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I have been thinking some about the 6th ed:s power weapons, what kind is best to choose. F.ex, the axe seems just like a power fist that can team up with another weapon, so are they really worth taking? What is your opinions on the various kinds?

Nemesis Force Halberd. I6 ID weapon can really save the day in a challenge. Big fan of the warding stave too. Are we just talking basic power weapons or special character only weapons? I do like the randomness of a Deamonblade too

Depends on your unit.
A power fist on Eldar is only S6, but a Power maul will cost far less to get it up to S5, with no loss in I.
Similarly, a concussive maul is of little use to Eldar, as they are usually high-I already.

So, for low I models, a axe is quite good.
For low S models, the maul has benefits to with S+2.
Mid to high S, the fist.

But, if you're up against power armour, taking a sword is always an option.

Different power weapons do different jobs.
Lances: Good hit and run weapons, but kinda rely on the charge, the only units that can really make use of it are jump infantry and bike units with access to power weapons and even then they are a bit meh if you don't have the Hit and Run USR.

Mauls: Concussive is nice, AP:4 is cool but its breadwinning ability is its +2S aka the roll lots of armour saves USR. It statistically beats the sword out at all armour saves except 3+, even then its not by a lot, the jack of all trades weapon.

Swords: Kinda meh, ap3 is cool but as above only really good against targets with a save of 3+

Axes: Unwieldy like a fist but can be combined with another weapon, decide if you want a fair few medium strength attacks or a couple of high strength. AP 2 has heaps going for it though.

In units that can pile on the power weapons (DA Vets, command squads, CSM Terminators) a mix of weapons are best.

Sword best all rounder ... lets you strike at your Initiative and AP3 so a standard MEQ killer.

Lance is a tricky one ... should only be found on fast assault units that can get the charge (bikes, cavalry, jumpacks) so that they can kill every one and move on. Personally would take a sword over this.

Maul is an ork killer ... It ignores most of their saves and 2+ strength helps against their toughness. The one problem is you don't really want to be in assault with an ork. (Best on MC who ignore unwieldy and make it AP2)

Power Axe ... unwieldy so you strike at I1 but AP2 and +1 strength. If you're going second any way you want this. Probably the best standard power weapon in the game at the moment.

 Tri wrote:
Sword best all rounder ... lets you strike at your Initiative and AP3 so a standard MEQ killer.

Maul is the best all rounder, the sword beats it only against 3+ armour saves, the maul is superior in every other respect and here is why.

They both negate armour saves of 4+ or worse, however the maul does so with an additional 2 strength, meaning its going to do a lot more wounds that will bypass any armour.

Against 2+ armour saves, both weapons do not negate it but again the maul has the additional 2 strength which means it will be forcing a lot more of those 2+ saves to be rolled, increasing the kill rate.

Against vehicles, swords can only hurt rear armour 10 and even then, only if you are S4 base already, mauls on the other hand are an additional 2 strength, meaning that even on a base strength of three, you can pen armour 10 and glance armour 11, this moves up to pens on 10 and 11 and glancing 12 on a base strength of 4.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Sword best all rounder ... lets you strike at your Initiative and AP3 so a standard MEQ killer.

Maul is the best all rounder, the sword beats it only against 3+ armour saves, the maul is superior in every other respect and here is why.

They both negate armour saves of 4+ or worse, however the maul does so with an additional 2 strength, meaning its going to do a lot more wounds that will bypass any armour.

Against 2+ armour saves, both weapons do not negate it but again the maul has the additional 2 strength which means it will be forcing a lot more of those 2+ saves to be rolled, increasing the kill rate.

Against vehicles, swords can only hurt rear armour 10 and even then, only if you are S4 base already, mauls on the other hand are an additional 2 strength, meaning that even on a base strength of three, you can pen armour 10 and glance armour 11, this moves up to pens on 10 and 11 and glancing 12 on a base strength of 4.

Agreed on this. I started take Power Mauls a lot, and so far they have proved to be pretty effective. My PW strategy tends to be that if I don't know what I will be fighting exactly, a Power Maul will cover most of it. On my IG, I look at it this way as well. If I go up against a 2+ or 3+ save, most likely im screwed in CC anyway.

For Chaos with forced challenges, I rely on swords and single claws to beat other marine squad leaders.

Black Mace

Warscythe
/thread
lol

Klaive is the best power weapon avalable so far. Its a power axe without unwieldly at I5 and WS 5=AWESOME!

Normal power weapon, when i use them i use the lance. But only because the only PW i have is on my halequin sarge who is likely to get the charge with FC and H&R, that str 5 ap3 isnt looking so bad.

There is no 'best' power weapon, as each works well with a specific unit or against a specific target.

Power Maul: The Maul is the best choice against anything with an armor save worse than a 3+. S+2 and striking at initiative is always a plus. The only thing that keeps me from recommending it as the go to weapon is that power armor is everywhere. Even if you know that there are a lot of xenos in your meta, I can still suggest the sword if you have little to deal with 3+ saves when they show up.

Power Sword: The sword literally has one purpose, killing power armor. Worse against 4+ than a maul, and the worst power weapon against terminators. However, it is the best choice for killing power armor (the lance is too conditional), and since easily 60% of the general metagame has a 3+ save, I would suggest the sword as the default if going into an unknown meta. If you know that there is a lot of non-necron xenos in your meta, or have AP3 covered, go with the maul instead.

Power Axe: Unlike like the sword or maul, which I consider to be generalist choices, the axe is where we start to get specialized. While good at dealing with TEQ, I would argue that it is worse than the sword against all other targets because despite the increase in strength, you are still hitting last. I would only take this if you want the unit to be dedicated to taking out terminators.

Power Lance: Unlike the other power weapons which really care about what you are facing, the Lance is the only weapon which cares more about who is carrying it. Generally, I can only suggest lances on units that have the goal of either completely wiping something out in a single charge (Death Company) or units with hit and run (Ravenwing).

RegalPhantom: The Axe is a much more generalist choice on models that don't expect to strike first. If you're dealing with an I2 or I3 model, it's not costing you much.

Power axes are great on things like sanguinary priests who are never accepting challenges anyway.

of the 4 basic options

mauls are the best all around

swords are specialized 3+ save killers

axes are best if you already know you are striking last and the only one to do well against 2+ saves

lances are very meh.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Warscythe
/thread
lol

I though the warscythe wasn't classified as a power weapon.

Why do i think swords are the best all rounder?
The reason i said the sword was the best all rounder is it gets through 3+ saves ... flip to the back of your rule book and look at how many units have a 3+, space marines (x7 codices), sisters of battle, necrons, Eldar have some and heck even tau have a fair few units...

Now look at those with less then 3+
IG?not really a CC army ...
Orks? cool maul works wonders unless its a meganob...
Eldar/dark eldar? CC units strike first non-cc are easily over whelmed without need a power weapon ...
Tyranids? wait your in CC with nids, you did something wrong.

2+ saves are definitely part of the game but they are much rarer then 3+ saves. In a unit of 10 power weapons 5-6 will be swords the rest will be a mix of mauls and axes.

 Tri wrote:
Why do i think swords are the best all rounder?
The reason i said the sword was the best all rounder is it gets through 3+ saves ... flip to the back of your rule book and look at how many units have a 3+, space marines (x7 codices), sisters of battle, necrons, Eldar have some and heck even tau have a fair few units...

And the vast majority of those units are not measurably effective at close combat and a dedicated assault unit doesn't need to penetrate armour to be effective, it needs to make you roll more dice, in fact, since those are all shooty armies, by taking a maul over sword and not bypassing 3+ means you will be stuck in combat in your opponents shooting phase, which is the most desirable outcome of a charge.

I feel because of the dominace of 2+ armor, it comes down to the Power Axe. The dominace of 3+ (most common armor in the game) means sword is second best, but at the end of the day, pointless. The AP 4 of the Maul kills it for me, and the few models that have multiple wounds that the AP 4 can get through for Concussive are few and far. To me, the +2 Str argument is pointless if at that point all I am doing is trying to force 1s on armor saves. I should have Melta bombs on my PW character for vehicles/walkers and maybe MCs if they are that Tough that the Axe can't hurt them. If I am to the point of paying 10pts for a power weapon just for Str+2 just to hope my foe fails rolls, I might as well save 10pts and just use the CCW and hope he fails rolls.

End of the day, power axe+melta bombs/Fist/TH. Everything else is hoping your opponent fails, which means you have already failed.

 minigun762 wrote:
For Chaos with forced challenges, I rely on swords and single claws to beat other marine squad leaders.

This, for CSM you need to go with either LC or swords on champions, outside of champions I'd go with axes.

 BlkTom wrote:
I feel because of the dominace of 2+ armor, it comes down to the Power Axe. The dominace of 3+ (most common armor in the game) means sword is second best, but at the end of the day, pointless. The AP 4 of the Maul kills it for me, and the few models that have multiple wounds that the AP 4 can get through for Concussive are few and far. To me, the +2 Str argument is pointless if at that point all I am doing is trying to force 1s on armor saves. I should have Melta bombs on my PW character for vehicles/walkers and maybe MCs if they are that Tough that the Axe can't hurt them. If I am to the point of paying 10pts for a power weapon just for Str+2 just to hope my foe fails rolls, I might as well save 10pts and just use the CCW and hope he fails rolls.

End of the day, power axe+melta bombs/Fist/TH. Everything else is hoping your opponent fails, which means you have already failed.

You're paying +10-15pts to make your model significantly more likely to cause multiple wounds on your opponent and be able to damage vehicle armour.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Why do i think swords are the best all rounder?
The reason i said the sword was the best all rounder is it gets through 3+ saves ... flip to the back of your rule book and look at how many units have a 3+, space marines (x7 codices), sisters of battle, necrons, Eldar have some and heck even tau have a fair few units...

And the vast majority of those units are not measurably effective at close combat and a dedicated assault unit doesn't need to penetrate armour to be effective, it needs to make you roll more dice, in fact, since those are all shooty armies, by taking a maul over sword and not bypassing 3+ means you will be stuck in combat in your opponents shooting phase, which is the most desirable outcome of a charge.

Lets look at this from a pure statistical analysis.
(below Strength = Toughness. So S vsT-1 can be any of the following S2 vs T1 ... S10 vs T9)
(if a figure is not present it is because the weapon would have beaten a better save already)

S vs T-1 (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 11.1%, 22.2%, 33.3%
Maul 13.8%, 27.7%, 83.3%
Sword 11.1%, 66.6%
Axe 83.3%

S vs T (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 8.3%, 16.6%, 25%
Maul 13.8%, 27.7%, 83.3%
Sword 8.3%, 50%
Axe 66.6%

S vs T+1 (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 5.5%, 11.1%, 16.6%
Maul 11.1%, 22.2%, 66.6%
Sword 5.5%, 33.3%
Axe 50%

What does this tell us? Well firstly that attacking a space marine is tough and the maul barely helps ... Vs Nergle marines/bikes it helps a little
but vs a 3+ the sword always wins. The axe repeatedly does well against everything its just a shame that it strikes last as it might very well not strike at all. If your taking an axe you need lots of people.The only reason i wouldn't take an axe is if the model is going to die before they can use it (so not a good idea on most Characters thanks to challenges).

So if you are going to face Orks or Nids go for the maul its the best choice, if not and your enemy has lots of 3+ you want a sword. If its a lots of 2+ you need lots of people cause they're going to be a pain to kill what ever you take, better still take plasma and shoot them.

 Tri wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Why do i think swords are the best all rounder?
The reason i said the sword was the best all rounder is it gets through 3+ saves ... flip to the back of your rule book and look at how many units have a 3+, space marines (x7 codices), sisters of battle, necrons, Eldar have some and heck even tau have a fair few units...

And the vast majority of those units are not measurably effective at close combat and a dedicated assault unit doesn't need to penetrate armour to be effective, it needs to make you roll more dice, in fact, since those are all shooty armies, by taking a maul over sword and not bypassing 3+ means you will be stuck in combat in your opponents shooting phase, which is the most desirable outcome of a charge.

Lets look at this from a pure statistical analysis.
(below Strength = Toughness. So S vsT-1 can be any of the following S2 vs T1 ... S10 vs T9)
(if a figure is not present it is because the weapon would have beaten a better save already)

S vs T-1 (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 11.1%, 22.2%, 33.3%
Maul 13.8%, 27.7%, 83.3%
Sword 11.1%, 66.6%
Axe 83.3%

S vs T (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 8.3%, 16.6%, 25%
Maul 13.8%, 27.7%, 83.3%
Sword 8.3%, 50%
Axe 66.6%

S vs T+1 (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 5.5%, 11.1%, 16.6%
Maul 11.1%, 22.2%, 66.6%
Sword 5.5%, 33.3%
Axe 50%

What does this tell us? Well firstly that attacking a space marine is tough and the maul barely helps ... Vs Nergle marines/bikes it helps a little
but vs a 3+ the sword always wins. The axe repeatedly does well against everything its just a shame that it strikes last as it might very well not strike at all. If your taking an axe you need lots of people.The only reason i wouldn't take an axe is if the model is going to die before they can use it (so not a good idea on most Characters thanks to challenges).

So if you are going to face Orks or Nids go for the maul its the best choice, if not and your enemy has lots of 3+ you want a sword. If its a lots of 2+ you need lots of people cause they're going to be a pain to kill what ever you take, better still take plasma and shoot them.

there are other things in the game, particularly in a SM list and on characters, who your character just might end up in combat with through a thing like a challenge.
S=T, 2+/3++
Nothing 8.3%,
Maul 13.8%,
Sword 8.3%,
Axe 22.2%

S=T, 3++
Nothing 16.6%
Maul 27.7%,
Sword 16.6%,
Axe 22.2%

S=T, 3+/4++
Nothing 16.6%
Maul 27.7%
Sword 25%
Axe 33.3%

S=T, 3+/5++
Nothing 16.6%
Maul 27.7%
Sword 33.3%
Axe 44.4%

There are also vehicles and walkers. Against Contempitor Dreads and Land Raiders, melta bombs are really the only way but the maul helps you against everything else.
Also with the maul you dont NEED melta bombs. the maul will triple or quadrouple your damage compared to Krak Grenades. The sword and the axe are really still better off with a single krak grenade.

One of the main things I take into account is what do the other guys in my squads have.

For example, I field a Librarian in terminator armour with a force axe in a Blood Angels Assault Terminator Squad. In that case, it's good to pair him with a Lightning Claw Sergeant.

Like someone mentioned earlier, with the 'unwieldy' weapons, you need to be careful about challenges so it's good to pair an unwieldy guy with a high int guy. /obvious

 Tri wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Why do i think swords are the best all rounder?
The reason i said the sword was the best all rounder is it gets through 3+ saves ... flip to the back of your rule book and look at how many units have a 3+, space marines (x7 codices), sisters of battle, necrons, Eldar have some and heck even tau have a fair few units...

And the vast majority of those units are not measurably effective at close combat and a dedicated assault unit doesn't need to penetrate armour to be effective, it needs to make you roll more dice, in fact, since those are all shooty armies, by taking a maul over sword and not bypassing 3+ means you will be stuck in combat in your opponents shooting phase, which is the most desirable outcome of a charge.

Lets look at this from a pure statistical analysis.
(below Strength = Toughness. So S vsT-1 can be any of the following S2 vs T1 ... S10 vs T9)
(if a figure is not present it is because the weapon would have beaten a better save already)

S vs T-1 (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 11.1%, 22.2%, 33.3%
Maul 13.8%, 27.7%, 83.3%
Sword 11.1%, 66.6%
Axe 83.3%

S vs T (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 8.3%, 16.6%, 25%
Maul 13.8%, 27.7%, 83.3%
Sword 8.3%, 50%
Axe 66.6%

S vs T+1 (2+, 3,+, 4+)
Nothing 5.5%, 11.1%, 16.6%
Maul 11.1%, 22.2%, 66.6%
Sword 5.5%, 33.3%
Axe 50%

What does this tell us? Well firstly that attacking a space marine is tough and the maul barely helps ... Vs Nergle marines/bikes it helps a little
but vs a 3+ the sword always wins. The axe repeatedly does well against everything its just a shame that it strikes last as it might very well not strike at all. If your taking an axe you need lots of people.The only reason i wouldn't take an axe is if the model is going to die before they can use it (so not a good idea on most Characters thanks to challenges).

So if you are going to face Orks or Nids go for the maul its the best choice, if not and your enemy has lots of 3+ you want a sword. If its a lots of 2+ you need lots of people cause they're going to be a pain to kill what ever you take, better still take plasma and shoot them.

Clearly you haven't read any of my other posts in this thread, let me dig them up for you.

Krellnus wrote:Different power weapons do different jobs.
Lances: Good hit and run weapons, but kinda rely on the charge, the only units that can really make use of it are jump infantry and bike units with access to power weapons and even then they are a bit meh if you don't have the Hit and Run USR.

Mauls: Concussive is nice, AP:4 is cool but its breadwinning ability is its +2S aka the roll lots of armour saves USR. It statistically beats the sword out at all armour saves except 3+, even then its not by a lot, the jack of all trades weapon.

Swords: Kinda meh, ap3 is cool but as above only really good against targets with a save of 3+

Axes: Unwieldy like a fist but can be combined with another weapon, decide if you want a fair few medium strength attacks or a couple of high strength. AP 2 has heaps going for it though.

In units that can pile on the power weapons (DA Vets, command squads, CSM Terminators) a mix of weapons are best.

I never said that the maul beat the sword at everything, I said that it beat the sword against everything except 3+ armour saves if you want me to I can run you the math for the most common encounters, maul vs. sword on a space marine, guardsman.

 Krellnus wrote:
I never said that the maul beat the sword at everything, I said that it beat the sword against everything except 3+ armour saves if you want me to I can run you the math for the most common encounters, maul vs. sword on a space marine, guardsman.

Space marine attacking a guardsmen you don't need a power weapon you need more attacks. If you do want to compare, a standard attack has Space marine attacking a guards man is 44.4% (without rolling WS), a mauls 83.3% (so 1.9x as effective) and a swords 66.6% (1.5x as effective). So while the maul is nearly 0.4x more effective then a sword it is not massively better. Going the other way 11.1% without a power weapon, the maul is 22.2% (2x as effective) and the sword is 33.3% so (3x as effective) ... which is why i go for the sword. (whole point of my workings are that they work with anything ... but there you go)

Maul on vehicles? Sure lots of AV10 rear armour makes much more sense then taking krak grenades as you'll be getting three attacks. Still not convinced this is a big enough reason to take it though.

 Tri wrote:


Maul on vehicles? Sure lots of AV10 rear armour makes much more sense then taking krak grenades as you'll be getting three attacks. Still not convinced this is a big enough reason to take it though.

you usually charge vehicles, so you will have 4 attacks.

Its a small bonus to be sure. Melta bombs are still probably better but they cost 5 points and not everyone can take melta bombs.
invunerable saves are the big thing. Lots of characters have them, lots of models have them.

If you know you are going after marines, perhaps i would think about choosing a sword, but I would never call it "The best all arounder" because that is simply not true. The sword does 1 thing better than the maul, it is a specialist weapon that happens to see a lot of use because the thing it specializes in is common. The maul is the TAC choice, if you want to be good against everything. When you take the sword, you are saying, I want to be better against 3+ saves at the price of wasting points against everything else in the game.

On the other hand since 50% of armies are 3+ and more actual players are marines maybe that does make the power sword the best all rounder

 Compel wrote:
On the other hand since 50% of armies are 3+ and more actual players are marines maybe that does make the power sword the best all rounder

best choice considering the meta and best all rounder are very different.

in 5th the best special weapon was the melta gun, because it killed tanks. The best special weapon against orks and nids was and is a flamer. The best all rounder was and is the plasma gun as it can damage tanks and threaten infantry at a decent range.

 Exergy wrote:

 Compel wrote:
On the other hand since 50% of armies are 3+ and more actual players are marines maybe that does make the power sword the best all rounder

best choice considering the meta and best all rounder are very different.

? no. When i looked at the weapons in a vacuum i got excited and thought the maul was the thing to have. When you look at whats actually out there and play test, the maul falls short. It's great in theory in practice there is a hell of a lot of 3+ saves. Vehicles? most AV 10 are transports ... i like to deal with that in the shooting phase before its too late to do anything about the occupants.

Still agree to disagree i wish you well with your mauls.