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Forgeworld expansions, the units stamped for use in 40k in Imperial Armour and Apocalypse, are a big topic of discussion here on Dakka Dakka and on other forums. Certain major tournaments, such as AdeptiCon, are allowing them. While much has been written as to whether or not this will be good for 40k, I'm going to simply take a look at some of the units allowed from Forgeworld. Some of them are harmless, but some of them could be incredibly destructive to the tournament scene: I'm throwing some information out here to raise the question, for debate, of whether or not Forge World is balanced, and whether or not it actually improves the game for Xenos players, as is alleged. (Xenos other than Necrons and maybe Orks are struggling in this meta, I'm not here to dispute that, since it's common knowledge)

The following link has the list of Forgeworld units allowed in AdeptiCon under "AdeptiCon 2013 Allowable Imperial Armour and Apocalypse Units ":
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458283.page
(note that I will be discussing units designed by Forgeworld for regular 40k games, not Super-Heavies or Gargantuan Creatures).

One thing that bears mention right away is that Eldar and Tau do get Flyers. Some of them are quite good: Eldar Nightwing gets a 2+ cover save the turn it chooses to evade. This creates a huge bonus for these two struggling Xenos armies in the meta.

But Imperial armies get better too: while Xenos armies get basic Flyers, Imperial armies get more Flyers, and all the anti-air they'd ever need, and then some, and then some extra cheese on top to boot:

Sabre Gun Platform: Imperial Guard already have the most AA and amazingly cheap Flyers, but why stop there? It's unfair to those poor Guard players to only get autocannons on the ground, to need aircraft of their own to get twin-linked skyfire lascannons! So let's allow them to hide those lascannons in an enormous, Ld10 stubborn objective-holding infantry blob! And let's give them Interceptor too, because it's not fair either to limit them to an anti-air role, and what if the unit arriving from reserve gets to shoot once at the guardsmen before getting shot down? We can't have that, can we?

Hyperios Turret: This is available to most Space Marine chapters. It's crewless artillery, an immobile "Fast" Attack choice, taken in groups of 1-4. Each one costs as much as a Devastator, maybe a wee bit more or less depending on codex. It can't fight back in melee, but is much, much harder to kill by anything but dedicated anti-tank guns. It can skyfire, ground fire and intercept. It is BS3, but is TL, and so is on average more accurate than a Devastator. What does it do? It Skyfires, or fires normally, Krak Missiles, ignoring Jink saves. 35 points per model.

With stuff like this, Imperial gunlines no longer have to choose between anti-air and anti-ground. They can do both, and do it brutally. With such powerful ground-to-air, for so cheap, they can hold their gunline with integrity while making it all the more resilient against air. Meanwhile, Tau and Eldar only begin to get their basic anti-air tools.

And that's not to even bring up the other Xenos races. Necrons get virtually nothing from Forge World. And my own Tyranids? They get a Stone Crusher Carnifex(classic Godfex, but no delivery system or ranged attack in a shooty meta, so Tyrannofex does the job better), Malanthropes(Venomthropes better in melee but no cover save aura, a command squad type HQ, melee oriented), and Meiotic Spores(same problems as regular Spore Mines, just on a bigger scale). We have nothing to deal with these new units, and "hurr no allies" still applies all the while. The Hyperios Turret will destroy Flying Hive Tyrants. Destroy them. Utterly. A squad of them will most likely put two wounds on one a turn, before Grounding Tests, while at the same time being able to divert their fire and kill other Monstrous Creatures on the ground. Iron Arm can never be counted on, only Feel No Pain because Tervigons. The Sabre Gun Platform is also capable of the same. Literally every army can become like Grey Knights and Dark Eldar, capable of beating almost all competitive Tyranid lists almost automatically just by running a competitive build.

But while we're on the topic of non-Flyer related units, lets see what Imperial Armies also get:

Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!

Land Raider Achilles: With 6 capacity, it won't carry Terminators, but it can hold a cheap Power Weapon Wolf Guard/Death Company squad. But why only 6 capacity? To make room for the Thunderfire Cannon. Oh, and it has immunity to Lance and Melta, and any penetrating hits that still somehow get through get -1 to the damage chart. So what did I hear about Forgeworld "helping" Eldar? They can literally only fight this thing by charging it with a Wraithlord or with Swooping Hawks, or by getting close to it with Wraithguard. Their normal anti-tank strategies, their lifeline in 6th, are useless against it, while the Thunderfire Cannon makes mincemeat of their dudes. And how is Dark Eldar supposed to deal with this thing? Use a Talos?

Lucius Drop Pod: Furioso Dread with dual Blood Talons, anywhere, anytime. Bye bye, my best squad

All this stuff is legal, in all games, for this year's Adepticon. Eldar and Tau might have a tiny sliver of hope with their new Flyers, but Forge World will just make Imperial armies better, and will just throw off the disparity in power level between codices even further. Not everyone will play Forgeworld, but someone with more disposable income with you will, and will bring a LR Achilles full of Death Company, Furioso's in Lucius pods, and a huge Hyperios turret gunline of 12x 35 pt T6 krak missile skyfire goodness. Or perhaps even worse.

So while I like the idea of Forge World being legal, I wonder if it will just further inflame the problems with 40k. Especially the problems that Eldar and Tyranids have. Am I being too pessimistic? What is the solution to these concerns I've brought up? I'd like to ask you guys, is jumping on the Forge World bandwagon a good idea right now? Should Forge World be allowed, but with a list of banned units that extends beyond the obvious "no Super-Heavies in normal scale games"? What are your thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your first thought may be to declare this post TL;DR, I'm sorry for the length, don't read it all if you don't want to, just share your thoughts please.

40k needs a real tournament ruleset. Anything else is just bandaids on a dam. Until that happens you're still going to have massive problems with balance.

Agreed. Let's keep FW for narrative play as intended.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
40k needs a real tournament ruleset. Anything else is just bandaids on a dam. Until that happens you're still going to have massive problems with balance.

I agree with you on that. It should be Games Workshop's responsibility, though, yet every set of rules they release, despite intending to be internally congruent, always causes weird stuff to become overpowered. For every balanced, well thought out codex that gets released(Dark Eldar, Dark Angels), something ridiculously powerful gets released too(Space Wolves, Grey Knights).

And then there's the Flyer rules and Ally rules, which have caused huge upheavals in how competitive play works, yet it's eight months into 6th and lots of armies still feel weird and overall underpowered playing in this new edition.

Tournaments could use Forgeworld, but possibly only the cool fluffy units, and the stuff that is able to fix glaring weaknesses in armies without causing those armies to suddenly become overpowered themselves. I already know of one tournament in my area that is using Forge World rules, but with a banlist.

 Larmsword wrote:


Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!

Lucius Drop Pod: Furioso Dread with dual Blood Talons, anywhere, anytime. Bye bye, my best squad

The Hades Breaching Drill was nerfed pretty hard in last year's release of Imperial Armor 1, Second edition. It's worse than a Mawloc, now.

Blood Angels can't take the Lucius Drop Pod per Imperial Armor: Apocalypse Second edition.

 kronk wrote:

 Larmsword wrote:


Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!

Lucius Drop Pod: Furioso Dread with dual Blood Talons, anywhere, anytime. Bye bye, my best squad

The Hades Breaching Drill was nerfed pretty hard in last year's release of Imperial Armor 1, Second edition. It's worse than a Mawloc, now.

Blood Angels can't take the Lucius Drop Pod per Imperial Armor: Apocalypse Second edition.

Well that's a relief, then. I looked it up, you're right, Blood Angels can't take the Lucius Drop Pod. Thanks for the info.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't still broken. And the fact that the Land Raider Achilles could single handedly put Eldar out of the meta, and the Hyperios Air Defence Battery could do the same to Tyranids, still makes me wonder if Forge World is such a good idea.

The Eldar have some very good FW models, especially in the IA: Aeronautica. Their main complaint should be their horribly old Codex from GW.

Tyranids get a raw deal when it comes to Forge World. Not allowing Forge World just because a Tyranid player is complaining is the tail wagging the dog, in my opinion.

See the links in my signature for some excellent discussion on Forge World in tournaments, though.

 Larmsword wrote:
Forgeworld expansions, the units stamped for use in 40k in Imperial Armour and Apocalypse, are a big topic of discussion here on Dakka Dakka and on other forums. Certain major tournaments, such as AdeptiCon, are allowing them. While much has been written as to whether or not this will be good for 40k, I'm going to simply take a look at some of the units allowed from Forgeworld. Some of them are harmless, but some of them could be incredibly destructive to the tournament scene: I'm throwing some information out here to raise the question, for debate, of whether or not Forge World is balanced, and whether or not it actually improves the game for Xenos players, as is alleged. (Xenos other than Necrons and maybe Orks are struggling in this meta, I'm not here to dispute that, since it's common knowledge)

The basic premise of your post seems to come from a broken place...that IA units are supposed to 'balance' the inherently imbalanced. This is a flawed premise that can never be true because GW, let alone Forgeworld, care about tournament balance.

Regardless of whether a tournament allows or bans Imperial Armor rules, the codexes are imbalanced. The reason a tournament organizer should consider allowing Imperial Armor is not because it balances or imbalances the game (that is GW and FW's problem), but rather because Imperial Armor is an expansion for 40K, so if the organizers want to allow players to utilize the models and rules for this expansion then there is no reason they shouldn't be able to.

Adepticon, for example, disallows FW in the Championships (the main single-player tournament) but allows them in limited forms in most of its other tournaments. Therefore, players have the choice of the style of tournament they want to play in.

As for your comment regarding particular units I will just say again: Are there really good IA units? Of course. There are also really fantastic units in each codex as well. As I always say, if those units were in a IA book, people would FLIP out and go insane, but because they're in the basic codexes people have to figure out how to deal with them, end of story.

So if the overall effect of IA is (debatably) to make Imperial Armies stronger, then so what? That is GW and FW's issue. The fact is, they make the game and they make the expansions for USE. Complaining about what effect use of those expansions have is frankly as pointless as arguing about whether a particular codex is overpowered and should be banned from tournaments as well.


Finally, I'm not really going to get into debunking all of your commentary regarding certain units, but I do really have point out the flaws in two of your assessments:

Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!

Land Raider Achilles: With 6 capacity, it won't carry Terminators, but it can hold a cheap Power Weapon Wolf Guard/Death Company squad. But why only 6 capacity? To make room for the Thunderfire Cannon. Oh, and it has immunity to Lance and Melta, and any penetrating hits that still somehow get through get -1 to the damage chart. So what did I hear about Forgeworld "helping" Eldar? They can literally only fight this thing by charging it with a Wraithlord or with Swooping Hawks, or by getting close to it with Wraithguard. Their normal anti-tank strategies, their lifeline in 6th, are useless against it, while the Thunderfire Cannon makes mincemeat of their dudes. And how is Dark Eldar supposed to deal with this thing? Use a Talos?

The Hades has been incredibly nerfed in its current form to the point of being pretty much a joke.

The Land Raider Achillies is way too many points and incredibly vulnerable now that Glances can kill it. Yes, DE players would struggle mightily to kill it, but any army taking an Achillies is not going to get very far in any tournament. It is just WAY too many points on something that can get obliterated quite quickly by quite a few armies.

Thanks for the links. I'll read some more on it.

I understand what you mean about the Eldar, they are a lot better with Forge World Flyers, and the idea of Shadow Spectres(Warp Spiders with pseudo-missile launchers that can be combined into a beam of death) would be too cool to pass up for me, if I had the money to collect an Eldar army.

I still just don't know though.

 Larmsword wrote:
Forgeworld expansions, the units stamped for use in 40k in Imperial Armour and Apocalypse, are a big topic of discussion here on Dakka Dakka and on other forums. Certain major tournaments, such as AdeptiCon, are allowing them. While much has been written as to whether or not this will be good for 40k, I'm going to simply take a look at some of the units allowed from Forgeworld. Some of them are harmless, but some of them could be incredibly destructive to the tournament scene: I'm throwing some information out here to raise the question, for debate, of whether or not Forge World is balanced, and whether or not it actually improves the game for Xenos players, as is alleged. (Xenos other than Necrons and maybe Orks are struggling in this meta, I'm not here to dispute that, since it's common knowledge)

The following link has the list of Forgeworld units allowed in AdeptiCon under "AdeptiCon 2013 Allowable Imperial Armour and Apocalypse Units ":
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458283.page
(note that I will be discussing units designed by Forgeworld for regular 40k games, not Super-Heavies or Gargantuan Creatures).

...clip...

All this stuff is legal, in all games, for this year's Adepticon. Eldar and Tau might have a tiny sliver of hope with their new Flyers, but Forge World will just make Imperial armies better, and will just throw off the disparity in power level between codices even further. Not everyone will play Forgeworld, but someone with more disposable income with you will, and will bring a LR Achilles full of Death Company, Furioso's in Lucius pods, and a huge Hyperios turret gunline of 12x 35 pt T6 krak missile skyfire goodness. Or perhaps even worse.

Emphasis mine. These units are not allowed in all 40K events at AdeptiCon - and even when they are, they are often restricted. Per the document you are referencing and the event rules, only the 40K Team Tournament, 40K Gladiator, 40K Friendly and the Zone Mortalis events allow Forge World Units.

The 40K Gladiator is going on 11 years of allowing Forge World - it always has and it always will. Balance isn't suppose to exist in this event.
The 40K Friendly has about as much to do with competitive tournament 40K as I do with choosing the next pope.
The Zone Mortalis events are narrative events using the rules from the Horus Heresy Betrayal book from from Forge World.

The only event that Forge World has an impact on in the sense you are speaking of is the 40K Team Tournament, which has the following rule:

Forge World/Imperial Armour units are allowed in the Warhammer 40K Team Tournament, however due to the scarce nature of these units; each unit is considered unique (0-1) and may only be taken once per Team.

This rule also applies to the 40K Friendly and the Zone Mortalis events. Only the 40K Gladiator allows you to take multiple units of the same type.

Forge World units are not allowed in the 40K Championships, the Warzone Tournament, Horus Heresy - Betrayal or the Combat Patrol events.

 Larmsword wrote:
Thanks for the links. I'll read some more on it.

I understand what you mean about the Eldar, they are a lot better with Forge World Flyers, and the idea of Shadow Spectres(Warp Spiders with pseudo-missile launchers that can be combined into a beam of death) would be too cool to pass up for me, if I had the money to collect an Eldar army.

I still just don't know though.

I'm not saying your complaint about FW is invalid. Not everyone likes to play with FW. Also, certain armies don't get FW support. However, GW Prime doesn't support Sisters of Battle at all.

Also, even without Tyranid FW support, I'd have serious trouble fighting a psycher-heavy tyranid army as a Space Marine player, even with my space marine FW stuff.

 Matthias wrote:

 Larmsword wrote:
Forgeworld expansions, the units stamped for use in 40k in Imperial Armour and Apocalypse, are a big topic of discussion here on Dakka Dakka and on other forums. Certain major tournaments, such as AdeptiCon, are allowing them. While much has been written as to whether or not this will be good for 40k, I'm going to simply take a look at some of the units allowed from Forgeworld. Some of them are harmless, but some of them could be incredibly destructive to the tournament scene: I'm throwing some information out here to raise the question, for debate, of whether or not Forge World is balanced, and whether or not it actually improves the game for Xenos players, as is alleged. (Xenos other than Necrons and maybe Orks are struggling in this meta, I'm not here to dispute that, since it's common knowledge)

The following link has the list of Forgeworld units allowed in AdeptiCon under "AdeptiCon 2013 Allowable Imperial Armour and Apocalypse Units ":
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458283.page
(note that I will be discussing units designed by Forgeworld for regular 40k games, not Super-Heavies or Gargantuan Creatures).

...clip...

All this stuff is legal, in all games, for this year's Adepticon. Eldar and Tau might have a tiny sliver of hope with their new Flyers, but Forge World will just make Imperial armies better, and will just throw off the disparity in power level between codices even further. Not everyone will play Forgeworld, but someone with more disposable income with you will, and will bring a LR Achilles full of Death Company, Furioso's in Lucius pods, and a huge Hyperios turret gunline of 12x 35 pt T6 krak missile skyfire goodness. Or perhaps even worse.

Emphasis mine. These units are not allowed in all 40K events at AdeptiCon - and even when they are, they are often restricted. Per the document you are referencing and the event rules, only the 40K Team Tournament, 40K Gladiator, 40K Friendly and the Zone Mortalis events allow Forge World Units.

The 40K Gladiator is going on 11 years of allowing Forge World - it always has and it always will. Balance isn't suppose to exist in this event.
The 40K Friendly has about as much to do with competitive tournament 40K as I do with choosing the next pope.
The Zone Mortalis events are narrative events using the rules from the Horus Heresy Betrayal book from from Forge World.

The only event that Forge World has an impact on in the sense you are speaking of is the 40K Team Tournament, which has the following rule:

Forge World/Imperial Armour units are allowed in the Warhammer 40K Team Tournament, however due to the scarce nature of these units; each unit is considered unique (0-1) and may only be taken once per Team.

This rule also applies to the 40K Friendly and the Zone Mortalis events. Only the 40K Gladiator allows you to take multiple units of the same type.

Forge World units are not allowed in the 40K Championships, the Warzone Tournament, Horus Heresy - Betrayal or the Combat Patrol events.

Alright, I must hav e misunderstood the different Adepticon categories. I guess the problem is, the game isn't balanced with Forge World, but it isn't balanced without it either. Either way, it's Xenos armies that suffer due to their old/poorly written codices. It would make sense to allow Forge World in friendly tournaments, but to restrict it in competitive either through banlists or through 0-1s. Maybe I shouldn't be as worried about this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Larmsword wrote:
Thanks for the links. I'll read some more on it.

I understand what you mean about the Eldar, they are a lot better with Forge World Flyers, and the idea of Shadow Spectres(Warp Spiders with pseudo-missile launchers that can be combined into a beam of death) would be too cool to pass up for me, if I had the money to collect an Eldar army.

I still just don't know though.

I'm not saying your complaint about FW is invalid. Not everyone likes to play with FW. Also, certain armies don't get FW support. However, GW Prime doesn't support Sisters of Battle at all.

Also, even without FW, I'd have serious trouble fighting a psycher-heavy tyranid army as a Space Marine player, even with FW.

Well, it's a favorable matchup for Tyranids, but it wouldn't be that way necessarily if every Space Marine or Space Marine variant list player at the tournament was using Hyperios turrets. But I understand what you mean, FW has a lot of cool stuff, and I think it's great if people go competitive with it. It just seems like a lot of events are using it, and so I'm concerned that most TO's might eventually decide to allow it without restrictions just as a general habit. The more I think about it, though, the more unlikely that seems, especially given how the game is already unbalanced right now.

 Larmsword wrote:

Sabre Gun Platform: Imperial Guard already have the most AA and amazingly cheap Flyers, but why stop there? It's unfair to those poor Guard players to only get autocannons on the ground, to need aircraft of their own to get twin-linked skyfire lascannons! So let's allow them to hide those lascannons in an enormous, Ld10 stubborn objective-holding infantry blob! And let's give them Interceptor too, because it's not fair either to limit them to an anti-air role, and what if the unit arriving from reserve gets to shoot once at the guardsmen before getting shot down? We can't have that, can we?

As you said, they already have the best AA. And let's not fool ourselves, the LD 10 and Stubborn isn't the Sabre's fault, and costs considerably more points than the sabre batteries themselves. So you're giving the best AA army more AA. Wooo!

 Larmsword wrote:

Hyperios Turret: This is available to most Space Marine chapters. It's crewless artillery, an immobile "Fast" Attack choice, taken in groups of 1-4. Each one costs as much as a Devastator, maybe a wee bit more or less depending on codex. It can't fight back in melee, but is much, much harder to kill by anything but dedicated anti-tank guns. It can skyfire, ground fire and intercept. It is BS3, but is TL, and so is on average more accurate than a Devastator. What does it do? It Skyfires, or fires normally, Krak Missiles, ignoring Jink saves. 35 points per model.

ERMAGHERD SM get AA! So with these new Tau and Eldar fliers, are the Space Marines supposed to get feth all to deal with them? It's not like the Hyperios is indestructible, or really anything but a minor annoyance. Unless Krak Missiles are suddenly the bees knees after being considered the most useless heavy weapon in 6th for so long.

 Larmsword wrote:

With stuff like this, Imperial gunlines no longer have to choose between anti-air and anti-ground. They can do both, and do it brutally. With such powerful ground-to-air, for so cheap, they can hold their gunline with integrity while making it all the more resilient against air. Meanwhile, Tau and Eldar only begin to get their basic anti-air tools.

I think you're overreacting to the prevalence and need of AA. Also, Tau and Eldar get AA with interceptor too, which not only gives them any anti-air at all, but also places it firmly within the same sphere as the Sabre and way way ahead of the Hydra.

 Larmsword wrote:

And that's not to even bring up the other Xenos races. Necrons get virtually nothing from Forge World.

Do they need anything from Forge World?

 Larmsword wrote:

And my own Tyranids? They get a Stone Crusher Carnifex(classic Godfex, but no delivery system or ranged attack in a shooty meta, so Tyrannofex does the job better), Malanthropes(Venomthropes better in melee but no cover save aura, a command squad type HQ, melee oriented), and Meiotic Spores(same problems as regular Spore Mines, just on a bigger scale). We have nothing to deal with these new units, and "hurr no allies" still applies all the while.

So far, more of a beef with GW for no Allies, moreso than any of this being Forge World's fault.

 Larmsword wrote:

The Hyperios Turret will destroy Flying Hive Tyrants. Destroy them. Utterly. A squad of them will most likely put two wounds on one a turn, before Grounding Tests, while at the same time being able to divert their fire and kill other Monstrous Creatures on the ground.

But it can't do both at once, and if it isn't killing one it's horribly vulnerable to the other since it cannot move and is extremely weak to CC. Make balanced lists, perhaps with a couple FMC and a couple of those Stone Crushers, and make the Hyperios pick a target.

 Larmsword wrote:

Iron Arm can never be counted on, only Feel No Pain because Tervigons. The Sabre Gun Platform is also capable of the same. Literally every army can become like Grey Knights and Dark Eldar, capable of beating almost all competitive Tyranid lists almost automatically just by running a competitive build.

That's unfortunate, but the Sabre gun does little to Tyranid lists that HWTs didn't already do, except for its effectiveness against FMCs - which weren't really a problem with Guard anyways thanks to Vendettas. Basically all Sabres do is make a list without Vendettas possible.

 Larmsword wrote:

But while we're on the topic of non-Flyer related units, lets see what Imperial Armies also get:

Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!

The latest version of the rules nerfed this into the ground. It isn't good at all anymore and is considered shelved by everyone I know that owns one.

 Larmsword wrote:

Land Raider Achilles: With 6 capacity, it won't carry Terminators, but it can hold a cheap Power Weapon Wolf Guard/Death Company squad. But why only 6 capacity? To make room for the Thunderfire Cannon. Oh, and it has immunity to Lance and Melta, and any penetrating hits that still somehow get through get -1 to the damage chart. So what did I hear about Forgeworld "helping" Eldar? They can literally only fight this thing by charging it with a Wraithlord or with Swooping Hawks, or by getting close to it with Wraithguard. Their normal anti-tank strategies, their lifeline in 6th, are useless against it, while the Thunderfire Cannon makes mincemeat of their dudes. And how is Dark Eldar supposed to deal with this thing? Use a Talos?

And what does it do back to them? Shoot Eldar with Meltas that don't get the extra D6? Fire Str 6 Thunder-fire cannon shells at AV12 transports or T8 MCs? And Dark Eldar eat it alive with haywire grenades - they utterly demolish it.

Don't forget that it loses Assault Vehicle, costs >= 300 points, and does feth all really - bad armament for an MBT and bad transport capacity for a transport.

 Larmsword wrote:

Lucius Drop Pod: Furioso Dread with dual Blood Talons, anywhere, anytime. Bye bye, my best squad

Blood Angels do not have access to the Lucius.

 Larmsword wrote:

All this stuff is legal, in all games, for this year's Adepticon.

Not if they're using Forge Worlds own rules, they aren't.

 Larmsword wrote:

Eldar and Tau might have a tiny sliver of hope with their new Flyers, but Forge World will just make Imperial armies better,

All it does for Imperial armies is add more options that still don't get taken in favor of the codex units, usually.

 Larmsword wrote:

and will just throw off the disparity in power level between codices even further. Not everyone will play Forgeworld, but someone with more disposable income with you will, and will bring a LR Achilles full of Death Company, Furioso's in Lucius pods, and a huge Hyperios turret gunline of 12x 35 pt T6 krak missile skyfire goodness. Or perhaps even worse.

The first one is dumb, as the DC cannot assault out of it and you end up with a 600 point unit of helplessness, the second one is illegal, and the last one is OMG AMAZING because krak missiles are clearly the way of the future for 6th, which is why everyone is saying how good they are. Also, those launchers are immobile, auto-hit in CC, and take up FOC slots that one could use for one's own aircraft.

 Larmsword wrote:

So while I like the idea of Forge World being legal, I wonder if it will just further inflame the problems with 40k. Especially the problems that Eldar and Tyranids have. Am I being too pessimistic? What is the solution to these concerns I've brought up? I'd like to ask you guys, is jumping on the Forge World bandwagon a good idea right now? Should Forge World be allowed, but with a list of banned units that extends beyond the obvious "no Super-Heavies in normal scale games"? What are your thoughts?

You have my answers - they're not as bad as they sound.

 Larmsword wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Larmsword wrote:


Hades Breaching Drill: Did you think the Mawloc was good? Did you think Swooping Hawks were good? Well guess what, the Imperium does it better!

Lucius Drop Pod: Furioso Dread with dual Blood Talons, anywhere, anytime. Bye bye, my best squad

The Hades Breaching Drill was nerfed pretty hard in last year's release of Imperial Armor 1, Second edition. It's worse than a Mawloc, now.

Blood Angels can't take the Lucius Drop Pod per Imperial Armor: Apocalypse Second edition.

Well that's a relief, then. I looked it up, you're right, Blood Angels can't take the Lucius Drop Pod. Thanks for the info.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't still broken. And the fact that the Land Raider Achilles could single handedly put Eldar out of the meta, and the Hyperios Air Defence Battery could do the same to Tyranids, still makes me wonder if Forge World is such a good idea.

Under 6E, the Lucius is about the only way a dread will ever really get to assault against a competent opponent, costs an FA slot,and has a 1/6 chance to immobilize the dread, it's not so bad anymore (and I was one of its largest detractors on this very forum under 5E). Likewise, HP's and the changes to vehicle scoring/contesting make the achilles much less scary than it was, and as mentioned, the Hades drill got nerfed past the point of balance and back past the point where it's actually useful and well into "scenery/shelf-liner" status.

What FW *DOES* do that many people neglect is provide a more diverse array of flyers for those that lack them currently (and much more balanced than many released under Codex rules) as well as AA options that many xenos factions currently may lack. I've found it to be much more of an equalizer for Xenos than anything else.

I think the Doom of Malan'tai is too powerful. I also think Eldrad is too powerful. I think most of the Necron and Imperial Guard codex are too powerful as well.

Can someone please slap a Forgeworld logo on these things so I can ask that they be banned?

Can you imagine if a Valkyrie was Imperial Armor? Oh man, those FW guys have no idea how to balance the game.

No way Eldrad should be allowed since he's in Imperial Armor X...that guy is nuts.

The Tervigon? What the heck were they thinking? It can poop out units of Termagants that can move and shoot immediately? Oh man, that is so broken. Glad its in Imperial Armor so I don't have to see it in tournaments.

Yeah, I didn't realize how much Forge World Imperial stuff has been nerfed. I shouldn't be panicking. I guess it's not that bad, the real problem is the imbalance in the main game, and Forge World does rebalance certain factions. Hard to say which Forge World things would unbalance the game further, since most of the stuff doesn't seem too overwhelming and fits its army's playstyle. Guess people will just have to start trying it out in tournaments and see how good it is.

Those Krak Missile turrets are powerful and good against Tyranids, but there's plenty of other powerful stuff that is good against Tyranids that doesn't see play because it would be too easily beaten by a lot of other codices. An Aegis line with a quad gun can pump out almost as much firepower as a Hyperios turret formation, for less points, and can make your squad more durable by giving them an option to go to ground for a 2+ cover save.

I think I'll try running three Stone Crusher fexes with a kitbashed Malanthrope brood as an HQ choice, see how it turns out.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
40k needs a real tournament ruleset. Anything else is just bandaids on a dam. Until that happens you're still going to have massive problems with balance.

Not to troll...but the sooner you accept the complete and total lack of balance in 40k the better.

Honestly, the idea of 40k tournaments at this point is laughable. Its a competition between unequal teams. The only way it could even start to come close would be with a handicap system based on the army being used. Of course then the WAAC players who rush out and buy the newest power army would go berserk about being nerfed by the system.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 Bat Manuel wrote:
40k needs a real tournament ruleset. Anything else is just bandaids on a dam. Until that happens you're still going to have massive problems with balance.

Not to troll...but the sooner you accept the complete and total lack of balance in 40k the better.

Honestly, the idea of 40k tournaments at this point is laughable. Its a competition between unequal teams. The only way it could even start to come close would be with a handicap system based on the army being used. Of course then the WAAC players who rush out and buy the newest power army would go berserk about being nerfed by the system.

The bigger problem with trying to do something like this is that it is very, very hard to do with such a complex game.

You can't simply penalize a codex as a whole, because certainly within every codex there is a way to build a more powerful and less powerful army. So that means to make something truly fair you have to identify exactly what makes an army powerful, and then figure out a way to fairly 'penalize' a player for taking that army while still giving them an equal shot of winning the tournament. The problem is, it is rare for even two players to fully agree exactly what is over-powered and what is okay, especially when units acting synergistically with each other within an army can totally change how potent the individual units on their own might be.

In truth, the metagame on its own eventually balances things out...if flyer-heavy armies start to dominate, then those armies that have a lot of anti-flyer capabilities suddenly start to become popular to the point where flyer-heavy armies stop showing up so much and people start taking armies with no flyers at all to make all those points spent on anti-flyer defense are wasted when playing them, etc, etc, etc. The wheels of the metagame constantly spin.

The only problem with this system of balance is that it can often leave the army you've personally spent all that time and money building out in the cold sometimes for years on end.

But that is the nature of the game that GW has decided to create. They could go online with all their codexes and continually tweak them to reduce imbalance, but that kind of constant tinkering tends to annoy the casual player who doesn't want to have to keep up with new updates every few months (among other reasons), so GW is more than happy to continue the way they are...with each army only being nominally balanced against all the rest.

Allies obviously help by allowing more armies access to the FotM units, but of course allies are also implemented along fluff-lines rather than balance, so then you end up with the Tyranids being the red-headed stepchild in that department.

 Larmsword wrote:

Sabre Gun Platform: Imperial Guard already have the most AA and amazingly cheap Flyers, but why stop there? It's unfair to those poor Guard players to only get autocannons on the ground, to need aircraft of their own to get twin-linked skyfire lascannons! So let's allow them to hide those lascannons in an enormous, Ld10 stubborn objective-holding infantry blob! And let's give them Interceptor too, because it's not fair either to limit them to an anti-air role, and what if the unit arriving from reserve gets to shoot once at the guardsmen before getting shot down? We can't have that, can we?

They're not as broken as you seem to think, sabre gun platforms replace Heavy Weapon Squads not teams. Heavy weapon squads do not have the combined squad rule so may not form part of the blob.

FW even FAQ'd it in the IA1 2nd Edition FAQ available here

11) Can Sabre Weapons platforms be used to replace Heavy Weapons Teams in infantry squads, etc?
-No. A Sabre Weapons battery may be selected for an Imperial Guard force instead of a Heavy
Weapons squad as part of an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon only – individual platforms may not be
swapped out. They can also never be used as part of the Combined Squads rule.

They can't be part of the Combined Squads rule? Aren't they also Artillery?

I think that balances them out a lot then. They're just field guns with crew that have AA ability. They can deal some good damage to certain Flyers, but other Flyers can deal with them just fine: Flyrants can just Precision Shot their Devourers to kill the crew, and Heldrakes can get a ton of hits on them, no saves allowed, with their Baleflamers.

They are artillery and cannot be part of Combined Squads, so yes, they can be engaged and destroyed separately and cannot hide in 50man blobs. They're also only Ld7

So essentially, most of this post about FW comes down to someone not actually knowing all the rules about the FW models he's talking about?

 Bat Manuel wrote:
40k needs a real tournament ruleset. Anything else is just bandaids on a dam. Until that happens you're still going to have massive problems with balance.

The rules are not the issue. Its the players who see tournaments as an occupation. Unless we want GW tournament rules like the DCI MtG rules...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Unless we want GW tournament rules like the DCI MtG rules...

Which would be the best thing that could happen to 40k.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So essentially, most of this post about FW comes down to someone not actually knowing all the rules about the FW models he's talking about?

Yes. I was mistaken on the rules for the Sabre platforms, and didn't know about the nerfing of Lucius pods and the Breaching Drill.

That is actually one of the arguments against Forgeworld, that nobody knows that rules for it

But seriously, thanks for the info guys. I'm starting to understand the stuff Forgeworld has put out more and more. They've helped Eldar and Tau tremendously, and have given more, but not necessarily better, options to Imperial forces. If Sabre platforms are Artillery, and can't be combined with other squads, you're basically buying gun emplacements without buying the fortification, that only one squad in your army can fire. So it's not necessarily overpowered, it's just a niche option for something that Guard would like to do in the main game but can't. Just like how the Stone Crusher Carnifex rules give Tyranids a melee-oriented Heavy Support choice with a 2+ save, and the Malanthrope rules give Tyranids Monstrous Creatures that are a Command Squad style unit and don't take up a ton of points for what they do.

I absolutely support Eldar being able to have the Nightwing, they need it in this meta.

 Larmsword wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So essentially, most of this post about FW comes down to someone not actually knowing all the rules about the FW models he's talking about?

Yes. I was mistaken on the rules for the Sabre platforms, and didn't know about the nerfing of Lucius pods and the Breaching Drill.

That is actually one of the arguments against Forgeworld, that nobody knows that rules for it

But seriously, thanks for the info guys. I'm starting to understand the stuff Forgeworld has put out more and more. They've helped Eldar and Tau tremendously, and have given more, but not necessarily better, options to Imperial forces. If Sabre platforms are Artillery, and can't be combined with other squads, you're basically buying gun emplacements without buying the fortification, that only one squad in your army can fire. So it's not necessarily overpowered, it's just a niche option for something that Guard would like to do in the main game but can't. Just like how the Stone Crusher Carnifex rules give Tyranids a melee-oriented Heavy Support choice with a 2+ save, and the Malanthrope rules give Tyranids Monstrous Creatures that are a Command Squad style unit and don't take up a ton of points for what they do.

I absolutely support Eldar being able to have the Nightwing, they need it in this meta.

Well remember that for Artillery units the crew benefits from the Toughness of the gun...combine that with an Aegis Defence Line and the ability for the unit to Go To Ground for a 2+ save and then use orders to get back into the fight on the next turn and it IS a potent, potent unit.

It cannot be overlooked that there are some incredibly powerful IA units, as there should be. GW codexes are filled with both super potent and weak units, so there really isn't any reason that FW should be held to a higher standard with their IA rules.

The point is, allowing IA into tournaments for the reason helping to 'balance' the game is just as insane as bagging IA from tournaments because you're afraid it will 'imbalance' the game. The game is already incredibly imbalanced as it is, and that's just the way it is. If a T.O. wants to try to implement some crazy comp restrictions to impose what they consider to be 'balance' then fine, go for it. But IMHO, otherwise just let the game be what it is, and Imperial Armor is part of that game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Unless we want GW tournament rules like the DCI MtG rules...

Which would be the best thing that could happen to 40k.

40k doesn't work in the same way as MTG. They'd sooner nerf something, via White Dwarf update, than forbid players from using something they've been charging sixty dollars for.

Unless you mean the Tournament scene making its own banlist. Which would be interesting, but a lot of big name TOs would have to collaborate to really make it effective. And there would be a lot of complaints if stuff in the codices was banned. If the TO decided to pick and choose stuff from Forgeworld to allow, it would be different, but apparently as others have stated in this thread Forge World stuff, is for the most part, fun expansions for the game, not game breakers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:


Well remember that for Artillery units the crew benefits from the Toughness of the gun...combine that with an Aegis Defence Line and the ability for the unit to Go To Ground for a 2+ save and then use orders to get back into the fight on the next turn and it IS a potent, potent unit.

It cannot be overlooked that there are some incredibly powerful IA units, as there should be. GW codexes are filled with both super potent and weak units, so there really isn't any reason that FW should be held to a higher standard with their IA rules.

The point is, allowing IA into tournaments for the reason helping to 'balance' the game is just as insane as bagging IA from tournaments because you're afraid it will 'imbalance' the game. The game is already incredibly imbalanced as it is, and that's just the way it is. If a T.O. wants to try to implement some crazy comp restrictions to impose what they consider to be 'balance' then fine, go for it. But IMHO, otherwise just let the game be what it is, and Imperial Armor is part of that game.

That's true, it sounds pretty good. Now because the gun crew have different saving throws than the guns themselves, I can focus fire them, correct? But if there are at least as many artillery pieces as crew, the crew are considered to have toughness 7 against shooting?

 Peregrine wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Unless we want GW tournament rules like the DCI MtG rules...

Which would be the best thing that could happen to 40k.

This would be the worst thing to happen to 40k. Magic started to suck as a fun game when tournaments started. People would refuse to play if they weren't playing a "tournament-legal" deck. The DCI started fiddling with deck construction to the point that cards cycle out of legal use every year, requiring a boat-load of "invalidated" cards piling up at home. I don't want that for 40k. I don't want to see Death Company being banned because they could be loaded with twin-hammers and jump packs. Or the Draigo-wing. Or whatever else people come up with and dozens of Timmy the Power Gamers copy.

Adopt, adapt, and improve.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
40k needs a real tournament ruleset. Anything else is just bandaids on a dam. Until that happens you're still going to have massive problems with balance.

No, 40k needs a remake. A total and complete remake. Oh, and a new running company...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
People would refuse to play if they weren't playing a "tournament-legal" deck.

Yeah, you know you want to play against my not-tournament-legal deck and lose every game on the first turn...

People refuse to play against decks that aren't tournament-legal (in at least one tournament format) because if you don't follow those restrictions the game ceases to be fun. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a balanced metagame where skill is relevant than an "anything goes" game where the winner is the player who wins the coin flip to go first and playing the actual game is entirely redundant.

The DCI started fiddling with deck construction to the point that cards cycle out of legal use every year, requiring a boat-load of "invalidated" cards piling up at home.

You realize that the whole format rotation thing was part of the game right from the beginning, right? And that it was only a last second design change that let you play multiple sets at once at all instead of having a complete new game with every expansion? The DCI just created standardized tournament formats from that goal of a constantly-changing game.

Also, tournaments are more than just standard. And block rotation is good for the game.

I don't want that for 40k. I don't want to see Death Company being banned because they could be loaded with twin-hammers and jump packs. Or the Draigo-wing. Or whatever else people come up with and dozens of Timmy the Power Gamers copy.

Yeah, it's far better to leave problem units in the game and do nothing about them for years at a time, and have countless units effectively banned because they compete for FOC slots/points with overpowered mistakes that GW refuses to change.

Also, it's a terrible analogy because something as utterly terrible as dual-TH death company would never be banned if we're using a MTG-style policy. WOTC has never banned cards (outside of a very few that had to be banned because their rules no longer functioned) that haven't had a demonstrated and indisputable history of dominating tournaments, and IMO all of the bans have been a good decision.