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Yeah, "death before dishonor" is worthy of criticism in all cultures and all times because it is a dehumanizing instrument of violent power. It makes people into tools, from ends into means. How can you type dulce et decorum without irony? As Owen wrote, it is "the old Lie." Is there something ennobling about combat? -- think of those corpse piles in the mud of the Somme and ask yourself about honor. As to 40k, the GrimDark is not grim and dark because war makes us better.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, "death before dishonor" is worthy of criticism in all cultures and all times because it is a dehumanizing instrument of violent power. It makes people into tools, from ends into means. How can you type dulce et decorum without irony? As Owen wrote, it is "the old Lie." Is there something ennobling about combat? -- think of those corpse piles in the mud of the Somme and ask yourself about honor. As to 40k, the GrimDark is not grim and dark because war makes us better.

It has only been dehumanizing in the context of mechanized or massed combat. The concept of individual warrior honor in many cultures derives ultimately from a more ancient time when it was about individual prowess in individual match ups. In such circumstances, for those warriors, yes there is ennobling through combat, when their physical strength or skill directly translated into societal standing, and thus indirectly too to their own access to resources or mates. One can see this in tribal societies, like the practice of coup counting for example. That is why some of the earliest tensions in ancient history was between the need for military discipline and the individual warrior's striving for honor/glory.

The context in which one views the concept of honor will affect whether it is viewed as ridiculous or as something worthy of sacrificing for. People have always done things in the names of ideals, causes, or for the sake of their reputations and standing among their peers even when such things appeared to make no sense if viewed purely from a perspective of material or physical well-being.

Death before dishonor is something touted by generals and leaders, safely to the rear of any fighting.

But to be honest in the 40k universe there are very, very few races that can be surrendered to or taken prisoner by , that will not end in a even more gruesome end...so might as well fight to the death.

Iracundus wrote:
It has only been dehumanizing in the context of mechanized or massed combat.

You're the one saying the Imperial Japanese army of WWII should be judged in the same light as the Spartans. In any case, the Tau are much closer to a WWII-era army than the warriors of ancient Greece. "Shattered Jade" in the Tau context isn't as sinister as it would be in a human context, simply because I'm not sure that an individual alien life is worth that much. Maybe the Firewarriors are correct and there's is truly but to do and die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
But to be honest in the 40k universe there are very, very few races that can be surrendered to or taken prisoner by , that will not end in a even more gruesome end...so might as well fight to the death.

Paradoxically, the Tau may be the only force that one can surrender to and have any hope of a better fate than death.

Yup, although their enemies don't return the favor, its one of the only points that even the most feverish IoM fanatic cannot dispute, the Tau will actually accept surrenders, and even allow the withdrawal of enemy forces, its actually one of their traits that attracted me the most to their fluff.

 Manchu wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
It has only been dehumanizing in the context of mechanized or massed combat.

You're the one saying the Imperial Japanese army of WWII should be judged in the same light as the Spartans. In any case, the Tau are much closer to a WWII-era army than the warriors of ancient Greece. "Shattered Jade" in the Tau context isn't as sinister as it would be in a human context, simply because I'm not sure that an individual alien life is worth that much. Maybe the Firewarriors are correct and there's is truly but to do and die.

Indeed the Japanese should be judged in the same light as the Spartans. They both died fighting for their nation, and viewed dishonor as a fate worse than death. The Spartans fought in massed combat, as did the Japanese army. Both had examples of suicidal last stands that accomplished no significant military goal. If the actions of the one can be criticized, then so should the other. Or conversely, if the actions of one can be praised then so should the other. There shouldn't be a double standard. The context of the other actions of the combatants such as the mistreatment of civilians or prisoners is not at discussion here, just the specific fact of whether fighting to the last instead of surrendering is praiseworthy or not.

Neither of their situations matches the sort of low scale tribal combat in which the concepts of individual warrior prowess and honor first emerged.

If one views the "shattered jade" as sinister, it would be sinister regardless of whether it is a Tau life or a human life. Both are sentient organisms with similar psyches, just different societal structures.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yup, although their enemies don't return the favor, its one of the only points that even the most feverish IoM fanatic cannot dispute, the Tau will actually accept surrenders, and even allow the withdrawal of enemy forces, its actually one of their traits that attracted me the most to their fluff.

The Eldar have from time to time accepted surrenders, though that is entirely determinate on their commander. An example is given in the Eldar Codex of a corsair accepting a human surrender and even transporting the humans to a safe location off the Maiden world the Eldar were after.

In any case, we're talking about Tau. And Shlazaor had it right that this is another one of those could-be-good-could-be-bad points.

I liked the bit where the Tau tried to reverse-engineer Ork tractor beam tech to little success because of how nutters Ork tech intrinsically is.

The only WW2 units I could associate the Tau with are the Japanese Rikusentai (SNLF) because they combine elements of marine forces, paratroopers, infantry, and tanks and armor; as well as fanatical discipline and a stunning level of combined arms. Stylistically, their armor is distinctively Asian, and they even have mecha, but their tanks look more 1950's French than anything else:



Too bad the Hammerhead doesn't have a true oscillating turret complete with an autoloader than can deliver burst damage, like the Dire Avengers bladestorm.

Anyways, has anyone read Peter Fehervari's Fire Caste? I've heard bad reviews for most of the other Tau books published this year, but haven't heard much about this one; the one or two reviews I found on a quick google search seemed to suggest it was pretty good.

Xyrael wrote:
Anyways, has anyone read Peter Fehervari's Fire Caste? I've heard bad reviews for most of the other Tau books published this year, but haven't heard much about this one; the one or two reviews I found on a quick google search seemed to suggest it was pretty good.

I am working myself though all Tau novels and short stories released this year. Short evaluation:

1.) The Greater Good: waste of time for both Tau and Ciaphas Cain fans. Nothing new, nothing brilliant, nothing enjoyable. And esp. no tau presence except a small fight at the beginning before the plot starts. Disappointing, as Sandy Mitchell has written maybe the best Tau novel: For the Emperor.
2.) Fire Caste: A brilliant complex novel first of all. Apocalypse Now meets Predator meets HH Legion. It is mainly an IG novel, but there are small fights against Vespids and Kroot and a big end battle against Tau. All enjoyable with small bits of info. There are two eBooks (one of 6 pages, one of 20 pages) by the same author, I have bought both but not yet read them. The first one definitely explores one of the Tau characters in the Fire Caste book, a female officer, the second one follows a Water caste member in the same area it seems. More when I have read them.
3.) Shadowsun: short novel of about 120 pages, hardcover, mailorder only, expensive. Average quality, but completely written from Shadowsun's perspective. Worth reading if you are a Tau fan, maybe not so much if not. Describes a small episode where she crash lands on an Imperial planet. Tau are a bit too emotional for my taste, as tau should not feed the warp that much. But then again, there is no ethereal in sight, in any of the products described so far.
4.) Still to read: The Patient Hunter: small eBook of 20 pages on a riptide pilot.

I see some people have been talking about last stands and so forth...interesting, but to compare it to fluff, in this Codex the Tau don't often go in for that. Page 23:

"...Tau attribute no dishonour to prudent retreat and perceive last stands as incompetent defeats or the last refuge of an unimaginative Commander."

I think the idea of a "worthy sacrifice" would be something the Tau would admire only in the most exceptional circumstances, when absolutely every other possibility has been exhausted.

Something else I really like about this book: the lack of "derp" moments in the fluff. None of that ridiculous "LOL they held a welcome party for Necrons" kind of stuff. I think some writers use the Tau's status as realtive "newcomers" to mean that they also should act like wide-eyed naifs when it comes to first contact. In the new book they seem much more pragmatic.

Also, check out the "Lagan System" fluff on page 29...I find it somewhat surprising that the Chapter mentioned is the Ultramarines, as they hardly come off as the good guys there.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Tau are a bit too emotional for my taste, as tau should not feed the warp that much.

Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.

Have now read the two short stories by the author of Fire Caste.

Out Caste is 2 print pages on the major Tau officer of Fire Caste, describing her carrer before coming to this planet, including a decisive moment (can't say more without sppoilering). Okay reading for 2 pages. Bit info from Tau perspective.

A Sancurary of Wyrms is 9 print pages playing on the planet just before the book, featuring the above tau officer and a young female Water caste member on expedition. Very nice on the same level as the book. Gives some extra info on the planet, funny to see some well known things from a Tau perspective. Also as suspenseful as the novel. Recommended!

Both should be read after the novel though.

 Manchu wrote:
Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.

I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.

I have never been one for much BL stuff, but may give these a go on your recommendation kroothawk, I need some new stuff to read while the snow keeps falling

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I have never been one for much BL stuff, but may give these a go on your recommendation kroothawk

Same here. I'd dismissed Fire Caste on a couple of reviews I'd read saying it was merely yet another Guard novel (and therefore of little interest to Tau fans). But I'll be looking into it more now, as well as the ebooks.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.

I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.

My understanding is that it's like stirring soup. You can make stirring motions in the air but nothing's going on in the soup until you put the spoon in. The Tau either don't have a spoon in the soup or they're just grazing the skim.

Oddly enough, "skimming the surface" is also how Tau FTL is described.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.

I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.

My understanding is that it's like stirring soup. You can make stirring motions in the air but nothing's going on in the soup until you put the spoon in. The Tau either don't have a spoon in the soup or they're just grazing the skim.

Good analogy lol. Tau have emotions but they aren't tied to the Warp. However, if their species mutated and began to produce psykers....that could change.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I have to read through the Codex again.
But ATM the only WFT Bloodtide moment for me was one small tidbit on earth caste:

Spoiler:

They accidentally create a super nove while trying to create an energy source. Then they experiment using that super novas as weapons to destroy planetary systems. Doesn't fit Tau mentality at all IMHO.

Considering the threat of the tyranids it might actually be "best" to super-nova a sun to wipe out a big portion of a feeding swarmfleet than simply let them float over to the next buffe- system.

What if the reason farsight is so long lived and able to disobey an Ethereal is because he is the child of a male ethereal and female firecaste? So maybe he inherited his fathers longevity and immunity to pheramones. But he doesn't bare it physical scars.
Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.

Have read the "Patient Hunter" ebooklet. Gets the reward for first mindless railgun-porn. Shortly introduces a few Imperial tank crews and kills them in one paragraph, by a Riptide this time. Not sure if Tau gamers waited for something like that.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.

You are really missing the golden age of bloody civil war and self destruction that almost destroyed the Tau race, right? BTW there is no absolute mind control in the new Codex. Sorry.

Yes there is, in the ethereal entry.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes there is, in the ethereal entry.

You mean the part where they say that Imperials couldn't find any evidence despite running several tests?
Then read again the part where ethereals ended the age of Mont'au. Esp. the part where it took the ethereals several days to convince the (future) Fire caste members.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What if the reason farsight is so long lived and able to disobey an Ethereal is because he is the child of a male ethereal and female firecaste? So maybe he inherited his fathers longevity and immunity to pheramones. But he doesn't bare it physical scars.
Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.

What I assume Farsight's longevity implies is that perhaps the short lives of the Tau are imposed secretly by the Ethereals... The only ones other than Farsight and his enclave to live so long, unless you're like Shadowsun whom the Ethereals really like.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes there is, in the ethereal entry.

You mean the part where they say that Imperials couldn't find any evidence despite running several tests?
Then read again the part where ethereals ended the age of Mont'au. Esp. the part where it took the ethereals several days to convince the (future) Fire caste members.

I think the fact that Ethereals infiltrated a camp and where immediatly taken to a commander when asked shows they do have some control over tau.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.

I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.

My understanding is that it's like stirring soup. You can make stirring motions in the air but nothing's going on in the soup until you put the spoon in. The Tau either don't have a spoon in the soup or they're just grazing the skim.

Ya, a full blown Pariah can be a highly emotional person for example. It has nothing to do with how emotional you are but rather just your natural biology.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think the fact that Ethereals infiltrated a camp and where immediatly taken to a commander when asked shows they do have some control over tau.

When Obama comes to a camp, he is also led to the commander immediately. Doesn't mean he mind controls humans by pheromones.
Also read further, where (future) Fire Caste members consider the Ethereals proposals for quite some time before agreeing.
Charisma and good arguments are not the same as mind control.

But the President is already in charge ...

Charisma alone does not explain how quickly the Ethereals ended Mont'au.

I don't believe it was mind control. Frankly, I think the whole account is pseudo-mythical propaganda.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Have read the "Patient Hunter" ebooklet. Gets the reward for first mindless railgun-porn. Shortly introduces a few Imperial tank crews and kills them in one paragraph, by a Riptide this time. Not sure if Tau gamers waited for something like that.

But of course. What better way to increase sales of the newest, shiniest toy?

 Kroothawk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.

You are really missing the golden age of bloody civil war and self destruction that almost destroyed the Tau race, right? BTW there is no absolute mind control in the new Codex. Sorry.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes there is, in the ethereal entry.

 Kroothawk wrote:
You mean the part where they say that Imperials couldn't find any evidence despite running several tests?
Then read again the part where ethereals ended the age of Mont'au. Esp. the part where it took the ethereals several days to convince the (future) Fire caste members.

Not only that, but it was never absolute.

It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes, as loyalty to the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving. If an Ethereal were of such a mind, he could order another Tau to kill himself and would be obeyed immediately. The Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Arbites are very interested in this aspect of Tau culture...

- Codex Tau (Chambers, A., Haines, P. and McNeill, G., 2001)

Key word is "speculated". Another key observation is that it's old Imperials sat around a table stroking their beards, trying to justify to their narrow-thinking, xenophobic minds why aliens are loyal to an ideal that doesn't center around their God-Emperor. Of course! It must be brainwashing!*

*Note: it may very well be brainwashing. After all, are not the denizens of the Imperium brainwashed by the Imperial Cult? Yes. Does that mean it's pheromones or mind control? Nope. Just good, old fashioned religious zealotry.

But for some reason, Imperial cult and zealotry of the Imperium are somehow considered worse than similar case with Tau. It's a personal trend that I have observed in people.

I would argue that Tau's totalitarian regime is worse one than Imperium's. You see, Imperial cult very rarely are interested in your personal life beyond certain things like religion and your loyalties. Rest is left for you to decide. You can practically marry with whatever you want. You can work whatever you want (with a reason of course). You can spend your free time as you want. While Tau on the other hand seem to be shackled in this aspect. They have a caste system which is symbolic tyranny. They are forced into certain aspect of work. And the nature of "Greater good" and Tau's tendencies implies to me that even their personal lifes are restricted.