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 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

That guy is standing on something, his proportions do not suggest that he is any larger than his peers. Unless he has freakishly long legs.

Also. He is a bit more than a head height above the others. Do you think space marines have over three feet tall heads? This is perfect example of spouting numbers randomly, without stopping to think what they actually mean.

Alright then, take a look at the marine in front of him. That marine is narrower at the shoulder than 'Ahriman'. He is larger and wider than the marine in the foreground. Or are you going to claim that he's just wider but stood on an orange box or that he's 'just a bit husky'...?!?

 Alfndrate wrote:


Why wouldn't he have a 3 foot tall head... mine is roughly 8 to 10 inches from chin to top... I'm 5 foot 9...

Because a person with similar proportions as you with 3 foot head would be about 21 feet tall...


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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Alright then, take a look at the marine in front of him. That marine is narrower at the shoulder than 'Ahriman'. He is larger and wider than the marine in the foreground.

No he isn't.



The green lines are of the same length.

Even though his shoulders are not wider, Ahriman might be a tiny bit bulkier, but he would still look bizarre if he was that much taller with those upper body proportions.

Unless of course...

You certain about that?

Robert Wadlow, world record holder for tallest man was just south of 9 feet tall, his father is 2 inches taller than I am. Take a look at this issue:


His face looks roughly double the size...

 Alfndrate wrote:
You certain about that?

Do the math. You're about 175cm tall and your head is about 25cm tall. 175/25=7. Your head is one seventh of your height (perfectly normal proportions.) Thus with a three foot tall head: 3x7=21.

His face looks roughly double the size...

His head is not even third larger than his father's. Three foot tall head is about three and half times the height of your head.

It has gone up and down at different stages. I have some old WDs from between 90 and 120 stashed away in a cupboard somewhere and many many more in my parents loft.

I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that at least half the stuff MGS is thinking of was not in W40k fluff at all, but in Epic articles in WD. Lost and the Damned was being previewed in WD around the same time as a lot of the Epic fluff, and there may have been a few bits and pieces in the LatD previews, plus I remember some articles about Terminator armour which specifically referred to Grey Knights, and that might have been where it had that bit of fluff about the Grey Knights came from.

I remember back when I was a kid finding a size comparison diagram of titans, knights and marines, and the sizes quoted for the titans meant that if you scaled down it meant that marines were about 12-14 feet tall, which was ludicrous and also contradicted the fluff, which was around 10ft.

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Alright then, take a look at the marine in front of him. That marine is narrower at the shoulder than 'Ahriman'. He is larger and wider than the marine in the foreground.

No he isn't.



The green lines are of the same length.

Even though his shoulders are not wider, Ahriman might be a tiny bit bulkier, but he would still look bizarre if he was that much taller with those upper body proportions.

So, ignoring the fact your green line on ahriman goes from a wide point on the right shoulder to the narrow tapering top of the left shoulder, you're telling me they are the same width when one is clearly a distance behind the other one and a good deal taller than the front marine?!?

If we take your line drawings to heart, then ahriman is actually a good measure narrower than the much closer regular sized marine.

That makes no sense at all! Are you being serious?!?!


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Ahriman's left shoulder is obscured by the angle and he's much wider and at least 3 feet taller than the little fellow in the front.


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You know what, I've been insulted, mocked and doubted by youngsters who seem to think because they read something by some Johnny come lately, hired in on the YTS to write some new fangled book and something in the last codex officially makes all marines tiny now, despite some of the best writers for the black library saying otherwise and having it approved by the GW high ups, well now if you want your genetically engineered supermen to be midgets, go ahead and have them.

7 feet indeed, there will be plenty of regular humans reared on deathworlds or warrior cultures in the Imperium who are bigger than that, what will they do if they recruit them? Shoehorn them into the power armor? Ask them to slouch so they don't make the other supersoldiers upset?

Balderdash!!!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It would be really useful and productive if you didn't resort to sarcasm and rudeness when debating this. If you're frustrated with 'certain posters' here, please just take the moral high ground.

Bringing Chaos Marines to the table wasn't productive, they are going to be all sorts of shapes and sizes.

It would be really useful and productive if you cited a source.

Point out the fluff that states that Chaos Marines are shorter than Space Marines.

Not that this matters, considering the page states that the Space Marines the Emperor created from the gene-seed of their Primarchs, aka normal Marines, are seven feet tall.


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 Alfndrate wrote:


Seems larger than that actually, but we all know he can change his size via the warpz

I guess Magnus also either has a lower body measuring a foot long, or walks around with his waist embedded into the earth?


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 kronk wrote:
Not a fair comparison. Per Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Battle of the Fang, Magnus can grow and shrink to colossal sizes.

I'm pretty sure he just manipulates the perceptions of others to change his size in their minds, or it could be some weird Primarch-inherent trait, when using their full power, they appear larger and more "epic" to mortals, since Leman Russ had the same effect.

Either way, The First Heretic confirms that Magnus is still the largest of the Primarchs, as does every other source.


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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

We can't see his legs, and he'd be disproportionately long of leg were that the case.

Also, four feet? Lol. That is over half the other Marines's heights.

Also note the other Thousand Sons are standing in water. And even if Ahriman were exceptionally tall for a Marine, he is the exception, not the rule.

Actually I was suggesting that the image shows that Magnus was at least 20 feet tall, probably closer to 35 or 40. Magically enhanced yes, but he's still a big mofo.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


So, ignoring the fact your green line on ahriman goes from a wide point on the right shoulder to the narrow tapering top of the left shoulder, you're telling me they are the same width when one is clearly a distance behind the other one and a good deal taller than the front marine?!?

The green line is longer than Ahriman on the widest part. It is just the width of the marine in the front dragged over Ahriman.

If we take your line drawings to heart, then ahriman is actually a good measure narrower than the much closer regular sized marine.

Yes, he is slightly narrower because he is farther back.

That makes no sense at all! Are you being serious?!?!

It makes perfect sense.

Ahriman's left shoulder is obscured by the angle and he's much wider and at least 3 feet taller than the little fellow in the front.

It is obscured less than the other guy's shoulder. And now it is only three feet. What happened to at least four?

In any case, I do not believe that the artist who made the picture gave the heights this much thought. He just placed Ahriman higher as he is an important character. I was just saying that the proportions of Ahriman's upper body do not suggest particularly gigantic size.

You know what, I've been insulted, mocked and doubted by youngsters who seem to think because they read something by some Johnny come lately, hired in on the YTS to write some new fangled book and something in the last codex officially makes all marines tiny now, despite some of the best writers for the black library saying otherwise and having it approved by the GW high ups, well now if you want your genetically engineered supermen to be midgets, go ahead and have them.

No one has insulted you. And why do you assume that people who disagree with you are youngsters? (And why would it matter?) If it is important to you, I started 40K during 2e, and have made some effort to familiarise myself with the older stuff. Furthermore, the seven feet figure have been pretty consistent in the main GW publications over the years. I am also pretty sure that most midgets are somewhat shorter than seven feet. Of course if you want your marines to be larger than Sentinels and carry heavy weapon sized bolters you are perfectly free to think that. Personally I find that kind of stuff silly.

7 feet indeed, there will be plenty of regular humans reared on deathworlds or warrior cultures in the Imperium who are bigger than that, what will they do if they recruit them? Shoehorn them into the power armor? Ask them to slouch so they don't make the other supersoldiers upset?

Why you assume that death worlders are huge? I am sure some might be seven feet tall, but there is no reason to think that this would be common. And there are some exceptionally large Marines such as Arjack Rockfist, so people who would grow really tall will become such exceptinally large marines. Also, it is possible that the Emperor's Finest do not have such fragile egos that they become upset if some odd person somewhere is taller than them.

Crimson wrote:Why you assume that death worlders are huge? I am sure some might be seven feet tall, but there is no reason to think that this would be common.

He has a point in that the Imperium is so huge and mutation/evolution of the native population so common that you'd probably find some humans remotely approaching Astartes physiology - but then again, who says they'd get recruited? If the end result truly ends up being a 10-12 feet monstrosity, then it doesn't fit into any of the standard template vehicles and is at a tactical disadvantage when faced with surroundings built for normal humans. In spite of the popular schpiel of certain Black Library authors, I do not believe that bigger is always better, so such a Chapter would simply not be created as the resources are better spent for the sort of Space Marines that can perform just as well as their battle brothers from other Chapters.

Of course that's just my interpretation, and with how the 40k franchise works I'd be willing to admit that the whole idea makes a neat reasoning behind anyone who wants to have his "Truescale" Space Marines to be bigger than GW's norm. At least it would be better than just dropping the studio fluff entirely, but that is just my personal preference speaking.

Its probably the result of the Deathworlders being "inspired" by the Harry Harrison Deathworld novels - where the inhabitants are noticable larger than mainstream humans?

@ MeanGreenStompa: Have to agree with Crimson - I have tried to be as reasonable as possible and merely asked for actual references so we could discuss them and their context - I started 40K with Rogue Trader (1st Ed) which I have still have and most things published since - sad but true .

Mr Morden wrote:Its probably the result of the Deathworlders being "inspired" by the Harry Harrison Deathworld novels - where the inhabitants are noticable larger than mainstream humans?

I don't even know those. But when I think of "Death World", then the first that comes to mind is ... Catachans!

Of course Death World can mean just about anything, including acid rain and a population of midgets living underground. In the end ... look at Ratlings and Ogryn, and one can see the possible range for human "evolution".

Indeed but if you read the books I would say they are definately inspirational for Catachan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathworld

Everything on the planet is predatory, and capable of killing an unwary human instantly. All large animals are strong enough to destroy small vehicles. All small animals have neurotoxic venom. All plants are carnivorous, even if only by default—their victims fertilize their soil. All microorganisms consume insufficiently protected tissue as quickly as acids. On top of this, all the aforementioned life evolves so quickly that even Kerk and his Pyrran crew have to be retrained upon their return from Cassylia in order to survive.

Because of this harsh environment, the settlers are engaged in a ceaseless struggle to survive, which—despite generations of acclimation and a training regime harsher than that of ancient Spartans—they are losing. Their numbers are less than when the planet was first colonized, and they are restricted to a single settlement. The world's very name is a reference to Pyrrhic victory, a success that comes at devastating cost to the victor

Damn. Sounds like Catachan, alright.

Why is it in the novels Logan is depicted as being a large hulk of a man by space wolf terms, yet if you stick his mini next to a standard space wolf terminator, you can see everything about him is smaller? (Including the shoulder pads).

Good ol' GW scale antics at work..

Jaeger wulf wrote:
Why is it in the novels Logan is depicted as being a large hulk of a man by space wolf terms, yet if you stick his mini next to a standard space wolf terminator, you can see everything about him is smaller? (Including the shoulder pads).

Good ol' GW scale antics at work..

How old is the model? It is probably similar size as the old terminators.

Some of those marines in the picture may have bionicially replaced legs, legs that are outfitted for only really tall regular humans, thus making themselves appear shorter than the much larger, eleven foot Ahrihman.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

You know what, I've been insulted, mocked and doubted by youngsters who seem to think because they read something by some Johnny come lately, hired in on the YTS to write some new fangled book and something in the last codex officially makes all marines tiny now, despite some of the best writers for the black library saying otherwise and having it approved by the GW high ups, well now if you want your genetically engineered supermen to be midgets, go ahead and have them.

7 feet indeed, there will be plenty of regular humans reared on deathworlds or warrior cultures in the Imperium who are bigger than that, what will they do if they recruit them? Shoehorn them into the power armor? Ask them to slouch so they don't make the other supersoldiers upset?

Balderdash!!!

I've been in the 40K hobby for... 25 years now? Almost 30? Space Marines have always been 7 to 8 feet tall, on average, with some being a bit shorter (6'6" or so) and some few being over 8 feet. We have had life-size plastic and foam rubber statues of Space Marines at cons, tournaments and other GW events that show them being between 7 and 8 feet tall. We have artwork released by GW showing them at the 8 foot mark (with the Marine's boots being at the 1 foot mark). While it's not unimaginable that some of these Feral Worlders might, after all the genetic implants and such, get to 9 or 10 feet in height, that's not an "average" of the Space Marines.

Black Library books aren't "approved" by the GW higher-ups against any sort of set-in-stone canon. If Dan Abnett wants to make his Space Marines of the Ixaniad Sector have pinky fingers "the size and shape of an Arbiter's truncheon", and call their Chapter Master the Primarch, that's his prerogative. He's under no requirement or compulsion to make his vision of the 40K setting fit with anyone else's. All a BL book has to do, really, is fit within the gist of the 40K setting, have the right grim-dark feel (even if it is taking it as satire, as the Ciaphas Cain series does) and be a (arguably) good, pulpy read.

Don't forget that many codices are written to be Imperium propaganda and therefore could be stretched in truths. Making space marines smaller than their natural height only makes their deeds sound all the more heroic. Alternatively, this could be propaganda spread by Alpha Legionnaires as a way to diminish in the eyes of Imperial citizens their stalwart champions, lowering their morale.

We will never know as GW does not have a concrete and discernable way they approach their lore. Nearly thirty years later, they still have not even named the final two legions, as if forgetting they had to make twenty and stopped at eighteen.

 WarOne wrote:
Don't forget that many codices are written to be Imperium propaganda and therefore could be stretched in truths. Making space marines smaller than their natural height only makes their deeds sound all the more heroic.

Yes... the texts where it says that they're seven feet tall and their armour is not impervious to lasguns it propaganda and stories where they're ten feet tall invincible giants is the true account. Sounds likely...

To each his own, but I really don't get this fascination with supersized marines.

 Crimson wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
Don't forget that many codices are written to be Imperium propaganda and therefore could be stretched in truths. Making space marines smaller than their natural height only makes their deeds sound all the more heroic.

Yes... the texts where it says that they're seven feet tall and their armour is not impervious to lasguns it propaganda and stories where they're ten feet tall invincible giants is the true account. Sounds likely...

To each his own, but I really don't get this fascination with supersized marines.

Are you implying this is a massive hoax orchestrated by DCMs to manipulate the rest of the forums to believe Space Marines are actually over ten feet tall rather than a more believable height of fifteen feet?

I most certainly won't go into the ten thousand posts on the DCM forums of Alpharius telling us he has inside knowledge of GWs actaul height for the average space marine nor the fact that DCMs get exclusive news from the company direct that the SM line of 28mm will be replaced by 40mm models and through lore changes proportionately increase the smaller heights accordingly. Oh and this is slated for 2016.

Of course since all of this is heresay, I would ignore any of the rationales mentioned above and just accept the minimal height of ten feet marines as fact than the more widely spread and far less believable eight feet some fringers claim to believe.

Exactly that!

Except 40mm is still only eight feet... They need to make the models two inches tall for ten feet!

I know Grey Knights are slightly shorter due to the huge gravity of titan.

 Crimson wrote:
Exactly that!

Except 40mm is still only eight feet... They need to make the models two inches tall for ten feet!

Except that all other models move to an 18mm base size reduction....

SentientFrog wrote:
I know Grey Knights are slightly shorter due to the huge gravity of titan.

Correct...they're about ten feet wide.

... and that, boys and girls, is what really happened to the Squats.

Can we please stop with the stupid "make space marines taller" meme now?

They are generally 7-8 ft tall.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Can we please stop with the stupid "make space marines taller" meme now?

They are generally 7-8 ft tall.

I agree. 7-8 seems right. Any taller would be impractical as they'd have trouble going through a lot of doors. Even in the imperium.

To be fair, the imperium builds doors for the sole purpose of having titans walk through them.

 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, the imperium builds doors for the sole purpose of having titans walk through them.

All doors in the imperium are titan sized?

 Skarwael wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, the imperium builds doors for the sole purpose of having titans walk through them.

All doors in the imperium are titan sized?

No.

All doors in the Imperium have a machine spirit proclaiming the might of the Emperor every time you get in a 3 meter radius of them.