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I think that we obviously have to take into account the fact that bridges are taller to accommodate the Emperor's Angels of Death driving around in their Fiat 500s...

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

Even better:

I'd really like to see a squad of ~12 feet Space Marines trying to squeeze themselves into a Rhino built for ~6 feet humans.

I don't speak for anyone else here, but I do know Dan Abnett has written about 10 feet tall marines on more than one occasion and I'll be taking his word over that of anyone else around here, thanks all the same. The Black Library books are seriously vetted for background deviations and Abnett himself has described the rigors of adhering and having work studied for discrepancies deemed unacceptable.

You're kidding, right? Black Library novels aren't vetted for gak.
Here:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

I know Rhinos are small, but that could be part of the oversight prior to the strict vetting guidelines put on place with the growth of Black Library. I got to be on a BL round table at Adepticon last year and they talked about some of the changes in background.

 Lynata wrote:
Mr. Morden: True. If there's one thing I should have learned by now, it is that the actual source might say something different than claimed. I guess in this case I'm more willing to believe it because it's a larger number of people saying so (not just here but the 'net as a whole) and it kind of fits into my prejudice regarding non-GW sources and Marine hyperbole. Or hyperbole in general - the SM are just the ones "profiting" from it the most because the majority of BL novels is about them.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if anyone brings forward actual quotes tho, or at least more people posting info from memory.

d3m01iti0n wrote:12ft is a bit silly. I figure theyre 7ft unarmored, 8 ft armored.

Personally, I'm going with GW's measurements of 7-7.5 feet, in armour - see the lifesize drawing I linked in my first reply.
As Jes stated in the GW design podcast, that's large enough - it's not their height that makes them stand out, but the sheer bulk.

Indeed Just glanced through Heslreach again no chore as I do love that novel - and whilst there are many references to the Astartes as "Giants" by the non Marine POV characters _ Ican't see a measurement of height, but might have missed it. Around 8ft in armour seems about right to me - as you say they are tall AND Bulky but even scarier is that they are also fast with it.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters. Whilst I know all this 'Star Child' background is no longer so fashionable, this has never been retconned to my knowledge and again, as with Mr Abnett, it's another valid clue to the true height of Astartes.

IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters. Whilst I know all this 'Star Child' background is no longer so fashionable, this has never been retconned to my knowledge and again, as with Mr Abnett, it's another valid clue to the true height of Astartes.

IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

early versions of the grey knights then..

Psienesis wrote:You're kidding, right? Black Library novels aren't vetted for gak.
Here:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

I can kinda understand his impression. It probably depends on what level of "consistency control" an individual would wish for - there does seem to be a set of rules that have to be held sacrosanct in all outsourced fluff, but obviously that does not prevent a lot of contradictions as soon as a book goes into detail.

In some cases, it could also be the responsibility of an individual editor who is less acribic than his or her peers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

Well, the lifesize drawing was made for the Inquisitor range of miniatures, which were made completely from scratch and in a different scale. Maybe GW really just doesn't think Marines need to be bigger.

Although it could also be a decision based on how newly purchased models would fit in with an older army. With Orks, it is fairly easy to explain size differences ("dem boyz ovva here are meanier than da other uns', so dey's bigger!"), but having a small Ultramarine next to a big one might look odd.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters.

Where exactly? Every single GW Codex I've read so far said "7 feet". Unlike with the novel claims, this is something I need to see a source for until I believe it.

2 out of the 3 voices in my head are sure the average height is between 10 and 11 feet.

The third voice keeps reminding me that I'm hungry.

Off to lunch!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters. Whilst I know all this 'Star Child' background is no longer so fashionable, this has never been retconned to my knowledge and again, as with Mr Abnett, it's another valid clue to the true height of Astartes.

IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

Where does it say that - Looking in Slaves to Darkness and whilst it talks about the quality of equipment and few but best psykes can't see anythig about their actual dimensions? Is it STD or Lost and the Damned?

well based on my very scientific "knife blade math" 2.5m will be the height I will advocate for a astates average give or take 20-30 cm, and leave the super size marines for the propaganda vids.

 Lynata wrote:

In some cases, it could also be the responsibility of an individual editor who is less acribic than his or her peers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

Well, the lifesize drawing was made for the Inquisitor range of miniatures, which were made completely from scratch and in a different scale. Maybe GW really just doesn't think Marines need to be bigger.

Although it could also be a decision based on how newly purchased models would fit in with an older army. With Orks, it is fairly easy to explain size differences ("dem boyz ovva here are meanier than da other uns', so dey's bigger!"), but having a small Ultramarine next to a big one might look odd.

I believe this is the case, I think the mini designers have slowed the growth of marines for some time, trying to restrain the range from suddenly jumping in size and rendering entire armies defunct. If they could have, I think they'd have just changed the entire marine range to much larger minis else. Especially given the size of a catachan, some of whom are now a good deal larger than rogue trader marines or even fairly recent scout marines.

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters.

Where exactly? Every single GW Codex I've read so far said "7 feet". Unlike with the novel claims, this is something I need to see a source for until I believe it.

I remember reading it around the time I had recently purchase The Lost and The Damned, as it's a shared memory with rolling up independent daemons and converting a range of metal models over to them. Perhaps an old White Dwarf? I'm also remembering seeing that first boxed set of terminators around that time. Sorry, it was a good few years back!

Slaves to Darkness has all the Grey Knights referecnes - Lost and the damned is Sensei / Starchild.

It may be that you are thinking of the size of Terminator armour which is both bigger and bulkier??

I use my smaller lead Orks as flash gits, and they always roll very well, ancient minis are the luckiest, I miss all the wonderful RT beakies I use to have..ahh those were the days.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Slaves to Darkness has all the Grey Knights referecnes - Lost and the damned is Sensei / Starchild.

It may be that you are thinking of the size of Terminator armour which is both bigger and bulkier??

No, it was a quote from the time of LatD. It was specifically about Grey Knights and it was in relation to their size being shorter than a regular marine, in reference to Titan and her gravity.

Some novel perhaps?

I'm gonna check the Codex Imperialis and the 2E Marine 'dex later on, for I recall it had some fluff about Grey Knights, but I really cannot remember anything like this ... better to make sure I may not have just missed a line somewhere, though.

But technically, why would they be shorter? It's not like the Grey Knights are born on Titan. Which, by the way, has less gravity than Earth's own moon.
And even if this is for some reason different in 40k and Titan has a very high gravity, I would expect gravitational dampening fields in place to ease the stay of any visitors and garrisoned forces of the Ordo Malleus...
Okay, this wouldn't be the first strange thing I've read in 40k, but still.

Does official art also count towards this debate as I've seen marine heights comparable to very large orks. Now that would be very subject and also misleading at the same time but can those also be used for inference?

 Lynata wrote:
It's not like the Grey Knights are born on Titan. Which, by the way, has less gravity than Earth's own moon.

I guess the guy that first wrote that down thought Titan is a country on Saturn.

A... country.

On a gas giant?

That's rich.

As far as art goes.... remember, Space Marines have the air of the mythic about them in the Imperium. "Official Art" might be capturing that theme in depicting them as larger-than-life.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

Terrible gravitational force of 0.14 g? I hope Grey Knights never step their foot on Earth, they would be crushed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
2 out of the 3 voices in my head are sure the average height is between 10 and 11 feet.

Are you joking? I can't tell any more what is a joke and what is stuff from BL books...

Titan had some wierd stuff done to it to make the GK fortress monastary. It probably does have a very high gravitational field now because of some of that stuff.

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

terrible gravitational force of 0.14 g? I hope Grey Knights never step their foot on Earth, they would be crushed.

Did you just bring factual science into a conversation about the size of genetically engineered super knights in the 41st millennium who live in a secret base on a moon, one that can travel through time, that spend their time fighting demons, skeletal egyptian space robots and space elves?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

terrible gravitational force of 0.14 g? I hope Grey Knights never step their foot on Earth, they would be crushed.

Did you just bring factual science into a conversation about the size of genetically engineered super knights in the 41st millennium who live in a secret base on a moon, one that can travel through time, that spend their time fighting demons, skeletal egyptian space robots and space elves?

Don't forget the Soccer Hooligan Fungi!

Where does the 8+ feet height come from? I'm pretty sure they've always been around 7 feet. It clearly says 7 feet in the Chaos Space Marines Codex and this pic shows they are 7 feet, in armour.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6226/smjesgoodwininterpretat.jpg
Before anyone says "He's 8 feet tall!", look at his feet, it starts at 1 foot.

Edit: If they are bigger than 8 feet then they wouldn't work in urban terrain or space ships.

That's one of the biggest issues (or blessings, if you prefer artistic licence over continuity) in the 40k franchise - the many possible sources of fluff can and often do differ in details, at times wildly so.

I guess the body height of Space Marines is just one of the things where some authors like to "make it more epic" (true 'bigger equals better' thinking) for their readers, so much so that Jes Goodwin from GW joked about them "getting bigger with every book" in a GW Design Podcast.

As long as people are aware that book X just presents a possibility rather than fact and that it's up to them to pick what they like most, it's all good. Unfortunately, this is not the case very often.

 Gargantuan wrote:
Where does the 8+ feet height come from? I'm pretty sure they've always been around 7 feet. It clearly says 7 feet in the Chaos Space Marines Codex and this pic shows they are 7 feet, in armour.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6226/smjesgoodwininterpretat.jpg
Before anyone says "He's 8 feet tall!", look at his feet, it starts at 1 foot.

Edit: If they are bigger than 8 feet then they wouldn't work in urban terrain or space ships.

That was during the era of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, though. Didn't we start getting Space Marine "creep" after that?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Did you just bring factual science into a conversation about the size of genetically engineered super knights in the 41st millennium who live in a secret base on a moon, one that can travel through time, that spend their time fighting demons, skeletal egyptian space robots and space elves?

Yes. Unless there is bloody good reason I do not expect masses of celestial objects vary by orders of magnitude. I also expect sun to be hot.

 kronk wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
Where does the 8+ feet height come from? I'm pretty sure they've always been around 7 feet. It clearly says 7 feet in the Chaos Space Marines Codex and this pic shows they are 7 feet, in armour.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6226/smjesgoodwininterpretat.jpg
Before anyone says "He's 8 feet tall!", look at his feet, it starts at 1 foot.

Edit: If they are bigger than 8 feet then they wouldn't work in urban terrain or space ships.

That was during the era of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, though. Didn't we start getting Space Marine "creep" after that?

Newest Chaos Space Marine codex page 36, first paragraph.
"the Space Marines stand seven feet tall"

Titan did get heavily altered to make the fortress monestary, and it spent a bunch of time in the Warp. The mechanisims for Titan to make a Warp Jump are still in place. Maybe they create an artificially high gravitational field.

The bigger they are.....