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So I have spent some time thinking over the new book and have been thinking up some plans in which to get a free Daemon Prince.

What I am thinking right now is:
- 3 units of 5 Chosen with shields and Champ
- Warshrine

During deployment place all units of chosen around the shrine. Then before the game begins the units get to roll 4d6 on the eye of the gods table. Hopefully, I get double 6's and end up with a free daemon prince. As the game goes along, keep activating the shrine with hopes that the other chaps ascend.

Also considering multiple Shrines and many units of 10 Marauders with Champ, to improve odds after the game starts.

May seem a bit cheesy, but I haven't seen anyone else post this.

Thoughts?

Oh but what's this? you toss a 1! SPAWN TIME!
nah srsly dont rely tooo much on deamon prince sure the idea sounds awesome but the chanse is little + the opoment gets killpoint if either get's spawned.

I wouldn't use the table to specifically farm Daemon Princes. I'd use it as a very nice buff to tons of characters each turn, with stat buffs being the focus.

If you snag a Daemon Prince out of it so much the better.


You really want your general to become a Prince because he keeps his gear.

@grey templar, probably not your general, since RAW the model is 'removed as a casualty', and replaced with a DP. does is say that the DP keeps inspiring presence et all, what about if you are playing a break point scenario? thats 2VP lost right there...

Whoah. He is indeed removed from play as a casualty. That can trigger all kinds of weirdness. You'll notice a number of the SC's don't roll on the table, they get an automatic result.

Just an arguement. 3 units of 5 chosen + war shrine equals about the cost of a DP. Right? So how is this free?

Especially since I doubt anyone is scared of 5 chosen in this edition

 Turalon wrote:

What I am thinking right now is:
- 3 units of 5 Chosen with shields and Champ
- Warshrine
...
multiple Shrines and many units of 10 Marauders with Champ

Cheesy? The first combo is 400+ free VP's, the latter probably more!

Moreover, a naked Daemon Prince is not that great. It cannot fly, wears no armour and has only his 5 standard attacks. It's not going to become a standard tactic not least because very few will hasten to buy 4, 5, 6 or more DP's.

phatonic wrote:
Oh but what's this? you toss a 1! SPAWN TIME!
nah srsly dont rely tooo much on deamon prince sure the idea sounds awesome but the chanse is little + the opoment gets killpoint if either get's spawned.

I don't think you can roll a 1 on the EotG table. Neither does an opponent get VP's for unit champions, only for whole units.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Turalon wrote:

What I am thinking right now is:
- 3 units of 5 Chosen with shields and Champ
- Warshrine
...
multiple Shrines and many units of 10 Marauders with Champ

Cheesy? The first combo is 400+ free VP's, the latter probably more!

Moreover, a naked Daemon Prince is not that great. It cannot fly, wears no armour and has only his 5 standard attacks. It's not going to become a standard tactic not least because very few will hasten to buy 4, 5, 6 or more DP's.

phatonic wrote:
Oh but what's this? you toss a 1! SPAWN TIME!


nah srsly dont rely tooo much on deamon prince sure the idea sounds awesome but the chanse is little + the opoment gets killpoint if either get's spawned.

I don't think you can roll a 1 on the EotG table. Neither does an opponent get VP's for unit champions, only for whole units.

i ment a Two on the 2d6 result number one ^^

Just pulling your legs, phatonic!

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Just pulling your legs, phatonic!

'


AGHHHH MY LEGGS! i will spawn new ones with the help of tzeentch, right tzeentch? n-no`? well god damnit... *dies*

A Third Eye is also quite useful! And just wait until you grow a nice strong baculum!

I faced that combo at a tourney on the weekend, but he had 3 units of 6 chosen, and warshrine.

1 daemon prince appeared. I went first and moved up I hadn't seen the army book until after the game) and he charged the now WS9, St 7 (with halbard) UNBREAKABLE!!! daemon prince into my unit of 38 orc big uns, BO warboss and orc great shaman. 1st combat phase - 1 dead champ, 2nd combat phase, dead warboss, 3rd phase with 4 chosen and his DP general - 18 dead orcs, next turn all that was left was the shaman lord and he fled, and got away.

The unbreakeable is the worst thing about them by far, remove that and they are good but not broken.

Watch them make the DoC version 5 LD and Stupid. Just as a kick in the daemon-jibblies.

The combo does work but I'm not convinced I want to have 430 points of my army sitting in a corner hoping to poop out a DaemonPrince.

The odds of any unit champion becoming a spawn are tiny (less than 1%) as you would have to roll 4 1's and even if he DOES spawn you just turned a unit champion into a Spawn gaining an Unbreakable multi-wound unit.

It's certainly not a given that you will get a DaemonPrince either, sure you're rolling 12 dice in total so you'll probably get a pair of sixes but the odds of those sixes being in the same set of four dice are fairly low (~13%).

What this is good at doing though is getting 4's, 5's, 9's and 10's to significantly buff the entire unit.

Chances of getting one or more princes with 3 units of chosen is something like 37%, mean, 2/3rds of the time, you get nothing. Then you're banking on a bound spell from a warshrine.

If you do get the prince, he doesn't show up naked, he's got chaos armor, and whatever gear your gave your champ.

Even if you do get a champ, the 4 remaining chosen are a liability. They will all too easily give up their points. I still think you are better off running larger blocks of chosen (like12 to 18). This way, when you don't roll the 12 (which will be more often than not) you still have a very good beat stick with some pretty nice buff choices.

Now, what happens to the general/BSB is turned into a prince, the daemon prince remains the general/BSB. Wizards keep their wizard levels. It's in the bottom part of the rules for becoming a daemon prince.

-Matt


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:


Now, what happens to the general/BSB is turned into a prince, the daemon prince remains the general/BSB. Wizards keep their wizard levels. It's in the bottom part of the rules for becoming a daemon prince.

-Matt

Daemon prince of tzeentch with blasted standard, sorry cannons today aint your day!

 kenshin620 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:


Now, what happens to the general/BSB is turned into a prince, the daemon prince remains the general/BSB. Wizards keep their wizard levels. It's in the bottom part of the rules for becoming a daemon prince.

-Matt

Daemon prince of tzeentch with blasted standard, sorry cannons today aint your day!

By the time you become a prince, odds are good you're already in combat or have already killed the cannons.

-Matt

Had someone try this in a 800 point game last weekend. The very first roll he gets IF on the bound and turns his Marauder Chieftain into a DP. It was kind of hilarious. Well, in the 'OH GOD MY FACE IT BURNS' way, and he proceeded to stampede through my army.

The problem is the next game he only got a handful of 'normal' buffs from it, and got pretty convincingly run down because his points were heavily invested in trying to get that and then suffered elsewhere. It seems so swingy that I'm not sure if it's something you can really rely on.

 Evertras wrote:
Had someone try this in a 800 point game last weekend. The very first roll he gets IF on the bound and turns his Marauder Chieftain into a DP. It was kind of hilarious. Well, in the 'OH GOD MY FACE IT BURNS' way, and he proceeded to stampede through my army.

The problem is the next game he only got a handful of 'normal' buffs from it, and got pretty convincingly run down because his points were heavily invested in trying to get that and then suffered elsewhere. It seems so swingy that I'm not sure if it's something you can really rely on.

Any tactic that relies on you rolling a double six before the first turn of the game is not reliable

Rob451 wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
Had someone try this in a 800 point game last weekend. The very first roll he gets IF on the bound and turns his Marauder Chieftain into a DP. It was kind of hilarious. Well, in the 'OH GOD MY FACE IT BURNS' way, and he proceeded to stampede through my army.

The problem is the next game he only got a handful of 'normal' buffs from it, and got pretty convincingly run down because his points were heavily invested in trying to get that and then suffered elsewhere. It seems so swingy that I'm not sure if it's something you can really rely on.

Any tactic that relies on you rolling a double six before the first turn of the game is not reliable

To be fair, if you're going for it hardcore you're rolling 3d6 and needing two of them to be sixes, and you're doing this multiple times a turn. I still wouldn't call it reliable, but it's not totally out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the Chosen for a moment and just focusing on regular units...

(edit) Ok, there, fixed math!

3d6 pick two gives you ~7.4% chance of getting at least two sixes. You get two rolls average per activation (d3). So for every activation, that's ~14% chance for a prince.

Assuming one activation per turn, the following is the approximate chance of getting at least one prince. Going to turn 4 as it likely won't matter after that, and there will probably be some wrenches in how you're activating it at that point anyway.

Turn --- Probability
1 --- 14%
2 --- 26.5%
3 --- 37%
4 --- 45%

Now if you get two shrines activating per turn in a bigger game (say you have 3, and average two successful activations per magic phase, possibly optimistic)...

Turn --- Probability
1 --- 26.5%
2 --- 45%
3 --- 60%
4 --- 71%

The caveat with probabilities like this is that this is looking at the game as a whole. Every turn you get a set probability, but in the game as a whole, for example, you're almost 50% likely to have a demon prince out by turn 2 if you've activated 4 times.

This also doesn't take into account making the leadership test. That will knock it down slightly, but not by much with some BSB shenanigans.

With the '6,6' result you can NEVER reroll it, for any reason. (Same as '1.1'), its an all-or-nothin deal...

Btw, upon re-reading, if your general/bsb become Mr Daemon prince, the new DP remains the general/bsb...

Yeah, but your opponent does get his points. So if he was worth 400 points because of his total cost they would get that(but not the general points AFAIK)

I was thinking more for breaking-point style scenarios, where the distinction is important. but yeah you are right on the money, you die, but you dont. Ish. Kinda...

 Evertras wrote:

(edit) Ok, there, fixed math!
3d6 pick two gives you ~7.4% chance of getting at least two sixes. You get two rolls average per activation (d3). So for every activation, that's ~14% chance for a prince.

Actually, it's 14% chance to take a leadership test. If failed, you become stubborn. If passed, you become a prince. It actually knocks the odds down to around 10% if Ld8.

-Matt