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 Tonio wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Tonio wrote:

I was probably unclear. The .05 beta document allows the use of unreleased models, by using proxies. But at the same time, it prohibits from using unreleased MINIATURES. So you can use a Lem Han, but only if you convert/kitbash one. That's what I find doesn't make sense. If you can use the rules, why limits the model?

Allowing people to use unreleased models for stuff in the book but without mini is fine. A bit like GW does, contrary to PP/Wyrd. In a game with a slow or inegal release schedule like Brushfire, it's the right way to go if you want to have more than a couple factions represented.

Hrm... perhaps I'm getting my signals crossed... the way it's supposed to read is like this:
1) Miniatures (physical things) that have not been released to the general public cannot be used except at an event where they're available
2) Released unit types with rules, but without miniatures (physical things) may be used, but must have a proxy that have to fit the theme of the game, be easily identifiable and on the right base.

Then, we are reading the same thing, but we don't agree on the principle. Why would you limit a miniature from being used, if the player can proxy the unit anyway? It doesn't give him a unfair advantage. That's all the ban in WM/H or Malifaux boils down to: if the model is not released, you cannot play the unit at all, to warrant an even playing field.

It's the spirit of the ruling I don't understand, not the ruling itself. I hope that is a bit clearer.

Lol, glad we cleared that up... I'll talk it over with Cy and Misk...

I haven't researched this yet but I'm wondering what the rest of you guys think...

Are Exemplars mandatory for competitive play?

It struck me that they are much more powerful than most other options resource for resource. I could well be wrong and I'd quite like to be but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I think Mercenaries add to the issue by introducing many more Exemplars to choose from or to include at higher point games.

If they do turn out to be a little OP compared to equipment or siege machines that you might buy instead should there be a cap on how many you can take? Or how many resources you can spend on them?

With 2nd in beta this is the perfect time to figure this stuff out.

Not sure that I'd call the 4 Exemplars in the Merc doc 'many more'

Personally, I don't think any exemplars are mandatory*. Some factions benefit more from there exemplars, such as Ribenguo or Axony.. but those two's exemplars are really more of 'Character Units' then stuff like Tamias or Timmus.

In 2nd Edition we've changed most of the equipment costs, including siege weapon costs. These changes should make them a bit more viable for taking.

*Other then maybe 1st Edition Arctos and Juan.

Haha yeh 'many' is a bit strong. It's a lot for a skirmish scale gaming though. If the equipment and stuff is going to be cheaper then that might solve the issue straight up.

I'm going to have to look through 2nd before I comment further. If they are OP then there are tonnes of easy solutions but I'm probably fabricating this issue. I've just keep imagining higher point games where Axony can field like 9 exemplars. If Siege Artillery was cheaper that could negate them but then maybe the Basillica would be OP.

...Yeh I need to read 2nd.

Its also a matter of what do Kardaxx, Hua Poi Kay/Lao Yi, Leblac, and Jacques do for your army? Other then be priority targets for your opponent's range units?

Its also much more difficult for your opponent to take out/shut down a siege weapon then an Exemplar.

But yeah, read through 2nd Edition

 Casey's Law wrote:

If they do turn out to be a little OP compared to equipment or siege machines that you might buy instead should there be a cap on how many you can take? Or how many resources you can spend on them?

But for the most part, several of the factions only have a small handful of Exemplars, and for the most part their cost tends to prohibit taking more than 1 or 2 of the Unique Exemplars.

I think it's something that will have to be played, but I don't think placing a cap on them is the right thing to do.

I also didn't had the chance to try it out, but actually a siege weapon is more expensive than listed because cannons aren't going to fire themselves. So one can count +15 resource per siege weapon for a crew.

Siege weapons are also very situational. it's not that hard to avoid the ballista or the cannon if there is enough terrain, so mostly they are just wasted resource. Not to mention that if things go wrong they can be taken by the enemy.

While exemplars are really strong at any situation, it takes an another exemplar to take down one, they are mobile, usually have the damage potential of a siege weapon and have amazing utility with their banners and horns.

If there is no structure to destroy -so siege weapons are a necessity- I would take exemplars over siege weapons.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I also didn't had the chance to try it out, but actually a siege weapon is more expensive than listed because cannons aren't going to fire themselves. So one can count +15 resource per siege weapon for a crew.

Siege weapons are also very situational. it's not that hard to avoid the ballista or the cannon if there is enough terrain, so mostly they are just wasted resource. Not to mention that if things go wrong they can be taken by the enemy.

While exemplars are really strong at any situation, it takes an another exemplar to take down one, they are mobile, usually have the damage potential of a siege weapon and have amazing utility with their banners and horns.

If there is no structure to destroy -so siege weapons are a necessity- I would take exemplars over siege weapons.

This is a good point. This might just be the 40k player in me coming out, but more 100 points of bodies on the table is better than 100 points of siege weapons (this is obviously a larger number than we deal with here in Brushfire, but the point kind of stands). The best part though is like if I wanted to run a Trebuchet (one of the better siege weapons imo), Under 2nd Edition, I spend 15 food for a small unit of 3 Chugokan Color Guard. Keep them as basic as I can (no paid upgrades, and their free one), and the lumber and gold it'd cost for a trebuchet balances out against what I'm normally taking on a unit of Chugokan Color Guard. Though I suppose they are actually cheaper under 2nd Ed Rules since the upgrade is free and the only thing I'd have to spend is to get a heater lol. . And if you're RiTides, he uses trebuchets to launch his Hamsters across the board... So the special ammo is always a nice reason to take siege weapons.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Siege weapons are also very situational. it's not that hard to avoid the ballista or the cannon if there is enough terrain, so mostly they are just wasted resource. Not to mention that if things go wrong they can be taken by the enemy.

From my wargaming experiance, if I can field a model that is going to make you avoid it's area of influance I'm probably going to win the game. By making you react like that to a model of mine on the table it's completly stolen any initiative from you and given it to me. It's important to remember that not every model in an army needs to be there because of it's ability to deal a large amount of damage. It's my opinion that a model that basically dictates how your going to move will be much more important.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Siege weapons are also very situational. it's not that hard to avoid the ballista or the cannon if there is enough terrain, so mostly they are just wasted resource. Not to mention that if things go wrong they can be taken by the enemy.

From my wargaming experiance, if I can field a model that is going to make you avoid it's area of influance I'm probably going to win the game. By making you react like that to a model of mine on the table it's completly stolen any initiative from you and given it to me. It's important to remember that not every model in an army needs to be there because of it's ability to deal a large amount of damage. It's my opinion that a model that basically dictates how your going to move will be much more important.

That's a good point.

But still, Exemplars are basically the same here. They will dictate the game because ignoring them is fatal. Also Exemplars mostly aren't cost food and need no operating crew. They damage potential is not dependent on luck as the siege weapon's. There even is a few with Artillery weapons, and besides the hamster ball - which became a bit less effective with the fear change - exemplars are clearly the way over siege weapons.

But that might be intended.

Except that Exemplars aren't always the way to go. Looking at Chugoku, who has a lot of Exemplars but that's because of the split nature of the faction. If I take Gan Zi, I gain fire on ranged attacks (only good if he's in a squad with them), and if they ambush from forest or water terrain, they don't deviate. If there is no water or forest terrain on the board, or I don't have Crossbows in my Chugokan Color guard, then he's a waste of 25 lr and gd.

Those resources could be spent on a Trebuchet (10lr/'20gd), which gives me a deviating fireball, rocks, boulders, etc... Just by placing down the fireball special ammo, I block off an area of the board, potentially up to 10 inches from wherever it lands. No one is going to want to go near it because it sets things on fire. That means that the rest of my army can prepare and wait for you to come into an area that is more advantagous for me in a fight. Whether it's small enough that you can't get many models in there, or large enough for me to get clear shots without giving up any. Exemplars aren't the be all end all...

They're supplementary to the unit they go with. Would you say that exemplars are the obviously better choice if they also cost food?

What is this fireball thing you are talking about?

Well, I would still not play with that fireball. Trebuches are too unpredictable.

The problem with the trebuchet is that you definitely don't want to shoot too short, giving the deviation a chance to make the shot come back at you. It gets riskier when you have to shoot over your units.

The more dice you roll, the more stable the shot gets(statistically), so it's at best at hitting things at 32-33 inch. It also will probably not hit anything, so it's going to deviate.

Actually Warhammer Fantasy equivalents of this weapon are worse, but I bet yo aren't going to block strategic points on the map with it.

(Apparently rats are fireproof now. It's amazing!)


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It's also that you have six chance to shoot with it provided some game You probably will not shoot just maybe four times with it. You will probably completely and miss two of those.

It's a gamle and the deck is stacked against you.

Only Ordenstaat Rats are Fireproof.

Frack I forgot we got rid of that as their Siege Weapon Special Rule....

In 1st edition, I had a deviating firebomb that I could shoot once as part of my Chugokan Siege Weapon Special Rule D:

Even still, I can get plenty of board control with Traction Catapult by selecting Rocks as my ammo... That's 6 deviating small templates in a single operation. You'd likely not want to be within range of my trebuchets. And while I can't block off the entire board, I can make you think twice about where you move.

I bet you don't like to be on the range of your own trebuches either. And that is the problem.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I bet you don't like to be on the range of your own trebuches either. And that is the problem.

With the exception of 5 Red Wu, I play a very melee oriented Chugoku... I don't care about being in range of my own trebuchets, that's the risk I take.

Deviating templates are a calculated risk in any war game that has them. 40k players deal with it all the time.

The most a template can deviate up to is 9 inches, and that should only happen 1/10th of the time.

If my army is under trebuchet fire, Ignoring it completely is as good as a tactic as actually trying to avoid it. The area where a trebuchet can hit a unit is too big relative to the area it actually gonna hurt someone. meaning I can't dodge the danger zone while you can't grantee any hits. You might hit some units of mine but that's far not guaranteed.

Also, almost any unit can be equipped with a 2 AR shield that if they don't have the health to survive one hit or even two.


Having an exemplar on the other hand is far more beneficial.

Sounds like maybe we should double the DE Siege Weapons deal.

I've given good examples of why siege weapons are worth taking... Why are exemplars better? What exemplars seem auto-includes?

 Alfndrate wrote:
I've given good examples of why siege weapons are worth taking... Why are exemplars better? What exemplars seem auto-includes?

For me atleast, and it should be noted I haven't seen the 2nd edition ruleset, exemplars are worth taking because I often have nothing else to spend my wood and gold on.

Your choice with exemplars is either spending wood and gold on exemplars or spending wood and gold on unit upgrades.

Well, let's see the threbuchet, which is the only weapon capable of shooting anything on the map since it's not blocked by terrain.

Let's shoot a 3 dice rock.

The impact point might be anywhere from 8 inch to 35 inch from the trebuchet, but it's probably going to be at somewhere between 15 and 25 inch. The rock may deviate 9 inch, meaning it can land anywhere in a 18 inch diameter circle from the impact point. So it will land - by having a decent range roll - in an oval-shaped area starting at 4 inch from the trebuchet(if the deviation decides to go full range backward), going to 34 inch(full range forward) so it's 30 inch long and 18 inch wide.

Since the deviation roll is one dice, no result is more probable than other. The range roll being 3 dice, results around 16-17 are more probable than others.

On this area it will affect a circle area in five inch diameter, dealing 4 DE - ignores body armor.

I might be wrong, but good luck aiming with that. You will need it.


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As a comparison one rat raider deals 4 DE 1 AP if it hits both with the shield and the pike. Meaning those rocks are made out of snow maybe.


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Also the template itself might hang out from the probable impact area, further increasing the danger zone with a 2,5 inch wide border

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I've given good examples of why siege weapons are worth taking... Why are exemplars better? What exemplars seem auto-includes?

For me atleast, and it should be noted I haven't seen the 2nd edition ruleset, exemplars are worth taking because I often have nothing else to spend my wood and gold on.

Your choice with exemplars is either spending wood and gold on exemplars or spending wood and gold on unit upgrades.

Same, I currently don't own any Trebuchets, I've been proxying them with a 50mm base. And none of my Chugoku exemplars are out, so I just play with what I have.

Also remember, Exemplars are limited in number. I can't stack my force with copies of Gan Zi, or Iron Claws, or Arctos... I get 1 of them... If I could take multiples of some of the Exemplars, you're right, I probably would. I'd love to have 1 Gan Zi per squad of Red Wu, but I can't...

And much like real warfare, you're not bringing cannons with you to skirmishes... Siege Weapons, fortifications, and accessories are supposed to help you fill out your resources in such a way so when you play a game of say 150 resources, you're able to use 150 food, lumber, and gold. Not all of us have Heart of the Fatherland

Also that. It's surprisingly hard to find siege weapons in the appropriate size. You guys might recommend some. My Skaven stuff is nowhere near to fit in an 50mm base.

The Bretonnian Trebuchet should be the right size, RiTides has a source for some plastic ones as well.

Cannons are dime a dozen in any historical range.

Balista/Scorpions are also prevalent in Historical Ranges, but we'll have one in the tail end of the year.

 Cyporiean wrote:
The Bretonnian Trebuchet should be the right size, RiTides has a source for some plastic ones as well.

Cannons are dime a dozen in any historical range.

Balista/Scorpions are also prevalent in Historical Ranges, but we'll have one in the tail end of the year.

The things that RiTides has are more along the lines of a catapult but they look awsome and they actually work.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

The things that RiTides has are more along the lines of a catapult but they look awsome and they actually work.

Yeah, Catapult/Trebuchet, same basic principle.

Much in the way a 'Rifle' can be a musket, rifle, carbine, etc or a 'Sword' can be a shovel.

Personaly I use the gondor Trebuchet from GW since it doesn't have any iconography on it.

So, on a whim I decided to spend like 3 hours coming up with a nice graph of the distributions of where your Treb ammo can land BEFORE deviations based on the number of dice you throw. Turns out it was a huge pain in Excel, and I won't be doing the deviations. I can send you my file if you want it.

As a note, in 2.0 you no longer make additional deviations based on number of distance dice rolled. Now you only make deviations for the Rocks or Unique Ammo that call for it, before rolling to attack.

Additionally, Cannons and Trebuchets both require no LoS to make attacks. Models blocked by any amount of terrain gain cover bonuses.

A ballista's fire will stop at the first terrain piece and deals the damage of a simple bow(altough ignores body armor) in a line. Models have to line up to make it worth more than a bow.

The cannon looks more useful but you try to hit with a 3 inch template only, and it's "Incoming" also deals just one point of damage(ignores body armor) According to this nice table, you hit an one-inch wide model with 30% precisity with the initial blast, if you shoot exactly at 26 inch. Shooting to 20 or 30 inch however will only results at a 12% hit chance.

The trebuchet works best at 17 inch range with two dice, having a nice 50% hit rate aiming at a one inch wide target.

...If I haven't forgot too much about this since college.

If I have to choose between an exemplar and a siege weapon, I take the exemplar any time.


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Warhammer Fantasy siege weapons - at least the ones I know about - have really bad precisity. It's not uncommon to shoot out of the table. But, if it hits something, that is dead. The simple stone thrower says: "The unit under the middle of the template is dead, others take a ton of damage".

In here, units that It would be sensible to shoot with siege weapons usually survive one hit.