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People think the CSM codex is cheese?




Tell them to grow a pair and learn to actually play the game.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Abaddon, meet Ghazghkull. Ghazghkull, meet Abaddon. You were saying?

Of all the ICs, Ghaz is actually one of the closest to being able to punk Abbadon. The reason for this is his ability to get a 2++ for two rounds of combat. If Ghaz can set it up so he gets both rounds in his duel with Abbadon he will win.

The problem, of course, is that rarely happens. My buddy plays Ghaz and I face him once every other week. What always happens is this. Ghaz charges forward with 4 mega-nobs. I challenge with a PM aspiring champion if he popped his Waaaagh. Abbadon challenges on round two. That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

If he waits until Abbadon has stepped up to the Challange, the PM champion will use his "Glorius Intervention" ability (p65 brb) to take the second round of 2++ saves for Abbadon. Since usually Ghaz does the charging, its Abbadon's turn on the second round, allowing the PM champion to do this.

Ghaz has many of the key elements to make him a beast in a duel.
* High damage output
* High damage resistance (2++ for two rounds!)
* EW
* High STR for insta-death
Hes good, really good actually. Only a few ICs can beat him, and Abbadon is one of them.

This topic is covered in great detail in this thread...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/504016.page

Suppose if this happens:

Ghazghkull charges but doesn't challenge. Abaddon challenges and Ghazghkull accepts. They fight each other, and the Meganobz completely smash the Plague Marines because that's what they do. Next turn there's no Plague Champion to take the Challenge, letting Ghazghkull go to town.

And suppose the Ork player isn't dumb and runs Ghazghkull with something that makes sense, such as a Boy squad? Then you'd have a Nob to take the challenge for Ghaz as well. Running Ghazghkull with 5 Meganobz is silly because it's just too much overkill. You want to split your threats; if you have one Trukk (or even a BW) with Ghazghkull and five Meganobz in it, what do you thing the enemy's going to shoot first?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ghazghkull charges but doesn't challenge. Abaddon challenges and Ghazghkull accepts. They fight each other, and the Meganobz completely smash the Plague Marines because that's what they do. Next turn there's no Plague Champion to take the Challenge, letting Ghazghkull go to town.

4 meganobs are unlikely to smash 10 plague marines.
Each meganob has 3 attacks. They do not get an extra attack due to the lack of CCW. That means they 4 MANZ will hit 6 times, wounding 5 of them. The PMs will make 1/3 of their FNP saves, resulting in 3.33 PMs dead. To reasonably guarantee a kill of the PMs, you need to bring 13 MANZ. The morale of the story here is that PMs are f'ing tough!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And suppose the Ork player isn't dumb and runs Ghazghkull with something that makes sense, such as a Boy squad? Then you'd have a Nob to take the challenge for Ghaz as well. Running Ghazghkull with 5 Meganobz is silly because it's just too much overkill. You want to split your threats; if you have one Trukk (or even a BW) with Ghazghkull and five Meganobz in it, what do you thing the enemy's going to shoot first?

Hey, are you going to be at Adepticon or NOVA this year? If so, I want to introduce you to my friend who does just that. He brings Ghaz with 4 MANZ in a truuk and a MegaNob armored warboss with 4 MANZ in another truuk. If you have the time, take some time to watch Keith play. You may be suprised at just how effective this is. I know as I play him about twice a month, and those 10 models are always causing a lot of pressure on my army.

Edit : I see you live in Sweden, so I don't know if you will come for either of those events, but if you do let me know. Ill introduce you and even buy you a beer for crossing the pond.

There are a couple of things that make it work extremely well.
* Truuks have ramshackle. He does not care if they die. There is rarely a drawback for him driving the damn things 10" away from me.
* He puts a reinforced ram on each one. This means he has a 35/36 chance of ignoring terrain. He drives through ruins like its not even there.
* He hides his two truuks if he goes second. First they are behind an aegis, secondly their away from my fire support. He often starts them behind ruins.
* MANZ are extremely good with 6th edition rules. 2+ saves mean most weapons now bounce, and the power claws with 2 wounds are very good for 40 points.
* Warbosses in mega armor are extremely good for their point cost.
* They are not overly expensive death stars. Thats about 730 points for excellent pressure units. In a 1850 game that leaves him with over 1000 points of lootas, shoota boys, grots etc...
* Sometimes he will just reserve them. He often brings a comm-relay with his ADL so they don't get stuck in reserve.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ghazghkull charges but doesn't challenge. Abaddon challenges and Ghazghkull accepts. They fight each other, and the Meganobz completely smash the Plague Marines because that's what they do. Next turn there's no Plague Champion to take the Challenge, letting Ghazghkull go to town.

Aside from the fact that you're overestimating the Meganobz, who cares about the Plague Champion? Abby and Ghaz are still in a challenge together.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ghazghkull charges but doesn't challenge. Abaddon challenges and Ghazghkull accepts. They fight each other, and the Meganobz completely smash the Plague Marines because that's what they do. Next turn there's no Plague Champion to take the Challenge, letting Ghazghkull go to town.

Aside from the fact that you're overestimating the Meganobz, who cares about the Plague Champion? Abby and Ghaz are still in a challenge together.

Yes, but now there's no Champion to rob Ghazghkull of a round's worth of 2++.

Not something to count on since it'll fail 1/3 of the time, but I can see that.

Not that it matters - I'm pretty sure Abby would still win even without the intervention.

rigeld2 wrote:
Not something to count on since it'll fail 1/3 of the time, but I can see that.

Not that it matters - I'm pretty sure Abby would still win even without the intervention.

Actually, they on average kill each other the same turn, which means it comes down to the guy getting the charge. Bear in mind that Ghazghkull is 40-ish points cheaper as well.

rigeld2 wrote:Not that it matters - I'm pretty sure Abby would still win even without the intervention.

If Ghaz does not have his Waaaagh, then its a no-contest. However, with the Waagh its a very close fight.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Actually, they on average kill each other the same turn, which means it comes down to the guy getting the charge. Bear in mind that Ghazghkull is 40-ish points cheaper as well.

- I think there was a translation error. What AlmightyWalrus ment to say was that it's very close. They can't kill each other on the same turn since Abbadon is I6 and Ghaz is I1.

The reason that Ghaz is 40 points cheaper is because he is not as good
- Ghaz is slow and purposeful
- Ghaz is truely a monster for 2 combat rounds of waaagh. After that his durability drops dramatically.
As I mentioned earlier, Ghaz is extremely good. Hes a contender for the 2nd best IC in the game. (Logan is also extremely good)

Just my two cents, but the Ghaz v Abaddon is assuming Abaddon didn't slay some characters earlier and hasn't gotten any buffs.

True. Probably the best boon buff is the one that lets you re-roll armor saves. That ones is completely broken when applied to an IC like Abbadon.

The real takeaways here are that a few codex's win when it comes to awesome ICs. Chaos and Orks are two of them.

What does it take to make awesome ICs?
- AP2 weapon
- Armor save of 2+
- 4 wounds
- 4++ or better save
- Lots of attacks (at least 5)
- Ability to cause ID (Skulltaker's method or doubling out T4/T5)
- EW
The more of these criteria that an IC meets, the more bad-ass they will be.

I think the hate for drakes comes from lack of counters. For instance, I as a new player don't even know what to use to kill them aside from the agies quad gun in any of my codecies. I probably have to take a look and see what else is available as far as skyfire on weapons, or read a flyer counter summary if any are available. I don't let my lack of knowledge get the better of me and lash out saying they are OP, like it appears some people do.

My wife and I just got the CSM codex and are starting an army to double team against so we are looking stuff over and getting a feel. I actually cannot get the CSM army to challenge us yet. I have mostly been doing plague marines with nurgle terminators but they just get tabled. I think I just need to get more experiance and get the CSM army more competative. We even have the CSM running a list with 100 more points than our two lists combined.

Anyone remember the hundreds of threads saying CSM was "mid tier" as soon as it entered the scene? People were sure that it couldn't be made more than mediocre.

Funny how things turn out.

 Condas wrote:
I think the hate for drakes comes from lack of counters. For instance, I as a new player don't even know what to use to kill them aside from the agies quad gun in any of my codecies. I probably have to take a look and see what else is available as far as skyfire on weapons, or read a flyer counter summary if any are available. I don't let my lack of knowledge get the better of me and lash out saying they are OP, like it appears some people do.

My wife and I just got the CSM codex and are starting an army to double team against so we are looking stuff over and getting a feel. I actually cannot get the CSM army to challenge us yet. I have mostly been doing plague marines with nurgle terminators but they just get tabled. I think I just need to get more experiance and get the CSM army more competative. We even have the CSM running a list with 100 more points than our two lists combined.

@2000 points

1 Biomany M3 DP with Black Mace and wings,PA
1 JuggerLord with 5 spawn as an escort (don't put a mark on the spawn)

3 Squads of Cultists
1 Squad Slaanesh/FNP CSM

2 Squads Nurgle Bikes

2 Heldrakes

1 Vindicator

ADL with Quad

There isn't a lack of counters to Helldrakes. You don't need Skyfire to counter flyers.

All you really need is either quantity of fire, or twin-linked fire power.

Twin-linked snap shots are statistically the same as BS2.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Anyone remember the hundreds of threads saying CSM was "mid tier" as soon as it entered the scene? People were sure that it couldn't be made more than mediocre.

Funny how things turn out.

The CSM codex is a bunch of medicore units with a few real star player units.
Helldrake does as Helldrake pleases.
Abbadon will take your lunch money.

And there were some very vocal players dissing the Demon Princes being T5. Saying they were worthless and anyone who fielded one was a fool.

rigeld2 wrote:
And there were some very vocal players dissing the Demon Princes being T5. Saying they were worthless and anyone who fielded one was a fool.

Depending on your Meta, Princes are a very bad investment. Tau will insta-punk them, dreads in CC will insta-kill them, Necrons and Guard just shoot them out of the sky through sheer volume of fire.

Right now, the one thing they have over the Heldrake is that they have some good AP2 melee options, but given the excess of 3++ saves on tough stuff that matters, it's not a sure investment. If you just want to kill tacticals or hordes, he's not your guy.

Try taking any other sort of DP aside from black mace with wings. Will they be worth the investment then.

The CSM codex itself is OP.

That cover art?
Hardcover?
And the quality of it when you flip through it.

If sisters got a book like that, I'd throw my GK in the woodchipper, because daddy wants a proper book to sagely flip through while schooling the kids.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There isn't a lack of counters to Helldrakes. You don't need Skyfire to counter flyers.

All you really need is either quantity of fire, or twin-linked fire power.

Twin-linked snap shots are statistically the same as BS2.

big deal, you then need to pen, which is another 5+ for str 8, then you need to roll well on the damage result. you need to roll a 5+ three times to actually destroy it BUT WAIT, it then gets an invuln save and then it can also recover hull points.

a single drake could easily wipe out 1000+ points of a non optimized army.

kb305 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There isn't a lack of counters to Helldrakes. You don't need Skyfire to counter flyers.

All you really need is either quantity of fire, or twin-linked fire power.

Twin-linked snap shots are statistically the same as BS2.

big deal, you then need to pen, which is another 5+ for str 8, then you need to roll well on the damage result. you need to roll a 5+ three times to actually destroy it BUT WAIT, it then gets an invuln save and then it can also recover hull points.

a single drake could easily wipe out 1000+ points of a non optimized army.

That is my concern. Other fliers, okay you might be safe without it.

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Just my two cents, but the Ghaz v Abaddon is assuming Abaddon didn't slay some characters earlier and hasn't gotten any buffs.

It's also assuming that Abaddon doesn't punch his own brains in, in which case it becomes a very one-sided fight.

kb305 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There isn't a lack of counters to Helldrakes. You don't need Skyfire to counter flyers.

All you really need is either quantity of fire, or twin-linked fire power.

Twin-linked snap shots are statistically the same as BS2.

big deal, you then need to pen, which is another 5+ for str 8, then you need to roll well on the damage result. you need to roll a 5+ three times to actually destroy it BUT WAIT, it then gets an invuln save and then it can also recover hull points.

a single drake could easily wipe out 1000+ points of a non optimized army.

Glancing hits remove hull points, while pens have a chance to instakill anything. Is there something special about the helldrake to render this incorrect? Because it sounds like three glances in one turn would take it down. (1/6 to hit, 3/6 to glance, 4/6 to get past the save, meaning about one in eighteen shots would remove a hullpoint (which is a ridiculous amount when talking about s8 weapons), and while this might not exactly be good, it's certainly not as bad as you're portraying it.)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Twin-linked snap shots are statistically the same as BS2.

Not quite, TL-snapshots have an 11/36 chance of hitting, while BS2 has a 12/36 chance of hitting. Small but subtle difference

Lmao.

The new chaos dex is not op in the slightest.

Mid ground at best, powerful with a good player.

I played against Chaos more than a dozen times with Deathwing using the 4th ed dex and went undefeated.

Even now I'm 2/0/0, both games wins against Chaos.

Puscifer wrote:


Even now I'm 2/0/0, both games wins against Chaos.

Holy gak that's a huge sample! Have you ever considered a career in science?

kb305 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

I'm going to have to ask for something more specific now. I showed your opinions to the players who have delivered said whines, and the Eldar player stated as much as "your arguments are invalid because you don't talk about the Eldar versus CSM specifically". Would you mind tossing about your thoughts about Eldar versus CSM?

Eldar on their own are rather frail. They're an older codex, and just about everything in the dex is overcosted at this point. Runes of Warding, Jetbikes and Eldrad are really the only things they have going for them. There are some really nasty combinations with Eldar and Dark Eldar though, in fact a Dark Eldar+Eldar list won the Onslaught GT.

EDIT:

To see you claim the Heldrake being powerful surprises me though. It's poorer BS makes the Hades Autocannons less appealing to me, leaving primarily as another anti infantry vehicle (albeit a flyer). Punching though the armour on flyers with AV12 isn't likely to succeed with its STR7 either in my opinion.

The Heldrake is far and away, the best unit in the CSM dex. Did you read the FAQ update? The Weapons are now turret mounted, and the distance is measured from the base. Vector Strikes also ignore cover. This is a very powerful combination. Yes, the Heldrake isn't spectacular against other flyers, but it is probably the best tool in the game for removing units from Objectives. The torrent rule lets you place the flamer where it needs to be, and it's wounding MEQs on a 2+, and not allowing them any saves. The Vector Strike can be used on lighter Vehicles like Rhinos, or other Infantry that you pass over. The Heldrake is also the most resilient flyer in the game, between the AV12, 5++ and IWND.

that's cheeseball. so much cheese. double cheese with extra parmesan.
i plan to start chaos but i wont take any drakes because that's just wrong. that and im not a fan of the model.

It can vector strike models it cant even draw line of sight on? what about models inside a building?

i also didnt realize it has 5++. ridiculous.

It can also vector strike other flyers.

Yesssss...let the hate flow through you.....

Puscifer wrote:Lmao.

The new chaos dex is not op in the slightest.

Mid ground at best, powerful with a good player.

I played against Chaos more than a dozen times with Deathwing using the 4th ed dex and went undefeated.

Even now I'm 2/0/0, both games wins against Chaos.

Sorry but this is a ridiculous argument. You very small sample size isn't indicative of anything. I could easily counter that I have beaten my fair share of DW players (both old and new) with the CSM codex and that proves nothing.

What will be interesting to see is how CSM are placing at major events like BAO, Adepticon and NOVA, amongst other major GTs in the US and elsewhere. There at least we start to draw a decent sample size.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Puscifer wrote:


Even now I'm 2/0/0, both games wins against Chaos.

Holy gak that's a huge sample! Have you ever considered a career in science?

I've not played many games with the new DA codex.

With my Loganwing I'm 5/0/0 and Draigowing 6/1/0.

And no troll, I never did consider a career in science. I'm too busy writing film scripts and going to film premieres.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My argument is that CSM just do not come to tourneys and games ready for mass 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've even seen Eldar and Tyranids forces utterly destroy csm forces.

I seriously think that csm have major weaknesses when facing a majority of the armies out there, unless they have an extremely well seasoned general at the helm.

I do not consider myself to be a great player and yet I regularly provide a challenge to tougher opponents with my CSM lists.

I have seen CSM table, (back to back no less) two different Dark Angels opponents. I was the CSM player. One of these opponents is a WAY more seasoned player than i am. So by your logic DA are worse than CSM?

Of course not.

People love to compare these things in vacuums. I would be more than happy to play my CSM against a Deathwing list.

I have PLENTY of answers to 2+ Armour.

I totally agree that there are a lot of answers to 2+ in a csm list.

I don't know if its just my local meta, but you rarely see an army built to slaughter a 2+ army.

CSM have plenty of answers, but some players don't take them.

CSM don't give me any issues, but Eldar always give me fits of rage.

But as you say, most of this is in a vacuum. A player who knows that there are/is a number of TEQ armies will build to take them out, as a number of anti TEQ builds tend to do fair to well against other types of army.