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So, looking at Black Templars with 6th edition out, and I'm worried on what to run. I've thought of a basic 1000pt list, but I have a few questions:

1. Is mixing Bolters w/ Bolt pistols and chainswords a good idea? Or should it be kept to one or the other?

2. Is Accept Any Challenge still the best choice on a Champion?

3. Would taking a Techmarine on an Aegis defense line be good anti-air? Or should I just ignore the flyers and kill everything else?

4. Transports. Drop pods, Rhinos, or Razor backs? What units merit enough worth to put in a Land Raider?

5. Terminators? Yey or ney? And if Yey, which one is better? What loadouts work best?

6. Equipment. Is a Power Sword, Meltabombs, and a Meltagun still a good setup on a Crusader squad, without doing that Las/plas squad? (I honestly do not really like that setup)

7. Whats a good setup for the Marshal? Is it still a Lightning Claw, and Storm Shield?

Go ahead and throw in your input.

First thing to consider, and I say this a lot.
Unfortunately, Black Templars is one of the most dated codexes right now. Way down there with Tau.

As such, most of their options just don't perform, and often not in the ways you'd expect, given their theme overall.

Most people will recommend that you have to take your army, according to an ideology that sits out side of the common realm (for Templars, anyway). That is, shooting, over melee.

What you have to consider, is do you want to WAAC, win some games, or play for fun. This will effect the overall flow of your force drastically, imho.

I'll try my best to answer your questions with my somewhat limited knowledge and experiences.

1. Mixing bolters and bolt pistol/chainsword is probably not a good idea. Occasionally we see it for "versatility", in mobile squads. To be honest, crusader squads are so mediocre these days, that I don't think it will make a huge difference anyway. Generally speaking, most people would say minimally sized squads with bolters, special/heavy weapons are the way to go.

2. For a melee focused force, I want to say yes. Abhor, and Suffer are the other common ones.

3. A techmarine, behind a defense line is not good, or reliable anti air. At most it threatens one unit a turn. This just isn't up to snuff, when your opponent can run 2+ flyers at any given time, a la Guard, Chaos, Necrons especially. I would only consider the techmarine a solid choice, if you wanted to maybe run some crusader squads and armor behind that defence line as well, vindicators maybe.

4. For transports, I think drop pods are technically illegal right now, but a semi-common choice for more advanced players' competitive lists. Rhinos are OK, if shunned in this edition. Useless really for CCW/BP crusader squads. Razorbacks are just really pricey. Land Raiders are great for command squad or terminator death stars.

5. 5x TDA termies, with 2x Cyclones/Assault Cannon and tank hunters is a must take for most players. Likewise a big unit of assault terminators with a character (chaplain) in a land raider will roll through pretty much anything in the game. Its a lot of eggs in one basket though, and requires some focused list building for synchronism.

6. It can be. This is more a matter of personal taste, and what the rest of your force looks like. If you're taking crusader squads as BP/CCW, at that point, focusing on anti infantry I would say either PW/PF and flamer. Meltaguns if you really need the AT.

7. Something like that. Depends on what you want him to do. Chaplains are a better choice overall for a melee force. Marshalls if you really want that LD10 or run a shooting army.

Your best bet is to look around, do some research. Check out tactics threads and army lists on warseer, and bolter and chainsword.

Your best bet with templars, I can say is to start small. Take your time and be prepared to come in behind the curb of 6th edition meta.

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
So, looking at Black Templars with 6th edition out, and I'm worried on what to run. I've thought of a basic 1000pt list, but I have a few questions:

1. Is mixing Bolters w/ Bolt pistols and chainswords a good idea? Or should it be kept to one or the other?

2. Is Accept Any Challenge still the best choice on a Champion?

3. Would taking a Techmarine on an Aegis defense line be good anti-air? Or should I just ignore the flyers and kill everything else?

4. Transports. Drop pods, Rhinos, or Razor backs? What units merit enough worth to put in a Land Raider?

5. Terminators? Yey or ney? And if Yey, which one is better? What loadouts work best?

6. Equipment. Is a Power Sword, Meltabombs, and a Meltagun still a good setup on a Crusader squad, without doing that Las/plas squad? (I honestly do not really like that setup)

7. Whats a good setup for the Marshal? Is it still a Lightning Claw, and Storm Shield?

Go ahead and throw in your input.

WELCOME TO THE ETERNAL CRUSADE BROTHER. Im pretty much the Unofficial BT Chaplain around here, just check out how many Templar players have my quotes in their sigs. That should give you a inkling of the RIGHTEOUS ZEAL I have at my command.

Alright, RP bs aside. Youll be in for a challenge if you play BT. Thats exactly why I picked them in fact. Youll take a while to figure out how to play and win, but if you play right, you WILL win. Always play to their strengths. Unfortunately, they are going to be hurting around 1000 points with a mandatory EC and having to take a Warlord. 1500 and up is when they start to pull even with other armies. And take into account we are getting the Stormraven on the 18th; that is going to be a HUGE buff for BT and I have no doubt youll see a lot more boys in black coming out of the woodwork.

1) Never mix CC and Bolters. One squad should run CC/BP, a Power Axe, and a Flamer. Maybe a Melta if youre facing a lot of armor. Shooting squad should run a ML and Plasma. Las against armor.

2) AAC is pretty much the go-to Vow. But you have to be SMART to set up those charges to ensure you get the bonus. You NEED a Chaplain in your CC squad, with 3 Servitors, to get max Zeal moves and give you the ability to Zeal towards ANY enemy rather than the original shooter. This will get you into cover and setup fake out charges on enemies who may try to charge you next turn. Zig zag!!! Its what wins my games. My CC Crusader squad is a nightmare, especially a full Black Tide. People dont worry about it until they realize I know exactly what Im doing and wipe their foot troops out. Suffer Not is decent if you dont think youre gonna get charges.

3) Aegis + Techmarine in your shooty squad is pretty decent. Have him Signum the Bolter Intiate manning the Quad and youll probably pop something. With a harness and combi-plasma hes no shooty slouch either. However I wouldnt bother unless youre facing a flyer-heavy army. Putting him a a Black Tide is an absolute nightmare of Power Knuckles in dirty heretic faces; unfortunately those points are better spent elsewhere. But hes fun.

4) Most transports Id say use your points elsewhere. A Razorback is decent fire support for a Shooty squad holding objectives. Have them go to ground if they lose a man to stay on the objective. An LRC can be decent for a CC Crusader squad and mandatory for a Assault Termi squad. But dont bring them out til 1500+

5) Always bring shooty Termis. CMLx2 is probably the most versatile. Not that AssCans are bad; I have em but down use em. Tank Hunters. Light armor and massed infantry can suck it. Deep strike em behind enemy lines for a good distraction. Bigger games you can get the Assault Termis out. TH/SS x2 and LC x3. With a TDA Chaplain in an LRC. Deathstar. Suck it.

6) Answered earlier. I only bring a minimum shooting squad and use them for objectives. People are too worried about my CC squad, CC Initiates, shooty Terminators, and Typhoons to care about the shooting squad. TYPHOONS BRING TWO NO MATTER WHAT!!!!! Use em like snipers and sacrifice them on heavy armor with the Multi Melta.

7) Marshall? TH/SS. But I wouldnt bother. The benefits from a Chaplain in a large CC blob far outweighs the benefits of a Marshall.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

WELCOME TO THE ETERNAL CRUSADE BROTHER. Im pretty much the Unofficial BT Chaplain around here, just check out how many Templar players have my quotes in their sigs. That should give you a inkling of the RIGHTEOUS ZEAL I have at my command.

Yeah, about that...

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

1) Never mix CC and Bolters. One squad should run CC/BP, a Power Axe, and a Flamer. Maybe a Melta if youre facing a lot of armor. Shooting squad should run a ML and Plasma. Las against armor.

Don't run Missile Launchers unless you absolutely have to save 5 points. You generally don't have a problem with hordes as Black Templars, at least in my experience. Agreed on the rest though, except the Axe. I'd rather have a Power Fist. Templars can't bail out of combat with Walkers, and I'd rather have the Power Fist be able to ID T4 stuff. If you're fighting 2+ save units with Crusaders you're either drowning them in attacks or dying miserably anyway.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

2) AAC is pretty much the go-to Vow. But you have to be SMART to set up those charges to ensure you get the bonus. You NEED a Chaplain in your CC squad, with 3 Servitors, to get max Zeal moves and give you the ability to Zeal towards ANY enemy rather than the original shooter. This will get you into cover and setup fake out charges on enemies who may try to charge you next turn. Zig zag!!! Its what wins my games. My CC Crusader squad is a nightmare, especially a full Black Tide. People dont worry about it until they realize I know exactly what Im doing and wipe their foot troops out. Suffer Not is decent if you dont think youre gonna get charges.

You don't HAVE to have Chaplains or Servitors. Sure, if you're running a Blob'o'doom it's pretty much mandatory to have at least a Chaplain, but a Crusader Squad joined by the Emperor's Champion in a Drop Pod is an excellent backfield harrassment unit that more or less forces your opponent to react lest stuff like Long Fangs and Guard blobs be assaulted by an angry melonfether and his slightly less angry friends.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

3) Aegis + Techmarine in your shooty squad is pretty decent. Have him Signum the Bolter Intiate manning the Quad and youll probably pop something. With a harness and combi-plasma hes no shooty slouch either. However I wouldnt bother unless youre facing a flyer-heavy army. Putting him a a Black Tide is an absolute nightmare of Power Knuckles in dirty heretic faces; unfortunately those points are better spent elsewhere. But hes fun.

Don't waste a Techmarine standing around firing a gun you could be firing anyway. In my experience, Techmarines are only useful for adding a lot of extra oomph to a squad. A Techmarine with Terminator Armour, Chainfist and Storm Shield is only 140 points and will let his squad outfight most other non-Deathstars in the game. If you don't fancy putting that many points into him, he starts with a Power Weapon so you can skip the Chainfist to have him at 110 points instead.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:


4) Most transports Id say use your points elsewhere. A Razorback is decent fire support for a Shooty squad holding objectives. Have them go to ground if they lose a man to stay on the objective. An LRC can be decent for a CC Crusader squad and mandatory for a Assault Termi squad. But dont bring them out til 1500+

Agreed, except Drop Pods are good.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:


5) Always bring shooty Termis. CMLx2 is probably the most versatile. Not that AssCans are bad; I have em but down use em. Tank Hunters. Light armor and massed infantry can suck it. Deep strike em behind enemy lines for a good distraction. Bigger games you can get the Assault Termis out. TH/SS x2 and LC x3. With a TDA Chaplain in an LRC. Deathstar. Suck it.

I'd actually not bring shooty Termies if I had loads of other expensive stuff, but yes, they're really good. I also wouldn't run LC Terminators any longer or Deep Strike Terminators.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:


6) Answered earlier. I only bring a minimum shooting squad and use them for objectives. People are too worried about my CC squad, CC Initiates, shooty Terminators, and Typhoons to care about the shooting squad. TYPHOONS BRING TWO NO MATTER WHAT!!!!! Use em like snipers and sacrifice them on heavy armor with the Multi Melta.

You don't have to bring Typhoons, but yeah, they're good.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
7) Marshall? TH/SS. But I wouldnt bother. The benefits from a Chaplain in a large CC blob far outweighs the benefits of a Marshall.

If you're not playing a blob I'd probably go for a Marshal, since he's more bang for the buck. Otherwise yeah, Chaplains are amazing.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
So, looking at Black Templars with 6th edition out, and I'm worried on what to run. I've thought of a basic 1000pt list, but I have a few questions:

1. Is mixing Bolters w/ Bolt pistols and chainswords a good idea? Or should it be kept to one or the other?

2. Is Accept Any Challenge still the best choice on a Champion?

3. Would taking a Techmarine on an Aegis defense line be good anti-air? Or should I just ignore the flyers and kill everything else?

4. Transports. Drop pods, Rhinos, or Razor backs? What units merit enough worth to put in a Land Raider?

5. Terminators? Yey or ney? And if Yey, which one is better? What loadouts work best?

6. Equipment. Is a Power Sword, Meltabombs, and a Meltagun still a good setup on a Crusader squad, without doing that Las/plas squad? (I honestly do not really like that setup)

7. Whats a good setup for the Marshal? Is it still a Lightning Claw, and Storm Shield?

Go ahead and throw in your input.

WELCOME TO THE ETERNAL CRUSADE BROTHER. Im pretty much the Unofficial BT Chaplain around here, just check out how many Templar players have my quotes in their sigs. That should give you a inkling of the RIGHTEOUS ZEAL I have at my command.

Beware the sin of pride, brother!

On topic, I'll reply more later as I have errands to run, but I don't feel like throwing a bolter into a BP/CCW squad is necessary anymore as IIRC the assault requirement if you take AAC is gone

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
So, looking at Black Templars with 6th edition out, and I'm worried on what to run. I've thought of a basic 1000pt list, but I have a few questions:

1. Is mixing Bolters w/ Bolt pistols and chainswords a good idea? Or should it be kept to one or the other?

Not in the same squad. Do one squad CC weapons and one squad Bolters if you want to mix it up.

2. Is Accept Any Challenge still the best choice on a Champion?

It's good. I also like Abhor the Witch... if you run into someone who likes to use a lot of psykers.

3. Would taking a Techmarine on an Aegis defense line be good anti-air? Or should I just ignore the flyers and kill everything else?

That, or get the new Stormraven that's coming out for BT.

4. Transports. Drop pods, Rhinos, or Razor backs? What units merit enough worth to put in a Land Raider?

Don't waste your time with a Land Raider. There's much more cost effective things out there. Go for the Rhinos for transports to get your BTs into the action. Vindicators are great to have nearby for Heavy Support taking the hits instead of the Rhinos.

5. Terminators? Yey or ney? And if Yey, which one is better? What loadouts work best?

I'm on the fence about this one. I'd say if you're taking stock Terms, then nay. If you're taking them with the shield/power weapon combo, then go for it!

6. Equipment. Is a Power Sword, Meltabombs, and a Meltagun still a good setup on a Crusader squad, without doing that Las/plas squad? (I honestly do not really like that setup)

I honestly don't know about this one.

7. Whats a good setup for the Marshal? Is it still a Lightning Claw, and Storm Shield?

Go ahead and throw in your input.

I'd go with the Claw/Shield for the Marshal despite the fact that I hardly ever run mine. I usually go for the Recruz or Master of Sanc. myself.

Welcome to the Crusade, Brother!

The input so far is spectacular, and I'd like to say a few more things about the army I'm focusing on.:

What I'm mostly researching BT for is to do an Ally army with IG. Mostly inspired by the Helsreach novel, but I'm just doing it for the concept of IG fighting with BT

I want the BT to most likely be a buffer for the IG, as they IG will mostly be worrying about tanks and other heavier things with HWT and a Leman Russ.

I'm thinking about 1500pts, and I'm on the bench of do I use my BT as an Assault force, or let them be shooty and hold the enemy back so they don't hit my IG lines.

If you're going to ally the Templars to IG you're almost certainly going to want double CML/AssCan Tank Hunter Terminators. They're great at range and provide counter-assault capabilities to your IG. You'd probably also want to run the mandatory Troops as a Lasplas-squad or in a Drop Pod with Melta/Flamer and a Power Fist/Axe. Since you're allying you shouldn't take any other HQ than the Emperor's Champion, as that'd just be a waste of points IMO.

CML's seem like they'd be really nice in that situation, but assault cannons wouldn't be bad either.

I might go the drop pod route, as I honestly hate the Las/plas setup. I'm tried using it before, and it never really worked for me. Maybe I'll give it a second shot here.

So, use IG as the Parent Army and make the Command Squad my warlord?

In a complete role reversal, I play BT and Im building Steel Legion for my allies.

So, how are you running them together? What are you taking for each army?

Here is my army. 1850 points. (1840 actually, so prob buy a pintle multi melta on the lrc)

Imperial Guard Primary Detatchment - 1250 Points

HQ

Company Command Squad
3 x Plasma Gun, chimera
150 points

TROOPS

Veteran Squad
3 x Plasma Gun, chimera
170 points

Veteran Squad
3 x Plasma Gun, chimera
170 points

Veteran Squad
3 x Meltagun,
100 points

Veteran Squad
3 x Meltagun,
100 points

FAST ATTACK

Vendetta Gunship
130 points

Vendetta Gunship
130 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman Russ Battle Tank
150 points

Leman Russ Battle Tank
150 points

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Black Templars Allied Detatchment - 590 points

Reclusiarch
Bolt Pistol
96 points

Crusader Squad
10x Initiates, 5x Neophytes, Flamer, Power Weapon
226 points

Dedicated Land Raider Crusader
Smoke Launchers, Search Light
268 points

For 2000, what I'm considering is swap the leman russes for manticores, and buy a hellhound as more counter charge.

I was thinking of going something like this (no points totals on the units cause I'm being lazy right now)

Command Squad w/ Lascannon, 2 Plasma guns, Carapace Armor, and the Regimental Banner

2 Vet Squads w/ 3 Plasma guns, a Lascannon, and that upgrade that gives them Carapace armor

2 Autocannon Sentinels

A Leman Russ Battle tank w/ Pask (Vanilla, or the one with the demolisher cannon)

Emperor's Champ w/ AAC or something else

2 10 man squads of Crusaders in DP's, Razorbacks, or on foot, with meltas or flamers, krak grenades, meltabombs, and a power sword

Termie squad w/ 2 Cyclones w/ Tankhunter.

Hoping for about 1500pts. Maybe I'll bump it up, but I don't know.

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
I was thinking of going something like this (no points totals on the units cause I'm being lazy right now)

Command Squad w/ Lascannon, 2 Plasma guns, Carapace Armor, and the Regimental Banner

2 Vet Squads w/ 3 Plasma guns, a Lascannon, and that upgrade that gives them Carapace armor

2 Autocannon Sentinels

A Leman Russ Battle tank w/ Pask (Vanilla, or the one with the demolisher cannon)

Emperor's Champ w/ AAC or something else

2 10 man squads of Crusaders in DP's, Razorbacks, or on foot, with meltas or flamers, krak grenades, meltabombs, and a power sword

Termie squad w/ 2 Cyclones w/ Tankhunter.

Hoping for about 1500pts. Maybe I'll bump it up, but I don't know.

The two biggest things I noticed are bolded. 1. Sentinals are bad. Only real way to run them is LC on a scout, and that isn't very good.
2. PASK!?!?! PASK!?!?! Pask is meant for tanks that need to use their BS to hit. Those are the two WORST tanks to put him on.

Well, I'm starting with the Battleforce, cause I'm starting to ween out of Warhammer. I just want something simple, and if they can scout in and put a few autocannon rounds into the back of a vehicle or heavy infantry squad, I'm fine with that.

Seems like a fine bet to me. He seems worth it to stick him on a tank that I would want to hit the enemy with. The Vanquisher seems like the worst out of them all to throw him on, and seems absolutely redudant on the Punisher one (which I desperately want to love and use, but I'm using my guard for anti-tank)


EDIT: Oops... I think I goofed. Sorry about that. Just realized what I typed. Now I feel stupid! Forgive me XD Yeah, Vanquisher was what I was going to put Pask in. Emperor knows what the hell I'm saying, sleep loss isn't kind to me.

WELCOME TO THIS, OUR MOST HOLY OF CRUSADES, BROTHER!

As it has been said, we regularly fall behind damn near everyone else at pretty much everything. But that doesn't mean we can't give them a run for their money!

For Your guard, were you going to take them as your original or the Templars? With the Russes being heavy now, the turret ordinance is a no go now. Anything else is the way forward now. As for weapon mixing: DON'T! You lack the range to be snooty and you can't charge after rapid fire. CQC Crusaders work rather well in my experience, you just need to test what you feel comfortable using; Whether it be the mace-like qualities of a double or even triple LRC in 1,500 pts or a longbow-esque shooting army, you will need to decide your own weapon of choice. Power Axes in Crusader squads work well for anti-heavy infantry work too.

CaseyColt wrote:
Here is my army. 1850 points. (1840 actually, so prob buy a pintle multi melta on the lrc)

BT LRCs come with Extra Armour and Multi-melta standard.

Welcome to the Crusade, If you are using IG and Black Templars I would reccommend that you take:
a bunch of basalisk
Lots of infantry
blobs of crusader squads.

Use the basaliks to tear them apart at range then first rank second rank fire when they get close and then charge with templars.

Also you can kit out a techmarine to be super kill
Techmarine
Storm Shield
Power Fist
Servo harness
terminator honors

That setup will augment any unit you put it in by providing a major beatstick. Throw him in the front of a 50 man combined IG squad that is loaded with plasma, commissars and pimped out sergeants.

Run straken as your guard HG and give that blob furious charge.

So you have straken
Pimped out techmarine
50 guard blob with 5 commissars

The rules state that a characters special rules are conferred onto the unit. Your techmarine has rage, therefore if you put him in the blob they now have rage. 50 guardsmen with rage (200 on charge), Pimped out techmarine (7 S8 attacks on charge), plus whatever you gave the commissars(should be around 25 attacks.) Bare in mind that they all have furious charge thanks to Straken if he is in range.

It is cheesy but works. This is how, the rage is counted as a special rule, those are conferred onto the unit he joins. The only downside is that they have rage, but is well worth it in my opinion

"Unless specified in the rule itself (such as the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Page 39 BRB. The complete opposite of what you claimed.

Also, Terminator Honours just aren't ever worth it, 20 points for one extra attack is outrageously expensive.

Let me explain more, rage is a beneficial effect, not inherently in the rules for black templars, it is an effect granted by the emperor's champion. Thus the rage is carried to the unit, section right below what you quoted.

UNREALPwnage wrote:
Let me explain more, rage is a beneficial effect, not inherently in the rules for black templars, it is an effect granted by the emperor's champion. Thus the rage is carried to the unit, section right below what you quoted.

No. Just no. To start with, Rage is a Special Rule found on page 41 of the BRB that doesn't say it carries over, so it doesn't as per page 39. Furthermore, Accept Any Challenge is a Special Rule that not only doesn't mention being carried over by ICs but EXPLICITLY tells us that it only affects friendly models from Codex: Black Templars except Neophytes. So even if it did carry over (which it doesn't) the Guardsmen wouldn't have Rage, as they're not friendly models chosen from Codex: Black Templars.

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
So, how are you running them together? What are you taking for each army?

Ridiculous amounts of Plasma Vets and Yarrick. Nothing special, but it will take a while since Steel Legion is so bloody expensive. I already have a few painted along with Yarrick.

A thing I was considering was two Basilisks and a Griffon for accuracy (plus it's pretty cheap!) instead of the Leman Russ and Sentinels.

I'm still a bit on the bench on how to run my crusader squads.

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
A thing I was considering was two Basilisks and a Griffon for accuracy (plus it's pretty cheap!) instead of the Leman Russ and Sentinels.

I'm still a bit on the bench on how to run my crusader squads.

I'm actually a fan of large foot crusader blobs packed to the rafters with neophytes, there's power in units like that. With ACC you have a LOT of attacks on the charge. I don't like most of the transports due to cost. They way I run templars is to shove a ton of MEQ's in my opponent's face and say, "He a billion space marines, can you kill all of them? I don't think so"

Its probably not the best way to play them but its a lot of fun, and really if you are playing templars thats waht its all about.

Oh yes

WELCOME TO THE ETERNAL CRUSADE BROTHER

Might work, but it's a lot of models. I'll look more into it, see how to work around with the idea.