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Tank shock....

If you're driving tanks and tranports around in groups, use the first one or two to herd the enemy into lumps, then follow up slowly and roast them.

It really hasn't changed much from 5th to 6th, it's the situational advantage of the hull HF that makes it a better option than the HB.

If you're trying to use the HF then you're doing it wrong. With a suitably built mech-list your opponent is going to be getting near you, not the other way around, and the HF is a great contingency weapon in that event.

I have had no end of enemy units closing on my T1 with drop pods, or T2 with fast assault vehicles and deepstrike/outflank units. When they get that close 1 HF on 1 chimera > all the HB on every chimera in the army.

Okay, this is all getting rather repetitive. Let me just summarize what the arguments for heavy flamers are so far:

1.) Every once in a blue moon, they do something awesome. One home run is better than 40 bunts. I LOVE deathstrikes! This one time, in my basement...

2.) My opponents are desperate enough to attempt cross-table charges with Sv4+ units that somehow get a cover save all the way there just so that they can attempt to take out my vehicles with krak and haywire grenades.

3.) My opponents are dumb enough to not shoot at my chimeras or disperse their units when a chimera is 12" or less away from their stuff.

4.) My opponents don't play space marines. Furthermore, they LOVE rushing stuff with a Sv4+ save or worse straight into my stuff.

5.) My opponents don't bring units that heavy bolters or multilasers can reliably do damage to. Multi-shot mid-strength shooting isn't useful.

6.) I move my chimeras around a lot. A weapon that fires at BS1 at range is worse than a weapon that is BS0 without any.

Wow, could you be more patronizing?

Somehow I think so!

I don't know why anyone responds to Ailaros' threads, they all go down the same way. He puts forth an opinion under the guise of starting a discussion, and then doggedly sticks to that opinion no matter what anyone says as if we're all feeble minded simpletons for him to educate.

Ultimately the heavy flamer is better because of all the reasons already mentioned. Ignores cover, keeps the enemy away, auto hits, and when it fires does a lot more for you than a sad little snap firing heavy bolter.

Well, that just tells me not to ever post in an Ailaros thread again.

Thanks for saving me a lot of time.

Yeah, and when you place the template you can say "FWOOOOOOOSH!!!" like it's really firing

I just slap heavy bolters on my command chimeras. Everyone else gets a heavy flamer like god intended. Why? Because I don't want my CCS to get into assault range and give away a free "Slay the Warlord" point. With everyone else, they -may- get into enough range where the heavy flamer might be useful on my own terms. To be honest, this is an arbitrary system since I could easily say that my command chimeras get heavy flamers to deter deep striking assault units and everyone else gets heavy bolters since I'm going to be camping. Or everyone gets heavy flamers to deter assault units (Or to get that once in a blue moon sweet kill) or everyone gets heavy bolters since they are going to be camping. It comes down to personal choice since, either way, a single HB/HF isn't going to do much in the first place. It's all about the tasty goods inside.

creeping-deth87 wrote:I don't know why anyone responds to Ailaros' threads, they all go down the same way. He puts forth an opinion under the guise of starting a discussion, and then doggedly sticks to that opinion no matter what anyone says as if we're all feeble minded simpletons for him to educate.

I put forward opinions that challenge the status quo and wait for people to prove me wrong. People who are emotionally invested in their opinions get angry, but don't say anything useful.

Sometimes they do, though. I'm still waiting on this topic.

creeping-deth87 wrote:Ultimately the heavy flamer is better because of all the reasons already mentioned. Ignores cover, keeps the enemy away, auto hits, and when it fires does a lot more for you than a sad little snap firing heavy bolter.

And this is part of the problem. People who are emotionally invested in their opinions only want to accept input that confirms their existing opinion, regardless of how much they have to not listen before they speak to achieve this.

Take this quote. Everything's been addressed more than once. Heavy bolters can ignore cover saves in situations of focus firing, and heavy flamers never get to ignore cover when they never get a chance to shoot for a variety of good reasons. The only enemies it keeps away are those that are Sv4+ or worse, and can only hurt chimeras at very close ranges, often by deepstriking. There aren't many of these units. The fact that it auto-hits is meaningless if it scarcely ever gets to shoot. The fact that, once in roughly never it scores big does not make it better than something that does less damage consistently. Otherwise, everyone would take deathstrikes.

You're not being ignored straight away. You're only being ignored when you say things that have already been addressed. You have to bring something new and useful to the conversation.

kronk wrote:Well, that just tells me not to ever post in an Ailaros thread again.

creeping-deth87 wrote:I don't know why anyone responds to Ailaros' threads

rigeld2 wrote:Wow, could you be more patronizing?

Or you could take things personally, and be abrasive instead.

This really isn't an emotional thing for me. I really am looking for genuine reasons for thinking about things in a different way than I already am (or I wouldn't bother communicating with people at all). So far, it's not happening. No reason to get in a huff.

Ailaros wrote:This really isn't an emotional thing for me. I really am looking for genuine reasons for thinking about things in a different way than I already am (or I wouldn't bother communicating with people at all). So far, it's not happening. No reason to get in a huff.

Yeah, clearly not an emotional thing for you. That's why you're able to be so objective when looking at the other side's arguments.

Ailaros wrote:Okay, this is all getting rather repetitive. Let me just summarize what the arguments for heavy flamers are so far:

1.) Every once in a blue moon, they do something awesome. One home run is better than 40 bunts. I LOVE deathstrikes! This one time, in my basement...

2.) My opponents are desperate enough to attempt cross-table charges with Sv4+ units that somehow get a cover save all the way there just so that they can attempt to take out my vehicles with krak and haywire grenades.

3.) My opponents are dumb enough to not shoot at my chimeras or disperse their units when a chimera is 12" or less away from their stuff.

4.) My opponents don't play space marines. Furthermore, they LOVE rushing stuff with a Sv4+ save or worse straight into my stuff.

5.) My opponents don't bring units that heavy bolters or multilasers can reliably do damage to. Multi-shot mid-strength shooting isn't useful.

6.) I move my chimeras around a lot. A weapon that fires at BS1 at range is worse than a weapon that is BS0 without any.

Oh. Wait.

For what it's worth, I appreciate the rethinking of the status quo, especially given the new edition. I'm inclined to agree that the heavy bolter is a much better option for the Chimera. I tend to pick synergy over situation for vehicle weapons- I wouldn't take a battle tank russ with multi-melta sponsons. Heavy Bolters and Multilasers are way more synergistic than multilaser/HF.

rigeld2 wrote:
Wow, could you be more patronizing?

Yes, he could. I've seen much ruder posts. Not often on Dakka, but on Warseer and BoLs.

At any rate, this is an interesting thread from a marine point of view. The Chimera is a great tank, much better than the Rhino or the Razorback. Although I must admit that this thread is making me appreciate my fast BA vehicles more.

So the quandry is to have the option to move 6" and fire a multilaser at full BS and have the template do nothing, or move 6" and fire the multilaser and snap fire the heavy bolter. Sitting still, the heavy bolter choice looks a lot better, but many are claiming this rarely happens. I need to pay more attention in my games, because I'm not used to worrying about whether my transports will fire or not when I move them. I could easily see play styles that favor either moving them or not moving them.

Let me state that I am a huge fan of the heavy flamer, and not such a fan of the heavy bolter. I feel that the ignores cover mechanic is more important than ever in 6th edition. Automatically hitting on top of ignoring cover is awesome, especially for a BS 3 list. The heavy bolter is far less killy than the heavy flamer, but it obviously has a much longer range, and can at least be fired while on the move.

It seems to me that many lists will want to close with the IG. If that's the case, it seems reasonable to think that there will be opportunities to move the tank 6" and flame something. I personally don't see this as a home run situation necessarily, but I find it hard to get close to get guard in the first place. My stuff has this horrible tendency to explode or lose all its wounds to shooting.

That being said, three or so parked Chimeras with the heavy bolter option adds some cheap torrent fire capable of putting the hurt on all kinds of targets. From games I have observed, players with monstrous creatures in particular always seem surprising how many wounds they end up taking from Chimera fire.

I don't see any definitive mathhammer solution to this particular choice, because their purposes are so different. I think it has to be answered in context of the rest of the list.

Although I really shouldn't be replying to an Ailerons thread....

I've got a good mix of chimeras in my army.

If I'm not camoing behind a defence line with my warlord. He's in a chimera with multi laser and bolter.

My platoon command squad find themselves in a chimera with turret flamer and hull bolter since they're armed with 4 flamers and it helps with lining things up. They're also more mobile then my cowardly HQ....

Whereas any plasma or melta vet or command squads have the hull flamer because they need to get close to use their main guns, so I might as well soften them first with a flamer...

To the heavy flamer = deathstrike point you raised Ailaros; this isnt the same, simply because we have to pay for the deathstrike, whereas I get lots of them, for free, on my chimeras. The fact that I have 5 heavy flamers rather than one means that not only am I 5 times more likely to fire one, Im also 5 times more likely to get that crucial shot that vaporises an entire unit.

5 heavy bolters at bs3 is trash. 5 heavy flamers at bs3?

Ill take 10.

I challenge the idea that a hull heavy flamer only rarely does anything. It has a max range of about 13", and an effective range of 8-10". Lots of threats get that close, and having the heavy flamer there is nice. I'd say my heavy flamers get a nice shot off every other game or so. When you have more than one on the table, that means one great shot a game.

As always, this is an instance were taking a weapon that often, but not always, is devestating is better than taking a weapon that's always mediocre. Even under optimal conditions (stationary, living six turns, shooting at T3 4+ save models in the open) the HB will kill roughly 8 models. That's a nearly perect situation that will never happen. A heavy flamer can do that in one good shot, or two mediocre ones.

Still, the bigger picture for me isn't just which weapon is better in a vacuum, it's also about what weapon adds more to my army. With vendettas, and ADL with gun, and plenty of heavy weapons, I'm usually not scrapping bottom on anti-aircraft or anti-vehicle in general. With lasguns and multi-lasers, I have adequete volume of fire. What I usually need more of is a way to respond to close in threats.

I've found that a canny opponent will often ignore a chimera with a HB in assault, because there's a hard limit on the damage it can cause. They will not be blase about leaving a heavy flamer around. Unless you somehow view chimeras as valuable, you want them focusing on them over your killing units.

It's better to have the right tool and not need it, than need it and not have it. Heavy bolters, even when fired at full BS by a marine is fairly useless. It's nothing to write home about. Getting all up in a tizzy trying to prove that a snap fired HBolter is more useful than a flamer is a little much. Situationally the heavy flamer is far more useful, and guess what, I still have a ML. As said by previous posters the heavy bolter is better if you are sitting your chimera behind an aegis or in cover and don't plan on moving. Once the bullets start firing even the best made plans have to change to adapt to circumstance. The Hflamer not be used as often but guess what, when you need that heavy flamer a heavy bolter isn't going to be worth . I don't have as many chimeras as most guard players, so the ones I do have intend to use more aggressively. That's where the flamer comes in handy. Heck I consider the twin linked heavy bolter on a land raider a complete waste of a weapon slot. If we could opt to shoot hellfire boss rounds from the HBolter, then that would be a different story, but we can't.

Ailaros, for all his abrasiveness, does often raise some good points. He also invites debate, like he said to challenge the status quo. That doesn't mean he's always right and we dont have to agree. If it wasn't for all the back and forth between Ailaros and peregrine I wouldn't be as good a guard player. They make us think objectively about the lists we build, the units we choose and how we outfit them.

The sad part here is we are having an extensive argument over the merits of a snap fired HBolter, a mediocre weapon to start with. Given that else where in the guard codex a Hflamer costs 20 points, upgrading one for free from a weapon that will mostly only get to snapfire seems to me a fairly obvious choice. Unless you are list tailoring or have all you chimera's magnetized so you can swap on the fly, I know which weapon I am gluing on.

The comparison to the Deathstrike, while superfiically satisfying, is actually a poor one.

The Deathstrike is a lotto ticket. You don't know when it will launch, how big the blast will be, or how good a target you'll have when it goes off. Like a scratch off you might get your money back, win big, or more likely, end up with nothing.

The Hull Heavy Flamer is more like a $50 chain restaurant gift card. You can't spend it anywhere, but when you get an opportunity, it's a nice big free meal. Meaning, you don't always get a good shot with the HHF. But when you do, you auto hit with S5 ignoring cover and 4+ saves.

 Ailaros wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:I don't know why anyone responds to Ailaros' threads, they all go down the same way. He puts forth an opinion under the guise of starting a discussion, and then doggedly sticks to that opinion no matter what anyone says as if we're all feeble minded simpletons for him to educate.

I put forward opinions that challenge the status quo and wait for people to prove me wrong. People who are emotionally invested in their opinions get angry, but don't say anything useful.

Sometimes they do, though. I'm still waiting on this topic.

Next Ailaros thread:

"The Penal Legion; a tournament winning unit in disguise?"

Hey, I actually think Penal Legion are an underrated choice. not good in a classic sense, but they can be a part of a winning list. More so, IMO, than many other units in the book.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:I don't know why anyone responds to Ailaros' threads, they all go down the same way. He puts forth an opinion under the guise of starting a discussion, and then doggedly sticks to that opinion no matter what anyone says as if we're all feeble minded simpletons for him to educate.

I put forward opinions that challenge the status quo and wait for people to prove me wrong. People who are emotionally invested in their opinions get angry, but don't say anything useful.

Sometimes they do, though. I'm still waiting on this topic.

Next Ailaros thread:

"The Penal Legion; a tournament winning unit in disguise?"

I could see it now... "Penal Legionaries are good cause (Insert situational mathhammer here) and so they aren't so bad". "Uhh.. no, that still doesn't make them good". "Yes it does! They are better than other units at that role!".

To be fair to him, he did change my mind about how to run Leman Russ tanks. I used to think Vanquishers were "meh" until I just recently.

TheCustomLime wrote:

To be fair to him, he did change my mind about how to run Leman Russ tanks. I used to think Vanquishers were "meh" until I just recently.

They're still "meh". They're just more capable of doing something when you spam five of them...

Gordash wrote:
For what it's worth, I appreciate the rethinking of the status quo, especially given the new edition. I'm inclined to agree that the heavy bolter is a much better option for the Chimera. I tend to pick synergy over situation for vehicle weapons- I wouldn't take a battle tank russ with multi-melta sponsons. Heavy Bolters and Multilasers are way more synergistic than multilaser/HF.

Compared to 5th, the heavy bolter is much better now. Adding snap fire, and lowering cover to 5+ much of the time makes the humble heavy bolter merely humble, as opposed to nearly worthless.

For a pillbox/gunline style unit, the HB is a better choice.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:

To be fair to him, he did change my mind about how to run Leman Russ tanks. I used to think Vanquishers were "meh" until I just recently.

They're still "meh". They're just more capable of doing something when you spam five of them...

Well, Paskquishers at the very least. Those things are pretty killy. I still think LRBTs are good for spamming since they can pick up the slack for each other, much like with Lascannons. One Lascannon shot is pretty crummy at doing.. anything but that's why you take more than one.

On topic... my opinion is out there. Take either one, they both aren't much to write home about. Mix and match to your heart's content, it's not like the guard is dying for more heavy bolters or flamers.

TheCustomLime wrote:
Take either one, they both aren't much to write home about. Mix and match to your heart's content, it's not like the guard is dying for more heavy bolters or flamers.

This is probably more true than not. In many ways it's like the debate between shotguns and lasguns for veterans.

As stated, the difference is between a slow but steady dribble of S5 shooting, or the occasional template of doom. YMMV.

 Polonius wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:
Take either one, they both aren't much to write home about. Mix and match to your heart's content, it's not like the guard is dying for more heavy bolters or flamers.

This is probably more true than not. In many ways it's like the debate between shotguns and lasguns for veterans.

As stated, the difference is between a slow but steady dribble of S5 shooting, or the occasional template of doom. YMMV.

I agree. The insistence that one is infinitely better, and always the go-to is ridiculous and bullheaded.

Any Chimera forcing upfield should take a HF.

Any Chimera that will park stationary for more than a turn should probably take a HB.

Afrodactyl wrote: simply because we have to pay for the deathstrike, whereas I get lots of them, for free, on my chimeras.

It's still an opportunity cost.

Polonius wrote: When you have more than one on the table, that means one great shot a game.

This sounds like spam creating the illusion of effectiveness, though. Yeah, if you had 8 heavy flamers on the table, you might be able to get a decent hit every game, but 8 heavy bolters would still be a lot better.

Polonius wrote:As always, this is an instance were taking a weapon that often, but not always, is devestating is better than taking a weapon that's always mediocre.

And here's the point of contention here. The idea that heavy flamers are going to go around racking up dozens of hits per game seems absurd to me. The range of the weapon is tiny, meaning its effectiveness is seriously questionable (people don't even take banewolves because they never get to fire, and that's on a fast chassis), given that your opponent can much, much more easily avoid a heavy flamer hit than staying out of range and LOS of a heavy bolter. If your opponents are really that afraid of them, they'll be picked off before they can do anything serious with a weapon that has a very limited range (a range of like 2 or 3 inches if you want to get more than a hit or two), or your opponents will just displace.

Game after game of racking up hits just seems like a fantasy.

I feel like it's one of those selective memory things. People remember that one time when a heavy flamer saved their butts, while ignoring that a vast majority of the time, they do nothing.

In this case, taking a weapon that is mediocre consistently is still better than a weapon that will do big damage a couple of times a rules edition. Just because the damage of a heavy bolter is less spectacular doesn't mean that you're doing less damage with it. Throw on the fact that heavy bolters can engage a wider range of targets, and can do anything on the move, and the heavy bolter looks like it consistently does more damage to more stuff over more time.

Polonius wrote:The Hull Heavy Flamer is more like a $50 chain restaurant gift card. You can't spend it anywhere, but when you get an opportunity, it's a nice big free meal.

Or, to put it another way, what would you rather have, $40 in cash, or a $50 gift certificate to a restaurant whose nearest location is 500 miles away?

In theory, the gift card is better, because you get more loot, but in practice, you're never actually going to spend that gift card, while you'd actually get some use out of the cash. In fact, this is the problem with gift cards at all, even to ones with more convenient locations. They're always inferior to cash because of the restrictions on their use.

Polonius wrote:I've found that a canny opponent will often ignore a chimera with a HB in assault, because there's a hard limit on the damage it can cause.

So, let's break this down.

Firstly, we're talking about an opponent who is getting into assault with your chimeras. What kind of units are these? Well, if they're Sv4+, then they would have been chewed up pretty badly by heavy bolters and the vets inside (much less the entire rest of your army) before they even made it to close combat. If they're Sv3+ or better, then those heavy flamers are going to be roughly as useless as the heavy bolter. So you hit five marines with a heavy flamer. So what, you only killed one. That sarge with the meltabombs or all those krak grenades are still going to eat the chimera for lunch. What was really gained here by the heavy flamer?

Secondly, getting your tanks into close combat? What horde armies are rushing across the field anymore to get into close combat? None that can't be easily beaten off. What non-horde armies aren't going to be shooting your tanks to death long before they make it into close combat? Who is even doing cross-field charges, even with Sv3+?

What you're talking about makes sense internally, but I don't see how it actually applies to reality.

Polonius wrote:Adding snap fire, and lowering cover to 5+ much of the time makes the humble heavy bolter merely humble, as opposed to nearly worthless.

And don't forget focus firing, so the Ap can be useful now. Also, you can glance vehicles to death with a heavy bolter - vehicles which you are really unlikely to ever have in heavy flamer range. And that's on top of advantages it has always had.

I feel that it's more like heavy flamers were the best of three terrible options in 5th ed. Some of the things that made the other options terrible have been done away with in 6th, while heavy flamers haven't gotten any better. I suppose it's less a matter of "why still the heavy flamer?" and more one of "why not the heavy bolter?"

CaptainGrey wrote:Any Chimera forcing upfield should take a HF.

But why? Just because you are shortening the odds that they'll get to fire the hull weapon doesn't mean that you're making the odds short. Plus, with the heavy flamer you're more beholden to charge, while the heavy bolter gives you more flexibility. And the heavy bolter still gets to shoot when you charge in, even if you never make it into flamer range.

I would agree with the pillbox HB combo is probably best for that purpose.

If you cannot deploy max distance from your enemy then a HF is usually going to be more useful.

Ailros I like your threads but you do tend to get unnecessarily combative with vast overstatements like multiplying bunts by 10. I understand the point you are trying to make but overstatements only help if you have a large media outlet to re-regurgitation them. This combativeness tends to hurt your point and leads to the above discourteous statements about "ailros threads". These posts shouldn't pop up as the threads usually do end up being interesting.

It is an interesting thread though and perhaps some people will get some real utility from HHBs. Also more people might remember to fire their snap shots w/ HB which many players seem to "forget" as it has been shown there is an extra edge there to be gained. I may have to try subbing a few if I even dig my chimera's out again.

Penal legion on the other hand can and have won games by getting line breaker and sometimes capturing an objective so they are technically "a tournament winning unit"

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:Any Chimera forcing upfield should take a HF.

But why? Just because you are shortening the odds that they'll get to fire the hull weapon doesn't mean that you're making the odds short. Plus, with the heavy flamer you're more beholden to charge, while the heavy bolter gives you more flexibility. And the heavy bolter still gets to shoot when you charge in, even if you never make it into flamer range.

If your Chimera is ever within 20 inches of an Aegis line, or units in Area Terrain, you can put down Heavy Flamer wounds in one turn.

Anytime you field Chimeras that will be moving upfield, you likely will be in such a situation by turn 2/3.

Chimeras moving up-field: HF.

Chimeras that will be sitting backfield, or even midfield: HB.

That is your answer, Ailaros.

Also, no one fields Banewolves because each one is taking up a slot that could be a Vendetta. It's the same reason Sentinels, Rough Riders, and the other Hellhound variants are all but extinct in competitive 40k.