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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/12 17:44:09
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I've been thinking towards future events, The Warstore Weekend and Templecon, what are your thoughts on competitave play?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/12 17:53:18
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Fixture of Dakka
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Catyrpelius wrote:I've been thinking towards future events, The Warstore Weekend and Templecon, what are your thoughts on competitave play?
If there are enough players for it, I'd love to see some Brushfire/Endless Tourneys run. While we couldn't do a 'Clash of Kings' level of prize support, we would provide something nice
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/12 17:57:00
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cyporiean wrote: Catyrpelius wrote:I've been thinking towards future events, The Warstore Weekend and Templecon, what are your thoughts on competitave play?
If there are enough players for it, I'd love to see some Brushfire/Endless Tourneys run. While we couldn't do a 'Clash of Kings' level of prize support, we would provide something nice 
Aww no $1,500 grand prize?
Your not going to leave me high and dry like another company I know who's name begins with a W are you?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/12 17:59:28
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Fixture of Dakka
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Catyrpelius wrote: Cyporiean wrote: Catyrpelius wrote:I've been thinking towards future events, The Warstore Weekend and Templecon, what are your thoughts on competitave play?
If there are enough players for it, I'd love to see some Brushfire/Endless Tourneys run. While we couldn't do a 'Clash of Kings' level of prize support, we would provide something nice 
Aww no $1,500 grand prize?
Your not going to leave me high and dry like another company I know who's name begins with a W are you?
Nah, I'll hand out prizes while at the show itself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 03:16:10
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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I don't know if the game really lends itself to competitive play, but I would absolutely love another mega battle like we had at TempleCon
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 03:23:35
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Old Sourpuss
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RiTides wrote:I don't know if the game really lends itself to competitive play, but I would absolutely love another mega battle like we had at TempleCon 
Could you elaborate on the game not lending itself to competitive play? I'm just curious as to why you think it wouldn't lend itself to competitive play, because I would love to see tournaments.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 03:30:57
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Nimble Skeleton Charioteer
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I think it totally lends to competitive play. It has the custom list building good parts of 40k and the straightforward ruleset of, well, not 40k.
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It's spelled "cavalry." NOT "calvary." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 13:29:44
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Alfndrate wrote: RiTides wrote:I don't know if the game really lends itself to competitive play, but I would absolutely love another mega battle like we had at TempleCon 
Could you elaborate on the game not lending itself to competitive play? I'm just curious as to why you think it wouldn't lend itself to competitive play, because I would love to see tournaments.
This is something we discussed a bit late one night at Templecon. It is my feeling that some of the units aren't exactly balanced for their point cost mainly Warhogs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 13:41:47
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Old Sourpuss
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So is it just the Warhogs that are causing issues? I mean I personally thing Otter Ashigaru should be a few more points simply because they destroyed my Aquitar with their bows. Note: I don't have my book on me, and my development with OTL is entirely EFT related, so when it comes to Brushfire, I know pretty much as much as you guys do.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 13:41:54
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 13:58:26
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Alfndrate wrote:So is it just the Warhogs that are causing issues? I mean I personally thing Otter Ashigaru should be a few more points simply because they destroyed my Aquitar with their bows.
Note: I don't have my book on me, and my development with OTL is entirely EFT related, so when it comes to Brushfire, I know pretty much as much as you guys do.
It's not the only example, but it's the one that came to mind first. Should a 5 resource Warhog be able to easily defeat a 10 point Hamster Berserker?
During our Megabattle at Templecon on Saturday, because of the way a certain persons units came onto the battlefield, 100 resources of Warhogs were about to hold their own against roughly 170 resources of Vandalands...
I'll admit though I haven't played the game that much so this could have been an anomoly or it may have more to do with playing the game at high point values.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 14:00:31
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Scribe of Dhunia
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I am not a competitive tournament player, but I would gladly partake in a small casual one for Brushfire, as long as the stakes remain low, so people don't go crazy with winning at al cost. Luckily, I'm planning on attending both Con mentioned by the OP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 14:16:04
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tonio wrote:I am not a competitive tournament player, but I would gladly partake in a small casual one for Brushfire, as long as the stakes remain low, so people don't go crazy with winning at al cost. Luckily, I'm planning on attending both Con mentioned by the OP. 
With the amount of attention that Brushfire got at Templecon I think there would be plenty of intrest in a small tournement next year. If it was planned out and advertised well in advance.
I think the Warstore Weekend is going to be more of a Megabattle event.
All of my tournements are beginer freindly. Generally when I run demos in conjunction with a tournement I like to run them as basically one long event. Think demos in the morning and the tournement later in the day. Get them interested with the demo then set the hook with a freindly tournement . Let them know that their free to use their own models which are avalible at the booth over there but their more then welcome to use some of the demo armies I have setup...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 14:28:02
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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I simply meant the rules may need tightening up for a truly "competitive" event, but I'm all for a casual tourney, mega battle, etc etc
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 14:32:43
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Scribe of Dhunia
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That's exactly my kind of event then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 14:47:11
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Old Sourpuss
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I think besides unit balance would be to look at what size of game would be considered average. I'm not a tournament 40k player by far, but my army lists were always centered around the point sizes of local and national tournaments. So that would definitely be one thing to look at as a starting point, but not the only thing that should be looked at. As to the Warhogs vs. Hamsters, the hamsters should have decimated the hogs on just a stat comparison, the Hamsters have a better might, wits, and vitality. Their weapons Are 2De, 1Ap, and 1 handed. If a Hamster hits with both axes (which it should, considering it's Mt vs the Ws of the War-Hogs), then the first axe will take care of the Armor from Hardened Skin, and the second axe takes away the the last point of armor and deals 2 points of damage. A second hamster can (if the player chooses) devote 1 attack to kill off that hog and move on. The issue seems to come from the 4 Armor that your stock standard War Hog gets, which seems like they're fantastic tarpit units (cheap costs, and with no reason to upgrade) On the other hand, with Heart of the Fatherland, it would seem insane if the Hamsters were 5 food creatures. I am wondering, were the hamsters using their fear? Edit: Remember, I'm going off of pictures, your guys' reports, and my rulebook. Also should be noted that I didn't have RiTides or Tonio's most recent posts when I wrote this. Automatically Appended Next Post: RiTides wrote:I simply meant the rules may need tightening up for a truly "competitive" event, but I'm all for a casual tourney, mega battle, etc etc  Could you give specific examples of rules tightening? That way we (mostly Matt and Em) have something that we should look at.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 14:54:43
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 14:51:11
Subject: Re:Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Dakka Veteran
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Not to dismiss the issues you may have seen, but I will say that 'holding their own' seems far better than some other games, being tabled by an equal force half way through a game.
Len was down to about 5 War-Hogs on Turn 3, when I finally got my Legionnaires on the table. RiTides still had: All of his Rat Raiders crewing his catapults, about 5 Hamsters, 3 Valks, his hero, 2 Hussars. Even just ignoring the Raiders, thats about 100 food still on the table compared to 25. He started with 15 Hamsters, 3 Valks, and 4 Hussars, 220 Food of models. He lost half, Len lost three quarters of his army, and was pretty much off the table on Turn 4.
The issue of the Hamster vs War-Hogs is relatively simple to analyze. Both essentially have no upgrades (War-Hogs can upgrade their shield for an extra armor point, but thats not much, and Len had that on about 5 models) The Points put into their stats is based on their cost. Hamsters get way more MT than the War-Hogs and have more VY. The War Hogs have more armor. They do about the same amount of damage, put on equal footing if the War-Hog takes their shield upgrade for a 2 DE attack instead of 1 DE. Using RiTides' resource counting, the War-Hogs actually cost more with their Shield. Especially when you consider RiTides has the Heart of the Fatherlands ability with his army, able to divert LR/GD to FD, the War Hogs are the more expensive unit, and the armies were far closer to equal footing.
Another thought to consider is the sort of 'rock paper scissors' (Though I'd like to imagine its not that simple) of unit types, Both units of Hamsters and War Hogs are heavy hitting frontliners, somethings got to give, and in this game, the Hamsters did, they had less armor, and not enough armor penetration. Badgers getting maul every turn (as likely to hit as the Hamsters, and the Hamsters were hitting every turn) each badger would kill a War-Hog, quickly taking them out of the equation. Sometimes it comes down to deciding where to press your forces. Against Emily's Ashigaru Gunline, being dropped on them via Hamster Ball, the Hamsters might have had a feast!
(Again none of this is dismissing your concerns, as we get ready for the next printing we will be looking at any issues that have been raised and seek to rectify them.)
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Lockark wrote:If you stat it, they will kill it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:03:31
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Nimble Skeleton Charioteer
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I think a mega-battle is the wrong context to examine and compare costs of units.
My baneblade frequently gets taken out in Apoc by a single IG Vet with a melta gun coming on the board from behind it. Even if you count the cost of a tactical asset it's still 300+ less than the baneblade. The enormous scale breaks the game.
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It's spelled "cavalry." NOT "calvary." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:09:12
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Thanks for the explination Matt, it puts things into perspective, although from what I've seen a high armor value is more benifical then a high vitality. Either way it something for me to look at in future games.
One of the things that baffels me rules wise is the grace+D10 defense roll. Not the roll itself but how it's done for different types of attacks. For example, I have a unit of 5 Legionaers shooting their rifles at a group of 5 Hamster Berserkers. On my 5 attack dice I get [3,5,5,7,9] the Hamsters roll their 1 defense dice and get a [5]. Modifiers then get added and all attack values that were less then or equal to the defense value are discarded. Now looking at that same group of 5 Hamster Berserkers, this time they get shot at by a HLvl 5 Trapper with a Hand Cannon. The 3" blast template covers all of the Hamsters. I roll 5 attack dice. My opponant now rolls 5 dice defense dice. Why does the number of defense dice change between the two different types of shooting attacks?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:14:54
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Fixture of Dakka
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1) Its WS for dodging Page 17, Edition 1.2 wrote: Templates Attacks and weapons that have a ‘X” template’ in their profile attack all models in a circular area X” in diameter (3” and 5” Templates are sold at your Local Game Store.) To determine which models have been hit by a template attack, each attacking model in a squad that can make a template attack must place the template over the same enemy model. Roll one attack roll for each template. Each defending model rolls WS for each template that affects them. Template attacks may also deviate, refer to the Armory entry on deviations. 2) Template is 1 Attack roll for the Template, 1 Dodge Roll per each target under the template. Its just the inverse of firing with a non-template attack.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 15:23:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:19:42
Subject: Re:Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Dakka Veteran
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Caty, that change is simply for Templates, which can hit multiple squads at once. Additionally, if the defender (you use Wits not Grace) rolls high, the entire template is likely to miss. Another mechanic of templates is, if they miss everything under them, you deviate once, and try again, before the template goes away. You could say this represents the Template attack 'missing' its aim, or someone grabbing a grenade and tossing it away (though that obviously doesnt apply to Cannon fire). So there are two mechanical concepts for the WS roll from every model with Templates.
(EDIT: Apparently I forget my own rules, 'swhat I get for working on two games at once, but the Template deviation concept still applies) EDIT 2: Re-reading what Em Quoted means that I was right, One WS roll for EACH model under the template.
As far as organized play, we wrote up a deep Campaign system, which I would sort of like to see people give a try. Its not the same as a tourney format in anyway, and more like a League, or RPG/Mordheim Campaign. As its not a tourney, it wouldn't work in say a convention format, but would be great for getting folks into the game at stores, and keeping people playing. RiTides may not be a fan (just taking jabs at you out of fun) as it actually encourages non-symmetrical play, simply gathering the amount of forces your country can pay for from their regions to defend territories, and your opponent may bring a larger invasion force. "More like real life", but also provides interesting tactical possiblities: Do I go full Alamo/300 making them pay for every inch? Or do I strike hard at valuable targets and then flee the field of battle, to fight another day?
This is the kind of play I would like to see, Wars that take place over months, Where you get used to your opponent's army and figure out what to build for your next army.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 15:22:57
Lockark wrote:If you stat it, they will kill it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:24:38
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Makes sense.
Is the campaing write up something you can share? I'd like to give it a try.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:25:52
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Fixture of Dakka
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Catyrpelius wrote:Makes sense.
Is the campaing write up something you can share? I'd like to give it a try.
its in the rulebook...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:30:43
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This game has a rulebook?
I guess I finally have to read the damn thing from cover to cover...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:37:43
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Old Sourpuss
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Page 51
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 15:42:55
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Dakka Veteran
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Catyrpelius wrote:
This game has a rulebook?
I guess I finally have to read the damn thing from cover to cover...
Everyday a little piece of me dies, thanks for being the cause today.
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Lockark wrote:If you stat it, they will kill it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 17:07:31
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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miskatonicalum wrote: Catyrpelius wrote:
This game has a rulebook?
I guess I finally have to read the damn thing from cover to cover...
Everyday a little piece of me dies, thanks for being the cause today.
Whats next, gunna tell me you have a website?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 18:58:42
Subject: Re:Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Dakka Veteran
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I am not aware of what you are referencing, but I'm sure its hilarious.
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Lockark wrote:If you stat it, they will kill it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/14 10:01:50
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Fixture of Dakka
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Catyrpelius wrote:Makes sense.
Is the campaing write up something you can share? I'd like to give it a try.
I lolled.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/14 19:53:58
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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To reiterate / clarify my comments again, I was not referring to unit balance, just the "tightness" of the rules.
An easy example is trebuchet says pick a point X d10 inches away + 5". Matt clarified this means pick a line/direction, then roll.
Gym and I couldn't determine whose heroic action had precedence- hers saying my unit couldn't rush next turn, or mine saying I could immediately rush.
Things like model/unit distinctions, being in/out of combat, and many basics I now understand thanks to Matt, but the rule text itself is too vague to know for sure.
When a stand and shoot happens, what happens if I launch by hamsters off the board, etc. The rules are too brief/vague and require interpretation. This makes it totally fun for "beer and pretzels" but not a RAW tourney environment.
This post is meant for Matt, as I have probably physically played more games than anyone but him and Cyp, and I haven't played many  . I love the rules but would eagerly pay for expanded, clearer ones. The quick start page has almost as much base rules info as the entire rulebook!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I know I can get answers to all of the above here. That is not the issue. The issue is, can someone know the answer from just the text, without asking the creator? The answer is no- it is not written down.
My friends all loved the aesthetic of Brushfire, all mentioned it at some point. But each of them also commented that the rules looked like they were not tight/polished. I would looooooove a new rulebook, but it would need more actual RULES, examples, diagrams, etc.
I'd kickstart that
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/14 20:01:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/14 20:04:05
Subject: Thoughts on Competitave Play
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Yellin' Yoof
Jacksonvile, Florida
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Letting competitive players create a metagame is a good way to figure out all the flaws a game has. After all, 40k players have proven this with their metagames, but then again GW does not playtest(very well) and takes forever to fix rules exploits and balance issues.
If your game has cases like Ogrins and Flash Gitz, then there might be something wrong.
And then I was fired.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/14 20:05:25
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