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I didn't think Courage and Honour could be that bad, so i read it. It was worse than i expected and it's clear that Graham Mcneill knows very little about the Tau, the book has:
Spoiler:
A Pathfinder Surrendering (Possible, but i think it would be unlikely)
An Orca full of Tau (24 FireWarriors, 6 Crisis suits and drones) only managing to kill about 2 Skiitari and 3 Space Marines.
Close Combat Crisis suits that decide it's a good idea to jump right next to some Space Marines and start Kicking and punching them instead of shooting, with one of them armed with a power-khopesh sword.
Dozens of Hammerheads, Devilfish, Battlesuits, Hundreds of Firewarriors and other things being sacrificed by the Tau in a diversion attack
2 Predators taking out over a dozen Tau Skimmers
Dozens of Tau tanks being destroyed by the Imperial Guard like they are nothing, with hardly any losses to the Guardsmen.
Plenty of hints that an Ethereal has some sort of mind control powers that even work on humans
An Ethereal having some sort of magic touch that makes pain go away (it works in humans)
A Pathfinder suddenly becoming a Fire Warrior
A Bonding Knife being called an Honour Blade and being used as a melee weapon
Tau chest armour doing nothing against what is pretty much a sharp stick (a crutch with a sharpened edge)
Tau Helmets doing nothing against being hit on the head with a crutch
Kroot and Vespid are apparently expendable, despite the Tau not even considering drones as expendable
Battlesuits doing nothing against bolter rounds, even though they should offer some protection
Battlesuits and Stealth suits that for some reason decide not to use their jump packs to get away from close combat and would rather stay and try to punch space marines
Pulse rifles doing NOTHING against power armour
Tau having red blood
A female fire warrior has normal feet, instead of hooves
I think it also had two batons the Ethereals have being called Honour Blades.
Space Marines stealing Tetras and using them to sneak past Drone sentry Towers.
The Tau don't realize the Imperial Guard are blowing up bridges, even though they already destroyed 1, so they cross it and it gets blown up as they cross.
Several times the book calls the Tau over confident and has them make assumptions that cause them to take quite a few losses (such as thinking a Squad of Space Marine scouts is just an Imperial Guard spotter team so they only send 4 Tetras against them)
The Female pathfinder that seems to really like close combat - using an Eviscerator and later on using her bonding knife (called an honour blade in the book) to repeatedly stab someone because she is angry.
Ethereal Guards being absolutely useless (and for some reason 1 of them is the female pathfinder) and can't take down 3 unarmed civilians, one of which is very old.
For some reason half of the Tau plan involves getting the Imperial Governor to join them. He was going to (although the book says it's because of mind control by the Ethereal that he considers it) but then he realises the Tau are holding guns and decides they are evil. Later on the Tau try again and he decides he will actually join them, although again he decides they are actually evil, so they forcibly kidnap him with a knife to his throat, even though at this point he is no longer governor and isn't any more important than anyone else. The book tries really hard to make the Tau look bad, can't have anything non-imperial look good!
Oh, and it also has Space Marines actually crying.
It is a terrible book .
I love it, it describes Tau pretty well.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Kroothawk wrote: Well, you have been warned (though I admit that I forgot some of the bad stuff). It is the same author that let Fulgrim choke an Eldar Avatar to death that doesn't even breath! Sadly, McNeill once was the second best BL writer.
Concerning the hooves: Hooves bad for climbing? Are you kidding???
And ladders are for humans, Tau have ramps. And no big deal putting leather shoes on hooves for silent movement.
And I also don't follow the "Buddha is boring, Kali is cool" argument.
So that's how you picture it.... It's a little silly.
I didn't think Courage and Honour could be that bad, so i read it. It was worse than i expected and it's clear that Graham Mcneill knows very little about the Tau, the book has:
Spoiler:
A Pathfinder Surrendering (Possible, but i think it would be unlikely)
An Orca full of Tau (24 FireWarriors, 6 Crisis suits and drones) only managing to kill about 2 Skiitari and 3 Space Marines.
Close Combat Crisis suits that decide it's a good idea to jump right next to some Space Marines and start Kicking and punching them instead of shooting, with one of them armed with a power-khopesh sword.
Dozens of Hammerheads, Devilfish, Battlesuits, Hundreds of Firewarriors and other things being sacrificed by the Tau in a diversion attack
2 Predators taking out over a dozen Tau Skimmers
Dozens of Tau tanks being destroyed by the Imperial Guard like they are nothing, with hardly any losses to the Guardsmen.
Plenty of hints that an Ethereal has some sort of mind control powers that even work on humans
An Ethereal having some sort of magic touch that makes pain go away (it works in humans)
A Pathfinder suddenly becoming a Fire Warrior
A Bonding Knife being called an Honour Blade and being used as a melee weapon
Tau chest armour doing nothing against what is pretty much a sharp stick (a crutch with a sharpened edge)
Tau Helmets doing nothing against being hit on the head with a crutch
Kroot and Vespid are apparently expendable, despite the Tau not even considering drones as expendable
Battlesuits doing nothing against bolter rounds, even though they should offer some protection
Battlesuits and Stealth suits that for some reason decide not to use their jump packs to get away from close combat and would rather stay and try to punch space marines
Pulse rifles doing NOTHING against power armour
Tau having red blood
A female fire warrior has normal feet, instead of hooves
I think it also had two batons the Ethereals have being called Honour Blades.
Space Marines stealing Tetras and using them to sneak past Drone sentry Towers.
The Tau don't realize the Imperial Guard are blowing up bridges, even though they already destroyed 1, so they cross it and it gets blown up as they cross.
Several times the book calls the Tau over confident and has them make assumptions that cause them to take quite a few losses (such as thinking a Squad of Space Marine scouts is just an Imperial Guard spotter team so they only send 4 Tetras against them)
The Female pathfinder that seems to really like close combat - using an Eviscerator and later on using her bonding knife (called an honour blade in the book) to repeatedly stab someone because she is angry.
Ethereal Guards being absolutely useless (and for some reason 1 of them is the female pathfinder) and can't take down 3 unarmed civilians, one of which is very old.
For some reason half of the Tau plan involves getting the Imperial Governor to join them. He was going to (although the book says it's because of mind control by the Ethereal that he considers it) but then he realises the Tau are holding guns and decides they are evil. Later on the Tau try again and he decides he will actually join them, although again he decides they are actually evil, so they forcibly kidnap him with a knife to his throat, even though at this point he is no longer governor and isn't any more important than anyone else. The book tries really hard to make the Tau look bad, can't have anything non-imperial look good!
Oh, and it also has Space Marines actually crying.
It is a terrible book .
I love it, it describes Tau pretty well.
The book getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 13:00:32
Getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Same was with Imperial Guard in IA3:Taros Campaign, never did I heard from Tau fans that anything was wrong with how the Guard was presented there.
In the same way I don't see anything wrong with Tau represented in this book.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Same was with Imperial Guard in IA3:Taros Campaign, never did I heard from Tau fans that anything was wrong with how the Guard was presented there.
In the same way I don't see anything wrong with Tau represented in this book.
Huge differance
In IA3 (which only hurts your backside since the xenos actually won) the IG fight well and are represented as a brave and determined foe, but are failed by their higher command, (which happens both in RL and in various books) to a book that take liberties with a established points of a race or group.
One side will win one will lose and usually its not due to the guys on the ground but the top of the chain, there are plenty of books where the IoM triumphs over all and such, suck it up and move on.
Remeber the side that wins in a battle is the one that makes the fewest mistakes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 00:33:13
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: the IG fight well and are represented as a brave and determined foe.
Are you kidding me?
The only Regiment who fought well were Elysian 23'rd and they were wiped out by overwhelming Tau force.
Reading that book was like reading bad Tau fanfiction, ok Tau has won and I respect that - they had good strategies, they had superior air support and shiny new toys.
But the Imperials described there acted like they were slowed - even Space Marines. The only good part of the book was at the very end where entire Tau force charged at retreating Guardsmen and they were pushed back by a single Raptors company.
If we compare the Guard in Vraks and Guard in Taros it's like comparing two different universes.
I am sorry, Taros was maybe good to show new fancy Tau toys and strategies but they completely ruined the Guard there not to mention they made Astartes to look like they are lazy.
Completely and utter rubbish, but on the bright side I liked how they represented that Tau. Sending all surviving Guardsmen to work in Taros mines until they die... the true representation of the Grater Good.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
It was an awful book. Excuse the outcome or the battle descriptions the sheer lore innacuracies made it obvious that the author had not researched the Tau at all beyond looking at the catalog of units on gameworkshop's website.
Some people would call any book on Tau well written, as long as it bashes, humiliates and insults the Tau race with no respect for official background. Realism is only accepted if it bows to ideology. But let's not feed the troll any further.
Typical Kroothawk, calling troll anyone who disagree his view on Tau... in that case you must wonder who troll really is, no
In that case, why didn't you 2 just recommend him to play "Fire Warrior" video game? To you two there is probably nothing wrong with how fluff and Tau are represented there, right?
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Only going to say this once, keep your suggestions as to what other people should do, to yourself.
And as to recomending a computer game for Lore on a tabletop game is kinda stupid, since the only thing these games truly have in common is names and images, endings, background and all are created by different companies for differing needs, but hey think and believe what you want, the OP wanted sources and thats what we provided, you on the other hand are a troll.
Good day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 12:50:07
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Typical Kroothawk, calling troll anyone who disagree his view on Tau... in that case you must wonder who troll really is, no
In that case, why didn't you 2 just recommend him to play "Fire Warrior" video game? To you two there is probably nothing wrong with how fluff and Tau are represented there, right?
Nothing wrong with how all the races are portrayed in Dawn of War either, right? Everyone knows Space Marine bolters need dozens of bullets to take down anything. It's a video game, it's not going to be completely accurate because of gameplay reasons.
It seems like you just really hate the Tau. Half the things i mentioned are completely inaccurate and show the Graham doesn't know much about the tau, even if you don't like them.
Getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Same was with Imperial Guard in IA3:Taros Campaign, never did I heard from Tau fans that anything was wrong with how the Guard was presented there.
In the same way I don't see anything wrong with Tau represented in this book.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: the IG fight well and are represented as a brave and determined foe.
Are you kidding me?
The only Regiment who fought well were Elysian 23'rd and they were wiped out by overwhelming Tau force.
Reading that book was like reading bad Tau fanfiction, ok Tau has won and I respect that - they had good strategies, they had superior air support and shiny new toys.
But the Imperials described there acted like they were slowed - even Space Marines. The only good part of the book was at the very end where entire Tau force charged at retreating Guardsmen and they were pushed back by a single Raptors company.
If we compare the Guard in Vraks and Guard in Taros it's like comparing two different universes.
I am sorry, Taros was maybe good to show new fancy Tau toys and strategies but they completely ruined the Guard there not to mention they made Astartes to look like they are lazy.
Completely and utter rubbish, but on the bright side I liked how they represented that Tau. Sending all surviving Guardsmen to work in Taros mines until they die... the true representation of the Grater Good.
IA3 mentions nothing about the working conditions. It just says they work in the mines. No one complains about it because there is nothing wrong with the way the Guard are represented in that book.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/23 13:24:19
Kroothawk wrote: 7.) Andy Hoare has written 3 novels about the Damocles Crusade: "Rogue Star", "Star of Damocles" and "Savage Scars". Not much info on Tau in the first two books (don't remember much, not a good sign). The third one is classic bolter porn: Space marines invade a Tau home planet. Tau defend themselves, a Space Marine gets killed, the main character avenges him. Tau are characterised in two ways: Those that splatter in a ranged attack and those that splatter in close combat. If you like Tau, forget all three.
8.) Graham McNeill: "Courage and Honour". Also classic bolter porn without any logic. Plot: A Tau army of orbital drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge crossing a river, yeah, that stupid. Space Marine wants to drive a Tau vehicle, has no manual so eats the brain of the driver (also stupid, but sadly canon). If you like tau, forget this book.
Oh God, this. The first two books are about a Rogue Trader family trying to win back their riches by opening up opportunities of trade with a couple of feuding planetary governors and their new xenos allies. They fight each other over new weapons and technology, turns our Rogue Traders have power armour and magic rings that shoot lasers and flames. The Tau are so far in the background as to be invisible. There's a couple of space battles where Tau are feared because of their rail weaponry but that's pretty much it. I can't remember much else.
Savage Scars is ridiculous. A White Scars veteran sergeant is suddenly a prominent member of the council running the entire crusade - yes, a grunt at the very top of the command hierarchy. This council is a paltry sum - a mere fraction of what the actual ruling body would need to be to run this thing. Then again, the "crusade" itself is so paltry as to become laughable, and representative of Hoare's complete and utter lack of any sense of proper scale in the 40K 'verse. Something which is highlighted further when an entire planetfall campaign is pretty much won by a handful of SM squads (yes, that's squads - five or six marines) who drop down into a field and fight a skirmish against a group of Fire Warriors, a sentry tower, and a couple of stealth drones. Wow, and I thought assaulting a planet would be difficult, or at least take a while... Oh, and then the White Scars sergeant succumbs to a berserker-rage fit whenever a team of Crisis Suites turn up, allowing him to jump on them and start tearing through their armour with his hands (yes, this is actually what happens). And the White Scars? Apparently Hoare knows as little about them as he does about the Tau, or military campaigns in general. Here I was thinking they were going to be a lightening-strike force, experts at hit-and-run tactics using bikes and speeders... nope, apparently they're just foot-slogging, plasma-cannon wielding Blood Angels... in white.
After reading over and over about how good McNeill is in how he treats SMs I decided to give Courage and Honour a go. Oh dear. While not nearly as bad as the Damocles trilogy, it's a long way from being good when it comes to the SM or the Tau. The only parts of the novel I found remotely interesting were the human-based ones. I found the build up to the Tau invasion pretty good and it had me quite excited... but I soon realised what was in store when the Tau are introduced by one of their pathfinder teams being ambushed by a force of SMs. Yes, you read that right: Tau, a race with (apparently) formidably advanced technology sent pathfinders (supposed experts at stealth, tracking, scanning and targeting capability) right into an ambush set up in fields by huge bright blue power-armoured shock troops with heavy weapons emplacements. Not scouts. Not snipers. Not Guard light infantry. Tactical Marines with missile launchers. To say I was a little disappointed with the book is putting it mildly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/23 18:15:33
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
I never read any of those books and seeing some of the descriptions of how SM tore apart suits just makes me cringe.
I actually liked some of the stuff from the RT and Deathwatch games, just because the D10 and D100 system gave a bit of insight into how strong Tau firepower is. Pulse rifles are actually better than sniper rifles and Crisis suits were strong enough to take down several marines from a distance with firepower.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
As someone who is equally fond of both the Tau and the IoM, and as someone who has read both IA3 and Courage and Honour... I can confidently say no, he isn't kidding you. It really is that bad of a book. To compare it with an IA book, some of the better, more realistic (read: believable) material on the 40K 'verse, is laughable.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
Shlazaor wrote: It was an awful book. Excuse the outcome or the battle descriptions the sheer lore innacuracies made it obvious that the author had not researched the Tau at all beyond looking at the catalog of units on gameworkshop's website.
Are you sure McNeill hasn't researched them?
Hint:
Codex Tau, release 2001, first page Impressum:
- Authors / desigm team: Andy Chambers, Pete Haines & Graham McNeill
WD, October 2001, Tau release. Article of the design teams thought process. ( page 18 ).
Culture and language
.... Graham McNeill wrote a lot of fictional text about the Tau , where he ....
Maybe a view upon a faction depends on the time and person, but to go so far to call one of the design team "uneducated" on a faction?
Index xenos of this old WD should be part of the ressources of Tau background. If you are able to deal with changes.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Talking about changes: In 5 weeks a new Tau Codex is rumoured to come, in 4 weeks a new Tau novel. Everything from "now another genocide-happy race" to "immune to Chaos and best buddies with Space Marines" is possible, we will see.
Kroothawk wrote: Talking about changes: In 5 weeks a new Tau Codex is rumoured to come, in 4 weeks a new Tau novel. Everything from "now another genocide-happy race" to "immune to Chaos and best buddies with Space Marines" is possible, we will see.
Kroothawk wrote: Talking about changes: In 5 weeks a new Tau Codex is rumoured to come, in 4 weeks a new Tau novel. Everything from "now another genocide-happy race" to "immune to Chaos and best buddies with Space Marines" is possible, we will see.
5 weeks? really?
If it's six or more we get to take his rumor posting rights.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: In my opinion the IA : 3 Taros campaign is the most comprehensive example of Tau military behavior and reactions, and has a nice realistic feel to the battles, its shame as usual though its mainly from the imperial perspective, but does show some of the better side of the Tau, and their support and backing of allied forces, a good read.
The Taros Campaign is absolute rubbish. Literally every aspect of it is contrived to stack the cards in the Tau's favor, without regards to even trying to make sense or fit with the canon statistics of the various hardware (like markerlights outranging leman russes, and seeker missiles being a reliable way of fighting russes), and one particularly galling instance where an armored column forgets that it's made of tanks mid-paragraph.
Keep in mind that many people hate Tau and think they don't belong into the grimdark 40k setting. So some people call them Nazis, Commies or whatever they hate most. You will also find many made up statements presented as facts there that crumble under closer scrutiny. You have been warned
It's not so much that people hate Tau as that them being magical mary-sues with magical mary-sue technology isn't born out by the fluff. If it were, then they'd be galling and intolerable. As it is the most annoying thing about Tau are the people who tout their spin as being the truth of their fluff. Even with the Imperium, only some of the propaganda is true (like the Emperor literally being a god by the setting's definition of gods), and with the Tau, the details and numbers don't bear out the spin (and if the new codex changes that, go ahead and pray the change makes the official lines more like the details and not the other way around, because see above about the whole mary-sue thing).
Honestly, looking at their fluff in comparison to their official themes or taglines, I can't help but feel they're just one big secret joke: they're not friendly, while proclaiming as vigorously as possible they are, they're entirely ignorant of the setting they inhabit, while purporting to champion reason and discovery, and their tech is primitive and unwieldy beside that of any faction but orks, but they're described as being more advanced because everything they make is pointlessly flashy and overengineered.
The idea of a technologically advanced civilization that fights intelligently is good enough, but 40k already has the Eldar and the IG, so the Tau seem quite redundant as far as the setting is concerned. What's worst is that they, in many respects, seem to occupy almost the same niche that the AdMech should, and so form a rather galling barrier to a far larger and more interesting faction's entrance onto the tabletop.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/25 01:42:09
oh my gosh! GW fluff and descriptions not matching the tabletop stats...stop the presses this is a first in the history of the company and its affiliates.
It's not so much that people hate Tau as that them being magical mary-sues with magical mary-sue technology isn't born out by the fluff. If it were, then they'd be galling and intolerable. As it is the most annoying thing about Tau are the people who tout their spin as being the truth of their fluff. Even with the Imperium, only some of the propaganda is true (like the Emperor literally being a god by the setting's definition of gods), and with the Tau, the details and numbers don't bear out the spin (and if the new codex changes that, go ahead and pray the change makes the official lines more like the details and not the other way around, because see above about the whole mary-sue thing).
Honestly, looking at their fluff in comparison to their official themes or taglines, I can't help but feel they're just one big secret joke: they're not friendly, while proclaiming as vigorously as possible they are, they're entirely ignorant of the setting they inhabit, while purporting to champion reason and discovery, and their tech is primitive and unwieldy beside that of any faction but orks, but they're described as being more advanced because everything they make is pointlessly flashy and overengineered.
Tau? Mary sues? Seriously? Because FW are commonly going on rampages in the fluff and single squads will overthrow entire planets.
It's mentioned nearly every where in the codex that the Tau will be crushed if any faction were to focus on them. They survive because they're viewed as a waste of time and nobody wants to commit the resources when there is a hive fleet next door. That's not Mary sue.
I also don't see how their tech is primitive and unwieldy. Their main rifle is far better than the standard lasgun and even the elite space marine bolter. For a primitive race their Mantas and Tigersharks seem to adept at taking down Imperial titans. It may not be what was available before the turn from technology, but it's not really primitive in the setting. And what other races do they compete with? I wouldn't expect them to be as technologically advanced as ancient skeletal robots that have had far longer to advance, same would go for the Eldar.
The most confusing part is the "Ignorant of the setting they inhabit" They don't break the 4th wall? That's weird? Or perhaps you meant that they don't fall to the grim darkness of the grim dark future. Isn't that part of their story? They're trying to expand and make the galaxy a better place by organizing it under Tau principles? I think that's fine because it's contrasted by the shear improbability of their success. The entire galaxy is a living nightmare and they still continue planning their expansion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/25 01:52:28
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: oh my gosh! GW fluff and descriptions not matching the tabletop stats...stop the presses this is a first in the history of the company and its affiliates.
The issue being the Taros Campaign is a rulebook of sorts, and is one the most gratuitous examples of inconsistency and terrible writing. The only thing it has over Ward's garbage is its grasp of English.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: oh my gosh! GW fluff and descriptions not matching the tabletop stats...stop the presses this is a first in the history of the company and its affiliates.
The issue being the Taros Campaign is a rulebook of sorts, and is one the most gratuitous examples of inconsistency and terrible writing. The only thing it has over Ward's garbage is its grasp of English.
Non of the descriptions effect the rules of the game..no where does the book allow markerlights to out range battlecannons (other than a flavor text) your comparisons are your opinions and fine you hate the book, move on..its your opinion.
If you dislike Tau and its fluff fine, its your right to, but it still is a mystery why persons (such as yourself) feel a need to enter threads concerning a topic that you have no real interest in ( other than dislike) and spout about your said dislike, it adds nothing other than conflict to a discussion, and usually derails it from its OP's intended goal.
There are many parts of the 40k universe I dislike , but feel no urge to go into those threads and berate or attack them, I just comment on what I am intersted in and avoid those I am not.
Unless it just brings you joy to expouse how much you hate something, in which case I honestly feel sorry for you.
This kind of reactions here on Dakka is precisely what Kroothawk was warning the OP about.
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau? Mary sues? Seriously? Because
FW are commonly going on rampages in the fluff and single squads will overthrow entire planets.
It's mentioned nearly every where in the codex that the Tau will be crushed if any faction were to focus on them. They survive because they're viewed as a waste of time and nobody wants to commit the resources when there is a hive fleet next door. That's not Mary sue.
Did I not say, specifically, that they're not Mary-Sues? If their taglines and spin were representative of their fluff, they would be, and the image of them as touted by their fans is entirely Mary-Sue, but the fluff is rather at odds with these things.
I also don't see how their tech is primitive and unwieldy. Their main rifle is far better than the standard lasgun and even the elite space marine bolter. For a primitive race their Mantas and Tigersharks seem to adept at taking down Imperial titans. It may not be what was available before the turn from technology, but it's not really primitive in the setting. And what other races do they compete with? I wouldn't expect them to be as technologically advanced as ancient skeletal robots that have had far longer to advance, same would go for the Eldar.
The lasgun is the perfect mass infantry weapon, being cheap, ridiculously reliable, and logistically trivial. How does a pulse rifle line up with that? How long can a group of fire warriors operate with absolutely no resupply or support? Considering the pulse rifle is just an oversized and underpowered plasma gun, I can't imagine it's too easy on its ammo, or too reliable in long service. Battlesuits are just crude, bulky power armor with more primitive control systems. And so on.
The most confusing part is the "Ignorant of the setting they inhabit" They don't break the 4th wall? That's weird? Or perhaps you meant that they don't fall to the grim darkness of the grim dark future. Isn't that part of their story? They're trying to expand and make the galaxy a better place by organizing it under Tau principles? I think that's fine because it's contrasted by the shear improbability of their success. The entire galaxy is a living nightmare and they still continue planning their expansion.
They're Flat Earth Atheists. They're completely unaware of the nature of their world, disbelieving in war entities and psyker, and being hopelessly niave in dealing with other sapient species.
If you dislike Tau and its fluff fine, its your right to, but it still is a mystery why persons (such as yourself) feel a need to enter threads concerning a topic that you have no real interest in ( other than dislike) and spout about your said dislike, it adds nothing other than conflict to a discussion, and usually derails it from its OP's intended goal.
There are many parts of the 40k universe I dislike , but feel no urge to go into those threads and berate or attack them, I just comment on what I am intersted in and avoid those I am not.
Unless it just brings you joy to expouse how much you hate something, in which case I honestly feel sorry for you.
This kind of reactions here on Dakka is precisely what Kroothawk was warning the OP about.
You know, I could have sworn I refuted that silly "people just hate Tau" thing. In fact, I could swear it was dead in the middle of my first post in the thread...
The Tau, as they are, are just fine. What's not is painting them as the Mary-Sues their spin would have them be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/25 02:38:55
And what poster has painted them as a mary-sue ( dear god that term is overused here ), or was this something from another thread or Dakka wide, or in the depths of the internet.
Any fan of something can become guilty of doing the above when talking about something they enjoy..it happens.
And as to your comparison of lasgun to pulse rifle, the IG and Tau fight war is different ways, IG throw lives away the same as ammo, and have a raise a regiment , forget about it until folding it into another regiment response to logistics (due to the overwhelming size of the IoM.
The Tau fight a fluid doctrine with a empasis on conserving their forces so long sustained attrition is not in their combat style (more of a modern concept)
Is ether better, no and yes, depends on the battlefield, empire and situation.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And what poster has painted them as a mary-sue ( dear god that term is overused here ), or was this something from another thread or Dakka wide, or in the depths of the internet.
It was more a refutation of kroothawk's warning about anti-Tau sentiment. People don't have a problem with the Tau overall, it's the extremely Mary-Sue faction taglines or spin (I'm getting annoyed that I have to keep repeating those words, but I can't think of a better term for the "officially stated theme" and related bits) being taken at their word, without regard to the fluff proper. Of course, this whole line of discussion is rather off topic, I just found the warning about Tau-haters a bit too galling to let stand uncontested.
And as to your comparison of lasgun to pulse rifle, the IG and Tau fight war is different ways, IG throw lives away the same as ammo, and have a raise a regiment , forget about it until folding it into another regiment response to logistics (due to the overwhelming size of the IoM.
The Tau fight a fluid doctrine with a empasis on conserving their forces so long sustained attrition is not in their combat style (more of a modern concept)
Is ether better, no and yes, depends on the battlefield, empire and situation.
The point was that, technically speaking, the lasgun is the more sophisticated piece of engineering, not that pulse rifles aren't appropriate to any situation. The Tau's needs in a combat situation are far different than the Imperium's, so the Tau's fielding of large numbers of pricier gear, that's somewhat bulkier and less resilient than its Imperial counterparts, shouldn't be taken as a matter of being more advanced, only less pressed for massive quantities of gear and with shorter supply lines.
You make a great deal of assumptions on the Tau economy, we have no idea how much it takes in resources of the Tau empire to build a pulse rifle, battlesuit or pair of trousers, comparisons of scale are only valid when facts are known , and GW releases no hard facts just suposition.
On another site it was advanced that the tau firewarrior backpack has two slots for the recharging of the pulse rifles energy cells, since it kinda looked that way on the model, no fluff to support just a speculation, and frankly is as valid as any discussion on how much it cost to build a imaginary weapon by a imaginary space race.
Technically speaking (and only citing game stats since its the only ruler for comparison we have in this case) a pulse rifle out ranges, out powers and out penetrates a lasgun (by all stats) and is a standard weapon in their military, the laws of logistics are irrelevant in saying something
is more advanced tech-wise, but is relevant when deciding what is a better peice of kit for a OP.
And as to robustness and bulk, its long and slim, and the las rifle is blocky and medium length, the models likely do not give proper dimesions, since all GW minis make the weapons really out of scale, for the rule of cool, likely the pulse carbine is the Tau CQB weapon of coice when the battle gets tight.
for all we know of the Tau economy all its goods could be churned out of a drone ran factory at a prodigious rate, its only the lack of Tau to fill boots that limits their battlefield footprint, again we have no facts, other than game stats in this regard.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/25 03:38:57
How are the Tau Mary Sues? They are a race of short lived, focused people. They didn't have the same issues that stunted humanities development and advanced quickly compared to other races.
Now a Mary Sue would be someone that's the best of the best becoming a Space Marine, and not just any Space Marine. A Grey Knight! Then managing to run a one man war against deamonic forces from inside the warp.
I don't think you understand what the term Mary Sue means.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
I understand his point Savageconvoy, its not that he is saying the fluff makes them mary-sues, it that he feels FANS of the tau interpert the fluff in mary-suness (dont even know if thats a word ) ways, and this is the reason for negative tau reponses.
He just stated it in his post in a way that was not to clear.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant! 
(though I admit that I forgot some of the bad stuff). It is the same author that let Fulgrim choke an Eldar Avatar to death that doesn't even breath! Sadly, McNeill once was the second best 
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
), or was this something from another thread or Dakka wide, or in the depths of the internet.