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 LordofHats wrote:

We're talking about training them to pick fruit, not fight one another to the death... Although...

A large part of Spartacus's army were farmers...

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 kronk wrote:

It worked for the Romans!

I'm Sparticus!

We're talking about training them to pick fruit, not fight one another to the death... Although...

See you're not thinking out of the box. Put them in the box, with short swords...

What about letting the Aristocrats pay for the orgies? How quickly can we bring down the debt with this?

NOW you're thinking!

 Firehead158 wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Yes but you've never been in prison, where they only thing close to woman you'll see is a pre-pubescent girl on DIsney. There's a reason many prisoners turn gay in prison, and your deluding yourself if you think plenty of them aren't stroking themselves to sleep to Hannah Montana.

They don't turn "gay", they just...take what they can get. Granted, I don't have many friends that have been to prison(or any for that matter), but people who I know have gone to prison didn't come out trying to find a new boyfriend or whatever. I don't really know though.

I don't know what you'd call men having sex with men other than gay. Yes they turn back once they're out, but they're still having gay sex. And so says my friend that works in a max security, a lot of them take it without asking, if you catch my drift.

Palindrome wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

We're talking about training them to pick fruit, not fight one another to the death... Although...

A large part of Spartacus's army were farmers...

Explains why his 'army' lost. Doesn't it?

 Frazzled wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 kronk wrote:

It worked for the Romans!

I'm Sparticus!

We're talking about training them to pick fruit, not fight one another to the death... Although...

See you're not thinking out of the box. Put them in the box, with short swords...

Isn't that now Angron got his start?

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
I don't know what you'd call men having sex with men other than gay.

It seems the problem is more that you lack the vocabulary to describe the phenomena, not that they are actually gay; there is more to being gay than simple sexual encounters. The general term, if I recall correctly, is situational sexuality, which encompasses more then just location based same gender encounters.

You say that like its a bad thing.

Where I come from in Ireland, picking strawberries for a pittance is (or was, 15 years ago) a common job for kids looking for some pocket money. It was how I earned the money I spent on models back when I was a kid. It's hard work, the acid gets in your fingers and makes them swell and the skin peels off sometimes, and you're crouched over all day picking in the rain or sun, but at the end of it there was money for you if you kept going. A decent life lesson and probably helped keep me so skinny. Maybe you guys could start pointing kids that way and deal with this obesity thing ye've got going on? Though maybe they'd just eat the strawberries.

Anyhow. How do you square this whole free market ideal with the idea that people working for low wages is bad because it's cheating? Seems like some cognitive dissonance going around again.

 Da Boss wrote:
Where I come from in Ireland, picking strawberries for a pittance is (or was, 15 years ago) a common job for kids looking for some pocket money. It was how I earned the money I spent on models back when I was a kid. It's hard work, the acid gets in your fingers and makes them swell and the skin peels off sometimes, and you're crouched over all day picking in the rain or sun, but at the end of it there was money for you if you kept going. A decent life lesson and probably helped keep me so skinny. Maybe you guys could start pointing kids that way and deal with this obesity thing ye've got going on? Though maybe they'd just eat the strawberries.

Anyhow. How do you square this whole free market ideal with the idea that people working for low wages is bad because it's cheating? Seems like some cognitive dissonance going around again.

Its' not so much as "cognitive dissonance" as it's just sound business.

Employers will always seek to drive down operation costs... and if there's incentive for them to hire illegal works, they will do so until the alternative isn't worth it.

That's why I'd advocate fining the business heavily if caught.

And, it's more than just produce... I remember recently that there were a meat packing company in Illinois that had ENTIRE illegal families working there. That's bad.

One thing that should be cleared up is that the farm workers arn't getting paid pittence wages. They actually make some pretty nice money. Far more than you'd make working at Burger King or Macys.

The issue is that its hard work and the pay isn't high enough to where your average job seeker would be willing to take it. Its not an issue of pay, or an issue of hard work, its the two combined that means Illegals are the main group that will take the job.



The solution that would work best IMO is to slightly relax the restrictions on migrant workers, increase the penelties on hiring illegals, and stiffen border security.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One thing that should be cleared up is that the farm workers arn't getting paid pittence wages. They actually make some pretty nice money. Far more than you'd make working at Burger King or Macys.

The issue is that its hard work and the pay isn't high enough to where your average job seeker would be willing to take it. Its not an issue of pay, or an issue of hard work, its the two combined that means Illegals are the main group that will take the job.



The solution that would work best IMO is to slightly relax the restrictions on migrant workers, increase the penelties on hiring illegals, and stiffen border security.

If they're making such good pay why are they living thirty people to a shed? They don't make even close to minimum wage, depending on whats being picked and so forth. High dollar fruits are going to pay more than low dollar, but its never much.

The reason they live in the shed is because they need to be close to the crop and they wish to save money to send back to Mexico.

I think you're talking out of your ass Grey.

http://www.ncfh.org/docs/fs-Migrant%20Demographics.pdf

No, that survey is correct and I am correct at the same time.

They make good money per hour of work, but the work only lasts for a short time. When you spread all of what they make over the year, yes they aren't making tons of money.


But if you consider what they make per hour its pretty decent.

And yes, I do know what i am talking about. I'm involved in CA agriculture.

From the link, the average worker pay is between 12,500 to 15,000.

Now minimum wage at 40 hrs a week amounts to 16K. Add in the fact these workers are working far more hours a week than 40 and you'll see they're making far less than you seem to think.

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Where I come from in Ireland, picking strawberries for a pittance is (or was, 15 years ago) a common job for kids looking for some pocket money. It was how I earned the money I spent on models back when I was a kid. It's hard work, the acid gets in your fingers and makes them swell and the skin peels off sometimes, and you're crouched over all day picking in the rain or sun, but at the end of it there was money for you if you kept going. A decent life lesson and probably helped keep me so skinny. Maybe you guys could start pointing kids that way and deal with this obesity thing ye've got going on? Though maybe they'd just eat the strawberries.

Anyhow. How do you square this whole free market ideal with the idea that people working for low wages is bad because it's cheating? Seems like some cognitive dissonance going around again.

Its' not so much as "cognitive dissonance" as it's just sound business.

Employers will always seek to drive down operation costs... and if there's incentive for them to hire illegal works, they will do so until the alternative isn't worth it.

That's why I'd advocate fining the business heavily if caught.

And, it's more than just produce... I remember recently that there were a meat packing company in Illinois that had ENTIRE illegal families working there. That's bad.

The entire construction industry in Texas and California are this way.

How exactly are you "involved in CA agriculture" that makes you such an expert on these matters if I may ask?

They arn't working all year round, which is what the poverty level is based on. Making 16k a year is based on $7.69 an hour for a 40 hour workweek with a 52 weeks total.

They only work for a few weeks a year on a particular job. If they made that money all year round it would be a decent pay.


I am going to school at a highly recognized agricultural university for an Ag Business degree. You live accross the country in NY. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, but given the circumstances I'm fairly certain I know more about it than you do.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, that survey is correct and I am correct at the same time.

They make good money per hour of work, but the work only lasts for a short time. When you spread all of what they make over the year, yes they aren't making tons of money.


But if you consider what they make per hour its pretty decent.

And yes, I do know what i am talking about. I'm involved in CA agriculture.

They do something else the rest of the year. Hence the term migratory workers.

Thank you Frazzled. Least you understand the term.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
From the link, the average worker pay is between 12,500 to 15,000.

Now minimum wage at 40 hrs a week amounts to 16K. Add in the fact these workers are working far more hours a week than 40 and you'll see they're making far less than you seem to think.

Again, you're mixing apples and oranges (pun intended). They get paid per hour, for a short period of time. If you averaged it out you would have to average out that they make the same amount per hour year around for a minimum 40 hours per week.

Regardless, you're both right. Its not CEO wages and its hard as hell.

Exactly. They do other stuff the rest of the year, and when its all added up it adds to a low income amount. But the harvesting does pay very high when it comes around.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Thank you Frazzled. Least you understand the term.

Think about like on Deadliest catch, where the crab fishermen make an ungodly amount of money for a short period of time. Its poor if thats all they did, but beaucoup excellent for the amount of time they were out.

Now get rid of the "ungodly" amount part.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
I think you're talking out of your ass Grey.

http://www.ncfh.org/docs/fs-Migrant%20Demographics.pdf

No... he's not. In NW Michigan we have a big migrant worker population every fall to harvest apples and cherries. They'd live several families to a small place because it allowed them to save a ton of money, and they would live like kings back in Mexico the rest of the year.

I got this straight from the mouths of their kids who'd be in our school during the fall.

Information gathered on Migrant workers is also going to inherently be unreliable as they are generally not cooperative with the government workers that would be gathering the information.

 djones520 wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
I think you're talking out of your ass Grey.

http://www.ncfh.org/docs/fs-Migrant%20Demographics.pdf

No... he's not. In NW Michigan we have a big migrant worker population every fall to harvest apples and cherries. They'd live several families to a small place because it allowed them to save a ton of money, and they would live like kings back in Mexico the rest of the year.

I got this straight from the mouths of their kids who'd be in our school during the fall.

And as per the link, 13K a year doesn't really let you live anywhere but a shack with large groups of people, especially if you're trying to send money back. We're both right, in a sense.


And I do find it cute Grey that your college classes and the fact I live in NY mean so much. I mean, I couldn't possibly have grown in farm country with large numbers of migrant workers could I? Cuz only CA has any farms right?

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
I think you're talking out of your ass Grey.

http://www.ncfh.org/docs/fs-Migrant%20Demographics.pdf

No... he's not. In NW Michigan we have a big migrant worker population every fall to harvest apples and cherries. They'd live several families to a small place because it allowed them to save a ton of money, and they would live like kings back in Mexico the rest of the year.

I got this straight from the mouths of their kids who'd be in our school during the fall.

And as per the link, 13K a year doesn't really let you live anywhere but a shack with large groups of people, especially if you're trying to send money back. We're both right, in a sense.


And I do find it cute Grey that your college classes and the fact I live in NY mean so much. I mean, I couldn't possibly have grown in farm country with large numbers of migrant workers could I? Cuz only CA has any farms right?

Except the people that data is documenting don't live there all year. They live there for 5-6 months at the most. Their migrant farm workers. Seasonal jobs.

DutchKillsRambo, as one antagonistic person to another, you're very antagonistic.

Also, don't say "cuz". Write out "because", but don't start a sentence with either it, "so", or "and". Saying cuz and prolly are worse crimes than getting You're, your, they're, there, and their mixed up.

You're right, I don't know about your situation. But I know you are way less likely to have been exposed to it than I have.

The fact stands, for those few weeks of harvest, they make darn good money. Its not going to feed a family of 6 for an entire year, but its good money for the time spent to make it.

And you still owe me an apology.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
And I never did quite the get the Disney thing. Surely you could find better TV programming besides that which will be pre-teen spank bank for the prisoners? Just odd, especially if there any pedos in the prison. Thats most likely what they watch on the outside.

Yeah, Have them watch SYFY's weekly lineup.
No, NVM, that might induce a murderous rampage.