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Hello, I have been brainstorming a custom chapter to start as a project soon and I have gotten pretty stuck on which codex to use. From a fluff standpoint I can be pretty flexible but I am right now willing to use the DA, BA, BT, or the vanilla codex. I have been leaning towards the good old vannila codex but my problem is I just don't see the point in doing the vanilla dex. I know that I get access to the Cannon and the Stormtalon but are the DA and BA dex's strictly just better now? Having assault available as troops is really cool and the DC are really cool (reasons for me to do BA) and having termis as troops seems a nice thing to do too (reason to do DA). I cannot do either of these with the vanilla dex, it just seems less flexible. Will someone please just sell me on the vanilla codex?

First, as you've noted, the TFC is a heck of a reason by itself. Secondly, being able to break on purpose is almost universally better than being Fearless (1 time in 6) or being Stubborn. I use BAs, but the vanilla codex is always a tempting alternative.

I do recognize that the TFC is awesome and I like the model. I just like some of the BA models and I think assault marines are just plain neat. They will just be not red at all lol

The vanilla codex also has TH/SS terminators (i dont believe the other marine codexes got access to those), as well as a bunch of unique characters with different chapter tactics. you could 'counts-as' your chapter master as one of them if you find your chapter of a specific flavor in there.

EDIT: my mistake, i checked and blood angels have TH/SS termies too.

Do the BA DA get sternguard w special ammo? NullZone Libbies? StormTalons? Ironclads? TFC? MotF? Cheap Termies? Scoring Sternguard? Vulcan? Lysander? Telion? Shrike?

I don't have the BA codex with me right now, but if these things appeal to you maybe SM are for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From an older post of mine, on how the SM codex still does well. Thought it might be relevant to this thread

I think people who find the SM codex to be a punishment miss the point.

BA? Assault troops, blender 'naughts, and fast goodies... but SM can get awful close using Shrike and MotF or the like... as good? No, but really very very close

GK? Broken 2+ big Monster Cheese fest.... but a solid CF/IF Sternguard force can do similar things in similar ways (special ammos, heavy terminators, deep striking, etc).

SW? Razor GH spam with LF split firing... a little tougher to approximate, but you can use scoring Sternguard, or Vulkan pods, plus combat squad some heavies to let them split fire. SM have better dreads and cheaper TH/SS. As good? No, but can play the same game the same way and compete

DA? Yeah, Wings, I get it... but wings, meet 400 point TH/SS squads, better flier, White Scar tactics, scout bikes etc. Even old and dusty, the SM codex can approximate fairly well.

BT? NM, Already better

And that's just mimicking the gimmicks. SM can do their own little tricks and pull their own weight just fine. I'm 100% truthful in saying that I hope the SM codex doesn't get touched for awhile (doesn't need it, others certainly do). Other than missing SF on the Dev squads and a Vanguard overhaul there's not much the SM codex is needing right now. For anyone figuring out the game, or loving the blending of all the specialist codices, SM are fine. If you want flexible, jack of all trades, PA and forgiving... head to Codex Space Marines.

Blood Angels do in fact get straight up Sternguard with special ammo, and even a Captain carrying a combi-melta with said ammo. Their flier is also substantially better than the stormtalon.

Dark Angels don't have that ammo at all because they're silly and keep their entire first company in Terminator armour.

The one best reason to play the baseline codex is Combat Tactics. It was good in 5th and is better in 6th as there is no longer any way to stop you from regrouping. Some stuff in the book is still badly overcosted (lascannons on devastators, hah) but that hardly matters as there's more than enough that is efficiently priced.

I'd say the BA codex is weaker than the vanilla codex. Assault marines are an expensive, and fairly weak troops choice. Death company are shoddy and unless you want to run a full on mech list with a ton of predators and vindicators, BA probably isn't for you.

DA on the other hand is decent. I've read the codex a lot and it feels well balanced. I'm looking forward to playing someone (most people are in the process of painting their DA force still). It also has 3 viable builds, which I think is awesome.

I have a few reasons:

- Vulkan drop pod armies

- Bike armies

Drop pods are back in a big way, there is very little to stop them now, and really with vulkan your multimeltas are twin linked vs fliers. Bike armies in the vanilla codex are better for one simple reason; combat tactics, the ability to avoid the hell out of combat. Sure ravenwing have hit and run, but it does you no good unless its an enemies turn, leaving you in combat for 2 rounds and not firing.

TFC is alright, combat tactics is over-rated. Oh wow, you got 3 free bolter shots against those guys who just assaulted you...congrats.

I'd probably go with DA, though BA get sternguard and army-wide FNP+FC. Death Company in particular are insane good.

 BryllCream wrote:
TFC is alright, combat tactics is over-rated. Oh wow, you got 3 free bolter shots against those guys who just assaulted you...congrats.

I'd probably go with DA, though BA get sternguard and army-wide FNP+FC. Death Company in particular are insane good.

The idea of combat tactics is to keep you out of assault range, and thus stop your enemy from getting into a safety bubble while you wait for him to win the combat. Bikes use it to great advantage since they are extremely weak in combat.

 Weeheee wrote:
Hello, I have been brainstorming a custom chapter to start as a project soon and I have gotten pretty stuck on which codex to use. From a fluff standpoint I can be pretty flexible but I am right now willing to use the DA, BA, BT, or the vanilla codex. I have been leaning towards the good old vannila codex but my problem is I just don't see the point in doing the vanilla dex. I know that I get access to the Cannon and the Stormtalon but are the DA and BA dex's strictly just better now? Having assault available as troops is really cool and the DC are really cool (reasons for me to do BA) and having termis as troops seems a nice thing to do too (reason to do DA). I cannot do either of these with the vanilla dex, it just seems less flexible. Will someone please just sell me on the vanilla codex?

Space Marine Librarians can choose their own powers, at least one of which comes from rolling a 6 on a psychic power table. They are more expensive per model but they get to choose their psychic powers - this is big.

I don't know about Stormtalons but I know DA flyers suck. They might have some limited role as an expensive air support vehicle but they are nothing to get excited about - plus the models are $75 per - extremely overpriced, both in terms of points and dollars.

Also, SM has the best assault Terminators in the game at a time where Terminators are very strong in the assault. They can get the cheapest TH/SS Terminators, period. They benefit from Master-crafted if you buy the below HQ choice-

Vulkan - Vulkan is a reasonably costed Captain with good wargear choices and he makes your entire army's Thunder Hammers Master-crafted, meltas, multi-meltas, flamers, and heavy-flamers twin-linked. He's a big force multiplier. The problem is he's Salamanders, so if you don't want to paint Salamanders, well.

Sternguard have some very interesting aspects - they can be made scoring, they can be equipped with Combi-Melta or Plas. Meltas can be TL with Vulkan or they can be made scoring with Pedro. They are basically Veterans except they get custom ammo that gives them a choice among AP3 Bolters/ignore cover/poisoned 2+ each turn.

The rest of the codex is average to unremarkable. The real limitation is the Troops choices, but if each one is carrying a TL-Flamer and Multi-Melta through the Vulkan tax you could make a better argument for them.

 BryllCream wrote:
TFC is alright, combat tactics is over-rated. Oh wow, you got 3 free bolter shots against those guys who just assaulted you...congrats.

Oh wow, you're no longer locked in combat with the enemy, allowing your entire army to shoot that unit instead of it being hidden.

TedNugent is right (Except about Vulkan being a Captain. He isn't.) on almost all of his points. I personally run Vanilla Marines, and have had a lot of success with them since the conversion to 6th.

If you are looking for reasons to sell you on the Codex: Space Marines as opposed to one of the alternate marine codexes, I'd just point out the huge flexibility. You can run bikes, tanks, and half a dozen other things with the main book. It gives you lots of options, and as the game changes, you can change your game to adapt.

And personally, I dig on Combat Tactics.

Reasons to play vanilla marines?

Thunder Fire Cannons, they kill stuff dead
TH/SS termaintors, because they kill stuff dead and hang around to do so
Null Zone librarians, because invulnerable saves are overrated
Chaplin Cassius, a cheap toughness 6 chaplin with a combi flamer? Say yes
Conversion Beamers, small blast railguns are fun
Honor Guard, they have power weapons, billions of attacks, and a 2+ armor save
Ironclad Dreadnoughts, because av 13 in your face is always hard to kill
The ability to take marine bikes as troops
Combat tactics, because being tactical is more than just a combat strategy
Army changing special characters
Good scout troops
Drop pods that hold 2 more than anyone elses

 juraigamer wrote:
Reasons to play vanilla marines?

Thunder Fire Cannons, they kill stuff dead
TH/SS termaintors, because they kill stuff dead and hang around to do so
Null Zone librarians, because invulnerable saves are overrated
Chaplin Cassius, a cheap toughness 6 chaplin with a combi flamer? Say yes
Conversion Beamers, small blast railguns are fun
Honor Guard, they have power weapons, billions of attacks, and a 2+ armor save
Ironclad Dreadnoughts, because av 13 in your face is always hard to kill
The ability to take marine bikes as troops
Combat tactics, because being tactical is more than just a combat strategy
Army changing special characters
Good scout troops
Drop pods that hold 2 more than anyone elses

This just about sells it for me. I am actually thinking of painting up an Ultramarines army because even if they are smurfs I have always loved their color scheme.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
TFC is alright, combat tactics is over-rated. Oh wow, you got 3 free bolter shots against those guys who just assaulted you...congrats.

Oh wow, you're no longer locked in combat with the enemy, allowing your entire army to shoot that unit instead of it being hidden.

...and BTW, my remaining Tactical Marines who just escaped that combat will be Rallying 3", walking another 6", and holding this objective over HERE while the rest of my army shoots your assault unit dead. Too bad you didn't kill my scoring unit, eh?

Also, in addition to the list above, getting TH/SS terminators for counterassault for 5pts/model cheaper than BA is pretty sweet.

Very good points in this thread, combat tactics is indeed very good when using a drop pod army without vulkan or pedro (still works....) I usually decide to run away with my nice expensive sternguard unit after you have shot them a few times then next turn you get another volley of speical ammo to the face, or being stuck in combat with that toughness 6 dude, just run away and shot or keep on running!.

To the OP, why not paint them as your own chapter and use vanilla BA and DA, most of the units are the same but the flexability is use what you want is very good, gives a lot more bang for your buck and means you shouldnt get bored quick of using the same style army

Played well vanilla marines are an extremely powerful codex with ridiculous special characters written for 5th and versatile unit choices. A player at my FLGS is extremely competitive with his marines and reminds us it is still a great dex.

The flashiness of newer dexes has its draws but there is a level of flexibility and unit choices that the vanilla dex grants the best.

Personally, I find the biggest draw for the vanilla codex is the fact that it can do a little bit of everything, and has a bunch of special characters. Vulkan is a lot of fun, and will make anyone rethink charging a unit with a flamer in it, Telion giving a missile launcher scout BS6 is fun, bikes and Sternguard can be made into troops, etc.
The Thunderfire cannon is a beautiful death machine, and the ever under appreciated Legion of the Damned can be some fun.

And if you've never used an Honor Guard Deathstar unit before, you just have no idea.

I want to emphasize Null Zone.

This one power is a huge force multiplier when facing daemons, and can help to turn your game around.
Its also extremely useful when shooting units like wraiths that rely upon a good invuln save to get them by.

This one power is argueably one of the best psychic powers in the game.

 Weeheee wrote:
Hello, I have been brainstorming a custom chapter to start as a project soon and I have gotten pretty stuck on which codex to use. From a fluff standpoint I can be pretty flexible but I am right now willing to use the DA, BA, BT, or the vanilla codex. I have been leaning towards the good old vannila codex but my problem is I just don't see the point in doing the vanilla dex. I know that I get access to the Cannon and the Stormtalon but are the DA and BA dex's strictly just better now? Having assault available as troops is really cool and the DC are really cool (reasons for me to do BA) and having termis as troops seems a nice thing to do too (reason to do DA). I cannot do either of these with the vanilla dex, it just seems less flexible. Will someone please just sell me on the vanilla codex?

What is the fluff for your army? Can you summarize it in a few sentences?

You could always paint them in your own custom colours and then flick between codices as you wish. I also vote in favour of C:SM through DA do have some nice toys as well.

Yea paint your army how you want. I play my vanilla marines as Iron Hands, but you can custom paint your guys and play as any other SM book out there.

If you like the Blood Angels' Assault Marines, why not get a small detachment as allies? That way you can still play the models you like as well as get the shooting proficiency of Vanilla?

I recently switched from vanilla to Dark angels, and I must say I'm loving it. The DA have so many cool toys to use, and a lot of guys to take that don't feel like a "need to take" option.

plus, lighting up things with the Banner of Dakka and two prescience libbies is always fun!

Well if your group allows FW then the vanilla codex becomes extremely diverse. Just in the Badab War books there are about a dozen characters that can significantly alter your army composition.

I mean you can go army wide fnp, be able to take devs as elite and heavy, army wide fc and access to rage, an ic apothecary for fnp on whatever squad you want, and the list goes on. In another book there's even a raven guard captain that lets you take assault marines as troops,ad the icing on the cake is that it DOESN'T replace combat tactics.

I realize that many of these options aren't really all that uber-competitive but they are some great little curve balls that open up some fun alternative play styles.

CrowSplat wrote:


I mean you can go army wide fnp

Who grants this?

 Crimson wrote:

CrowSplat wrote:


I mean you can go army wide fnp

Who grants this?

Sanguinary priests. They have a 6" bubble (per priest) that gives FnP and FC. Also, you can take 3 per Elite slot.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:

Sanguinary priests. They have a 6" bubble (per priest) that gives FnP and FC. Also, you can take 3 per Elite slot.

I know that. Crow Splat was talking about Vanilla stuff in FW books.

This guy can replace all sergeants with Apothecaries


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Red_Scorpions/COMMANDER_CULLN_OF_THE_RED_SCORPIONS_.html