. I had first turn so moved my beastpack and warrior squad with Big E forward - just close enough to cast invisibilit6y and hugging terrain.

If you had invisibility then you shouldnt have had much of a problem with that list.

Psychic shriek on the other hand is kinda bad. What were your other two powers? Basically my strategy with powers is to use my first 3 rolls on the telepathy table to try and get invisibility and then use the last roll on the divination tree. The most generally useful powers are obviously invisibility, but also mental fortitude, and terrify also from telepathy, and forewarning and misfortune from divination, along with prescience of course.

Obviously hard to tell without visible representation. But in essence your shooting elements should have been able to poke a few holes in the bubble wrap. Then the beasts could have charged through those holes on the tanks or strike squads behind. With invisibility and prescience 3 birds or so per tank should have gotten the job done. Just get one model into base with the strikes if you can or at least some models into the bubble wrap. From the list you posted for him it didnt even seem like the the blob had a commissar? So touching the marines would have been key to keep from getting shot. Obviously this is mere conjecture on my part as I cant see what happened or how exactly he was deployed.

usually my beasts are deployed horizontally to take up about a 15-24 inch zone in my deployment and early movement. That way you can charge a bunch of things. As ryan can attest when he was playing his friends Ig at templecon, turn 2 the beasts charged his 2 solo leman russ tanks along with a 40 man blob squad. I only put a few attacks into the blob, and killed one leman russ and immobilized the other. The key to beasts is multi charging. If you charge one thing you arent trying hard enough.

Th AGL was horizontal and stretched and the mortars to one side and the manticore to other. The Russes were central. He spreadmout as much as he could. I did manage to multi-assault mortals and take out one leman russ and damage the other but could not stretch to the manticore. The primaris was hidden behind the manticore - he moved him when I threatened. As I said it was a very close game. I could have risked the game going on an extra turn and waited with my bikes and probably would have won. He also got terrific results on his blasts which did not help me and made some great saves. I did have terrify and hallucination - never rolled misfortune - as well - forgot to mention it but did not get invisibility until my last role or definitely would have gone for prescience. Hallucination was interesting oin the guard blob, lol. I just had really bad charge rolls - even with fleet - my reserves arrived way too early and overall it made the game very close. Be aware also that this is just the third game playing with the beastpack on foot and the first using the Taloi. I have to really upgrade my game and be aware of the rules and innuendos. I wasn't knocking the list per say. And I'm sure I can do better with it. Might take a few more practice games though. And my oppnenet was well aware of what he would be facing trying to avoid too many multi-assaults. All in a fun game though and good experience. Ah yes - should mention that themission was purge the alien.

Might have a problem with Chaos Demons. The Tzeentch flamers ignore cover saves and wound on a 4+; it's wipe the beast on overwatch.

I have some questions about the list. No questions about the beast component but some questions about the rest.

I understand the original poster dislikes the DE vehicles so went with large infantry mobs. It seems to me that since eldar and DE have such fragile units that beasts should skew target priority.

Thinking:

Vect
Baron
Eldrad
5 Beastmasters 5 khymerae 8 flocks
16 warriors w S Cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
Guardian jet bike squad
3 war walkers w 2 scatter lasers
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon

1747

This gives a large blob, the beasts hammer, 4 venoms and 3 walkers. All fragile high priority targets that put out tons if aggressive fire and has some options to open up light vehicles faster. I assume I am missing something obvious.

-S

serathnal wrote:
I have some questions about the list. No questions about the beast component but some questions about the rest.

I understand the original poster dislikes the DE vehicles so went with large infantry mobs. It seems to me that since eldar and DE have such fragile units that beasts should skew target priority.

Thinking:

Vect
Baron
Eldrad
5 Beastmasters 5 khymerae 8 flocks
16 warriors w S Cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
Guardian jet bike squad
3 war walkers w 2 scatter lasers
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon

1747

This gives a large blob, the beasts hammer, 4 venoms and 3 walkers. All fragile high priority targets that put out tons if aggressive fire and has some options to open up light vehicles faster. I assume I am missing something obvious.

-S

You need a second eldar troop choice and your also a little low on scoring units. The great thing about the defense line is the fact that you run towards it first turn and got a 2+ coversave with invisibility (see op list). Splintercannons are nice but you should let your beast unit do the anti infantry work.

The DE are the primary FOC (Wyches and Warriors are troops); Eldar as secondary has Eldrad and one troop choice (EJB). List is legal, but I'd worry about how fragile the troop choices are (I'm assuming the EJB squad is only 3 strong).

I understand the original poster dislikes the DE vehicles so went with large infantry mobs.

Actually that is not true. I am testing the infantry version but we also have a version with flyers that our group is testing. It seems though thst the infantry version has some pluses. Making a good prtion of your opponent's army superfluous (anti-air and anti-vehicle) is not too shabby. Going infantry allows us to use larger meatier squads or more squads (troops are important in 6ed). The negative is that you have to get everything properly in position - I made a key error with a squad bikes and a squad of wyches last game. I should have kept the wyches back in cover terrain and just relied on the beastpack to take out the tanks instead of needlessly exposing them ... granted they work as bait. The problem was my opponent had a lot of templates coming my way and our troops are very fragile. It might seem easy to get by the bubblewrap to the tanks - Sean makes it look so - but in this game because of the spacing and the fact that there were five units spread out - maticore, russes, three mortars - it was more difficult to achieve. Plus a rifledread stood in the way. But I'm not sure venoms are the answer. Reavers would have been nice. And when playing GK if there is reinforced Aegis about you do not want to target a GK unit with your psychic powers. Something I didn't mention in the previous thread.

OrdoSean wrote:
Great report jy2!

I ran into someone running biovores and flyrants recently at an event and the biovores killed most of my 20 man warrior brick in one turns shooting. I had bunched them up fully expecting that death to happen but the reward was too great, he had placed one of his flyrants about 28" away in deployment from my lines so I used eldrads redeployent to get all 20 warriors and my true born units into shooting range on him, then bunched up to get all the splinter rifles in 24" range to kill him turn 1. So while it was a conscious trade on my part it definitely showed what the biovores can do.

Your report also illustrates why I think fearless is so important to the death star. Im a terrible die roller, if i need to pass a ld check i will fail. I take plenty of things that let me reroll dice(vulkan, prescience, preferred enemy) I need it all. The council has embolden to keep it semi safe from shooting morale, but I worry about him getting stuck into a combat with both his beasts and council and losing and getting his whole army swept off. Keeping baron with the council can help if he can get some quick kills to get 3 pain tokens, but if not he better keep some space between the units.

Tyarnids are scary to beast stars. Multiple enfeebles can get you killed pretty quickly.

Thanks!

Biovores are great not only for their offense, but because they affect the way your opponent plays. In both of my games against deldar, my opponent put his troops in reserves. If I didn't have them (the biovores), he said he would have deployed them for the firepower. I've had many games in which my biovores forced my opponents to change their deployments or to reserve their units. Hey...less units to try to ground my flyrants! But in this game, it wasn't so bad for my opponent. At least he got rid of the Doom (thus, potentially eliminating a Linebreaker threat as well) with them and being so close to the table edge, there was a chance they may survive if the blasts scatter off the table.

He had Eldrad with the beastpack so there was only a 1 in 6 chance for him to fail. But what can you do when you are playing a psychic heavy eldar army? Personally, I prefer Eldrad's "psychativity" to Baharoth's fearlessness and Hit&Run but that's just me. And with Fortune, that 10-man seer council is unbelievable hard to break, especially with Embolden there.

Multiple Enfeebles hurt, but not as much to eldar. With a Lvl 2 psyker in 1 unit and a Lvl 3 psyker in another and with Runes, it's actually pretty tough to get off.

Doesn't Eldrad lack Fleet? That's got to hurt.

somerandomdude wrote:
Doesn't Eldrad lack Fleet? That's got to hurt.

Against tyranids? Dunno. Didn't really matter all that much as I had reduced his beastpack to not very much in both games.

But in our first game, he had the Baron attached to the beast squad as well. Fleet wasn't an issue. Hit&Run gives him 3d6" of movement and then he has his normal beast movement after that. Getting the charge wasn't an issue at all.

Overall, in general, not having fleet on the beast unit isn't so bad. With a move, run and then move again (Turn 2), they should be within easy striking distance of almost any opponent (especially when you have the seer council to otherwise draw their attention).

If nothing else it has got us thinking of other combinations of Dark Eldar allies lists. What units or good, what units are simply not working, what weaknesses we need to shore up, etc. Reading reports from Sean, Ryan and JY2 has given me enough insight now to have answered the question in the original post ... I get how these lists work. Now I'm curious to see what other lists I can make with my old DE ( not going to go the harliestar route though). Hopefully We will end up sending a few of these lists down to Indie if we can get the money sorted.