Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now that I think of it, why do we, 40k gamers have such a bad reputation in the world. I mean it's just a hobby like all other hobbies- I just don't get it why people are so hostile, and think it's a waste of time.

It first started with my parents- they always were saying that 40k books aren't good, as you 'live' in a fictional world, and the hobby is just a waste of money,

I just really don't understand why people hate it sometimes?

"Parents just don't understand".
-Will Smith 199?

People say everything is a waste of time and money. Books, video-games, models, card games, TV, movies.

Who cares? Life can't be all work.

well its a wast of time to go to work or to live if ya think about it no ones immortal so why drag it out. my answer to this at least is because i want to and people have the right to use there money how they want to and there time so use it as you please each persons different so enjoy life in what ever manner you feel except don't start killing people there is a limit.

Well, Because we are not persuing traditional male pursuits mostly. Society doesnt like it when you don't do things it thinks you should.

High Culture vs Low Culture

You'll never see parents join support groups because they are growing concerned at how much time their children are spending reading novels.

All hobbies are considered a waste of time, because you don't spend time studying or building up skills that can earn you more money.

 AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
All hobbies are considered a waste of time, because you don't spend time studying or building up skills that can earn you more money.

Wouldn't say this about ALL hobbies, but most of the hobbies we traditionally think of fall under this category. Some "hobbies" like shooting, woodworking, or even math really (since, some people do math as a hobby. Hey, if you enjoy it why not?) can be useful later in life depending on what you want to do for a living, and your early hobbies usually relate to that in someway.

My parents were always pretty supportive of it, since it actually got anti-social me to interact with people all the while I was doing something I was actually pretty good at (since I was terrible at just about every sport or hobby I had tried, the modeling/painting aspect was a bit more challenging since I lacked any sort of hand-eye coordination. Im much better now, but still pretty bad haha. The actual gaming part I was always great with.)

I think it may be the whole "nerdy geeks" stereotype, i.e pimply guys playing D&D in their basement. People just take the general premise and judge it right away; "guys playing with plastic models and dice", but they never take into account the camaraderie, competition, strategies, and imagination that 40k gives us.

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
it's just a hobby like all other hobbies

Exactly, Assembling, Painting, Playing is not "wasting time" it's the same with any hobby. I go fishing in the summer "waste" money and time on bait and lures and sometimes don't even catch a thing. Granted fishing is a little cheaper, but it's the same concept.

I have just found that people see the financial side of 40k or miniature gaming in general. They see complicated rule sets that require too much effort to play. Having to go to a game store where there is terrain and play a game that lasts hours is just too odd for some people. They miss the fact that you are pretty much hanging with friends the whole time. The modelling and painting aspect, which is essentially art, is often overlooked too. We are just so misunderstood. /sigh

Many people don't understand why adolescents and adults find playing with toys so interesting. The common perception is we go around saying "pew pew" and knocking stuff around.

They think that we're childish, nerdy, smell bad and probably won't ever get married. Big Bang Theory and its presentation of the stereotypical geek sub-culture certainly isn't helping either.

Because people love looking down on people. Computer nerds were looked down on- until "video games are awesome lol lol!". But tabletop games take money/time/effort that most people can't for various reasons, so it's easy to marginalize table top gamers.

Plus, most table top gamers (that I know), tend to keep quiet about it at their day jobs... except for TFGs. Who do tend to fit the stereotype, and don't do much for image

Or heck, people might just dislike people with more disposible income than them

A hobby is a hobby. The naysayers probably have something they do thats just as trivial and "silly" as the wargaming hobby.

I think a lot of the criticism comes from the fact that people see the surface of the hobby in passing, that is to say, a GW or LGS full of sweaty nerdy kids, screaming WAAAAGH, being loud and boisterous, smelling like last weeks gym kits, being emo and undisciplined. i admit thats the worst things will get but it does leave a lasting impression. The amount of time you will spend playing games is small compared to painting, and converting miniatures (which takes skill and patience) but its the passing impression that people get that leads to the criticism and bad image of the hobby.

That said, most of my co-workers either know about WHFB/40k, have played it in the past, or still do but don't tell anyone about it. so its not exactly that uncommon (at least in my area) but neither is it something people will generally advertise in the same way that they do CoD or sports

 Far Seer wrote:
Big Bang Theory and its presentation of the stereotypical geek sub-culture certainly isn't helping either.

Aside from being an incredibly unfunny show (with it's use of about 2 different jokes), the way people react when I tell them what I do for a living is what drives me crazy about it.

"Oh so are you like X character from the big bang theory?" No. I'm not, because no one in academia is like that. In fact no one in the world is like that.

In the UK the image that follows GW and 40K players is a trench-coat wearing goth. Pale, skinny and with long greasy hair. I've never met anyone like that in my many years of playing 40k.



It reminds me of one of my favorite TV shows:

"Look I'm sorry if in an infantisised world I ended up with the non cool toys, but why exactly is arranging a model...somehow less cool than pretending on a computer you're a Russian pimp stealing imaginary cars?"

 Griddlelol wrote:

In the UK the image that follows GW and 40K players is a trench-coat wearing goth. Pale, skinny and with long greasy hair. I've never met anyone like that in my many years of playing 40k.

It reminds me of one of my favorite TV shows:

"Look I'm sorry if in an infantisised world I ended up with the non cool toys, but why exactly is arranging a model...somehow less cool than pretending on a computer you're a Russian pimp stealing imaginary cars?"

Your lucky if you never met anyone like that. Trust me they're out there. Love that quote btw.

Point is this hobby, or anything like it, is really never going to be considered cool. But why do you want it to be?

The worst judgement people can make in my eyes is grouping war gamers with the same kind of people who play an unhealthy amount of video games. Calling me a nerd is fine but please create some other term for the guy who spends more than four hours a week alone "socialising" with people through a head mic in front of a tv/computer screen.

Wargaming can help you learn sportsmanship, skills like sculpting, painting etc. meet new people etc. Video games give you barely anything which you can use outside of that hobby.

Most people think that enjoying hobbies they don't personally like are wastes of time. It's always been rampant narcissism. The stuff they like is important because "they" like it. And everyone should be cool just like them, right?

Hell, I just got home from a LARP event with my wife. I had tons of fun playing as Marcus Gideon, Paladin, wielding a fabric-covered foam great-hammer and hitting my friends in the two-foot deep snow, wearing 30 pounds of armor up here in Michigan. All the while my wife is "blowing things up" as her Elven mage right behind me.

Glorioski wrote: Video games give you barely anything which you can use outside of that hobby.

That's not fair at all. Video games teach many valid things, morality, appreciation of art, decision making and hand eye coordination to mention a few obvious examples. Believe it or not, not all games are CoD where you listen to children swear at you. My life would be for the worse without video games. They're my form of escapism, and they are an art in their own right. Just like how you get trashy movies such as Transformers, you also get gems like American Beauty. It's the same with games.

AegisGrimm wrote:
Hell, I just got home from a LARP event with my wife.

Role playing is something I could never do. DnD, LARP or any of those things. It just doesn't sit with me. I'm no where near bombastic enough. However, I'd never call it a waste of time. I don't enjoy fishing or poker, but I wouldn't call those a waste of time either. Entertainment is never a waste of time.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Glorioski wrote: Video games give you barely anything which you can use outside of that hobby.

That's not fair at all. Video games teach many valid things, morality, appreciation of art, decision making and hand eye coordination to mention a few obvious examples. Believe it or not, not all games are CoD where you listen to children swear at you. My life would be for the worse without video games. They're my form of escapism, and they are an art in their own right. Just like how you get trashy movies such as Transformers, you also get gems like American Beauty. It's the same with games.

I don't think video games teach you hand eye coordination in any more of a way that writing with a pen and paper does. Also I know plenty of people into video games who make terrible life decisions and have no appreciation of art, which again suggests that's wrong also.

Look at it like this. As a war gamer I can sculpt and paint a model to a high standard, show it to somebody who has no interest in the hobby and still they can appreciate the finished article. Nobody looks from outside the video gaming hobby at whatever level you are in your video game of choice and comes away impressed.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Far Seer wrote:
Big Bang Theory and its presentation of the stereotypical geek sub-culture certainly isn't helping either.

Aside from being an incredibly unfunny show (with it's use of about 2 different jokes), the way people react when I tell them what I do for a living is what drives me crazy about it.

"Oh so are you like X character from the big bang theory?" No. I'm not, because no one in academia is like that. In fact no one in the world is like that.

In the UK the image that follows GW and 40K players is a trench-coat wearing goth. Pale, skinny and with long greasy hair. I've never met anyone like that in my many years of playing 40k.

I've met a few wargamers that fit that description, but its really just an appearence. They're really nice guys.

 Glorioski wrote:


I don't think video games teach you hand eye coordination in any more of a way that writing with a pen and paper does.

Firstly, there is plenty of objective evidence that video games increase reaction time and hand eye coordination. I don't know how you managed to equate that to writing, other than your obvious bias.

Also I know plenty of people into video games who make terrible life decisions and have no appreciation of art, which again suggests that's wrong also.

Cool, I know wargamers who do class A drugs. What's your point? Again, you're listing all video games under one title. It doesn't suggest it's wrong, it's merely consistent with the idea that not all people play the same type of games. Just because people make bad decisions, doesn't mean that games don't cause you to question your morality. Just because someone who plays CoD doesn't appreciate design or beauty found in art doesn't mean that other games like Journey don't help develop that.

As a war gamer I can sculpt and paint a model to a high standard, show it to somebody who has no interest in the hobby and still they can appreciate the finished article. Nobody looks from outside the video gaming hobby at whatever level you are in your video game of choice and comes away impressed.

That's completely irrelevant. If your self worth is tied to your hobbies, great. Good for you. Mine isn't. People appreciate my models, and they appreciate the insight into some topics that I've gained from playing certain games. Whether or not they know that I developed that from gaming is not the point.

The point is there are obvious productive skills within the wargamning hobby such as sculpting and painting which will definitely be practised and developed. What you have suggested that Video games give you is un-obvious and subjective and what's more there are plenty of better places you can learn an appreciation of art (reading, expeditions etc), reaction times (sport) which suggests people do not take up video gaming in order to improve these skills as it appears to be an inefficient place to do it. Rather it is because they have nothing better to do. I enjoy playing the odd video game but I treat it as a bit of fun, I don't see it as a productive use of my time.

I'm still struggling to see anyone naming video games as one of their hobbies on their CV and being able to explain to a potential employer who doesn't play video games why it's a worthwhile use of their time.

If you turn up to work on a monday and ask what your colleagues have been doing over the weekend. one says they played 24 hours of Journey and the other says he spent twenty four hours working on his Dark Angels army...who has made a more productive use of their time? It seems quite obvious to me.

 Glorioski wrote:
The point is there are obvious productive skills within the wargamning hobby such as sculpting and painting which will definitely be practised and developed.

Practical skills like colouring in an cutting things to the shape of other things. I have never needed to use those in my job. Ever. Maths however, I have needed to use in my job. All the time. Yes, this is in wargaming, but it is also in video games. Often far more complex than simple addition or probability. Of course manual dexterity is increased by modelling and painting too.

You are also claiming that practical skills are the key part of a hobby. I find that actually repulsive in a rather (I can't think of a better word)...Soviet way. I watch movies, I adore them. What practical skills am I learning there? How is cinema any less of a valid hobby than wargaming? Similarly, how is gaming any less of a valid hobby just because you develop less practical skills? I suppose reading must be useless too.

What you have suggested that Video games give you is un-obvious and subjective...

Subjective? I've already mentioned that hand-eye coordination and reaction times are backed up by evidence. How exactly do you measure appreciation for art? Artometer? Of course that's subjective. So is morality. There are of course people who don't question why they're shooting the baddies, but then there are people who do. There are also people who put down the controller at decision moments to contemplate how their choice will affect the imaginary world they're in. As I mentioned earlier, why do practical skills have to be the only gain?

and what's more there are plenty of better places you can learn an appreciation of art (reading, expeditions etc), reaction times (sport) which suggests people do not take up video gaming in order to improve these skills as it appears to be an inefficient place to do it.

Like what? I do not enjoy reading. There are lots of people who do not enjoy reading, yet video games allow me to do the same things, but with interactivity. Going to the Lake district to climb mountains is something I do when I have a week or two off work. Not something I do in my lunch break or on weekends. Gaming is rather more efficient in that respect, wouldn't you say? Sports are not always as good at minute hand-eye coordination development as video games. Anecdotal evidence of course, but a surgeon buddy of mine says that playing X-box does indeed help with dexterity. Of course so would playing piano, but not everyone has the inclination to do that.

Now you seem to be confusing yourself. I never once said that video games should be played to the exclusion of all other things. That's a ridiculous stand to take.

I'm still strugling to see anyone naming video games as one of their hobbies on their CV and being able to explain to a potential employer who doesn't play video games why it;s a worthwhile use of their time.

I don't name wargaming either. All you're portraying here is that people have an incorrect bias against video games. Assuming they're all LOLZ SHOOT THE ALIENZ. Just because people do not understand or know the benefits doesn't mean there aren't any.
I reiterate (since you're very focused on this) hobbies do not have to provide benefits within a job. I don't know why you seem to think my leisure time should be focussed on becoming a model employee, but many people don't see it that way, and perhaps you should consider that too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glorioski wrote:

If you turn up to work on a monday and ask what your colleagues have been doing over the weekend. one says they played 24 hours of Journey and the other says he spent twenty four hours working on his Dark Angels army...who has made a more productive use of their time? It seems quite obvious to me.

Again with the productivity.

Journey is an emotional roller coaster. I'd love to share my feelings and experiences with someone else who played that game. To hear how they felt at different points and their understanding of certain metaphors.
Working on a DA army is great an all, but it's nothing compared to the experience I felt with Journey. I think you need to expand your mind a little. Become open to emotional and intellectual advancement. Rather than focussing on productivity.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Now you seem to be confusing yourself. I never once said that video games should be played to the exclusion of all other things. That's a ridiculous stand point to make.

It's not ridiculous at all. Especially considering the first point I made, which you then responded to and I believed we were talking about, was specifically concerning playing video games to excess.

I really believe that to be rather pointless, much like this argument. Which has now sunk to the level of mocking my character and saying I should "expand my mind a little" on the assumption I have no artistic interests.

It is because we are seperating ourselves from society in order to have fun. We are making ourselves different to everyone else, thereby making us an easier target to single out. You can be the sporty, smart good looking one at work or school, as soon as you say "I play Warhammer/table top games" You are instantly a freak because you are different to society's self-created view of 'Us and Them.'

 Glorioski wrote:


It's not ridiculous at all. Especially considering the first point I made, which you then responded to and I believed we were talking about, was specifically concerning playing video games to excess.

If you consider >4 hours a week to be excessive then I don't know what to say. I play more than 4 hours a week, and I watch more than 4 hours of movies a week. I also spend 10 hours at work everyday. I suppose I'm a work-a-holic who also has video game compulsion.

I really believe that to be rather pointless, much like this argument. Which has now sunk to the level of mocking my character and saying I should "expand my mind a little" on the assumption I have no artistic interests.

I made that conjecture based on your own logic. All your arguments for video games being a pointless hobby are based on productivity and transferable skills. I was not attempting to "mock" you, more point out that you seem to have a fascination on being productive, rather than following artistic and emotional pursuits as a hobby.

I never once assumed I'd change your mind, but I feel as though an important artistic medium required some defending.

I don't believe I'm the only person on earth who considers hobbies to be productive pursuits and the enjoyment of books, films and video games to be interests rather than hobbies. Hence why when I ask someone what their hobbies are and they tell me that their hobbies are football and gardening, I don't then assume that they have no interest in reading or television etc because they didn't list them also.

 Glorioski wrote:
I don't believe I'm the only person on earth who considers hobbies to be productive pursuits and the enjoyment of books, films and video games to be interests rather than hobbies. Hence why when I ask someone what their hobbies are and they tell me that their hobbies are football and gardening, I don't then assume that they have no interest in reading or television etc because they didn't list them also.

Now that seems to be a semantic argument. It's pretty weak considering the definition of a hobby is "an activity or interest done in ones leisure time." There is no rule book that says a hobby must be productive. When someone asks me my hobbies, I reference my enjoyment of gaming, cinema and animation. I don't bring up that I play rugby or paint models.

I take your point, it was wrong of me to assume such.

However, it has little bearing on whether video games are a valid hobby, or on how you consider people who play video games to be some sort of lesser person than you (considering your disdain for being grouped with them).

Also, I apologise to OP for hijacking the thread.