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 BarBoBot wrote:

 Blackgaze wrote:
This really comes more to deployment than actually taking difficult terrain tests.
Since he has a shooting army, his model's base JUST touch the very edge of the crater (like less than 10% of the base!)

it pisses me off, but I have no way to counter him.

It's a completely legal way of getting a cover save.

If its pissing you off your taking the game too seriously.

I think it's more of the case of the player himself, I'm not too fond of his attitude while playing, but i'm stuck with him sometimes so I can't play someone else at the time.
I've let go of terrain bits before, I know a Tyranid player who wants to use the most of cover, and i'm ok with that (maybe because we get along a bit better)

It's hard to describe, but this guy's a space marine player, but it's the way he deploys his units that abuse the barely touching rule, it's not as simple as having a 5-man squad at the edge, it's really hard to describe my playthrough, but it bother you if you saw it too.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I hope GW will address this in an FAQ. Basically monstrous creatures get a cover save if just a smidgeon of their base touchs terrain - even if an enemy unit has clear unobstructed LoS to the model... It's like the terrain is projecting an invisible forcefield. It's 100 percent legal but just doesn't seem right.

The whole game is a series of abstract rules to try and simulate warfare between a wide range of combatants in an igougo format. There will always be rough edges somewhere. In this case the main down side to being in terrain is having to roll a difficult/dangerous terrain check for movement. As long as they take the movement check they are getting the upside and the downside to being in area terrain. I don't see the problem.

I know that feeling. There's certain players I hate playing against (mostly because they're very competitive). I play to have fun, and if I'm not having fun, what's the point playing?

The best cover system was I think 3rd edition, the rules were so simple. Models were double tall and blocked LOS, Area terrain was infinitely tall and you could see 3 inches in or out of it. It was so simple, and it worked.

Assuming its area terrain - he gets the 5+ save but moves through difficult terrain.

If not area terrain the model must be obscured by the cover (eg behind a wall)

Do remember that you can selectively fire at targets which are NOT in cover.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're right - they do.
My base is in the terrain. 1/16" of it anyway.

so 15/16ts is not in terrain, looks like you have broken a rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You're right - they do.
My base is in the terrain. 1/16" of it anyway.

so 15/16ts is not in terrain, looks like you have broken a rule.

How? My base is in terrain. I've rolled to move into the terrain.
The only requirement is that my model is in terrain. That is demonstrably true.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You're right - they do.
My base is in the terrain. 1/16" of it anyway.

so 15/16ts is not in terrain, looks like you have broken a rule.

How? My base is in terrain. I've rolled to move into the terrain.
The only requirement is that my model is in terrain. That is demonstrably true.

Your base is also not in terrain.

Therefore, you are not in terrain, as there is a part of the base that does not fill the requirement.

Cite the requirement to be wholly in the terrain.
I've proven that I am in terrain. The rules only require me to be in terrain.
I've broken no rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite the requirement to be wholly in the terrain.
I've proven that I am in terrain. The rules only require me to be in terrain.
I've broken no rule.

But you have froken the rule, as the wording of In terrain is inclusive of the whole model.

This is because they say "Models in area terrain" (91)

They are talking about models, not parts of models, therefore they must mean the whole model.

Then they say they must be in area terrain. a model is only in area terrain if the whole model is in area terrain.

Really this is the exact same situation as the thread I linked about models moving onto the board.

The rules state that you have to be in terrain. if any part of the base is not in terrain then by default you have broken this rule.

You have to ask yourself "is this model in terrain" if the answer is yes, then you are within the rules, if the answer is yes and no (in the case of a partial in/out scenario) then you are not within the rules.

How can I have broken the rule when I can prove without any doubt that my base is in terrain?

Your stance is proven wrong by:
The picture on page 19 where the top and bottom Green circled orcs are granted a cover save despite not being wholly in terrain.
Measuring Distances - if a model is said to be within range, it is not the entire model that is within range, simply the closest point.
Charging Through Terrain on page 22 - the image shows a model that probably wouldn't have to be wholly in terrain requires a Difficult Terrain test. This ones iffy but I felt I was required to mention it.

You were wrong in that thread (RAW - it's now obvious what their intent in that situation was since they FAQed it) and you're wrong now.

rigeld2 wrote:
How can I have broken the rule when I can prove without any doubt that my base is in terrain?

Because I can prove without any doubt that the base is not in terrain.

P.S. The pic on P. 19 is inconclusive therefore it is not relevant.

Was not wrong then, and still not wrong now.

Pretend model only means part of the model all you want, but that is not linguistically correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
How can I have broken the rule when I can prove without any doubt that my base is in terrain?

Because I can prove without any doubt that the base is not in terrain.

That's a lie. The base is demonstrably in terrain. You can prove that the base is not wholly in the terrain feature, but that is not what is required in the BRB.

It is not a lie. "I can prove without any doubt that the base is not in terrain." is 100% true.

The base is also demonstrably not in terrain.

It is simultaneously in and not in terrain.

The rules require the model to be in terrain, and if any part of that model does not fit the requirement then the rule has been broken.

In for difficult terrain, in for cover.

Any part in = difficult terrain test.
Any part in = cover.

DR - can you agree that "in" when referring to terrain or range is a synonym of "within"?

Difficult terrain is different

"If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move." P. 90 brb.

Nothing about in, just something about entering and declaring if you want to enter.

I hope GW will address this in an FAQ. Basically monstrous creatures get a cover save if just a smidgeon of their base touchs terrain - even if an enemy unit has clear unobstructed LoS to the model... It's like the terrain is projecting an invisible forcefield. It's 100 percent legal but just doesn't seem right.

No. MCs follow the same rules as Vehicles. They have to be 25% obscured to get the Cover Saves. It doesn't even matter if the entire model is in Area terrain. If the area terrain the MC is in doesn't cover 25%, it would get cover save.

You stopped reading too early. Keep going.
Edit: ^ to DR


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saythings wrote:

I hope GW will address this in an FAQ. Basically monstrous creatures get a cover save if just a smidgeon of their base touchs terrain - even if an enemy unit has clear unobstructed LoS to the model... It's like the terrain is projecting an invisible forcefield. It's 100 percent legal but just doesn't seem right.

No. MCs follow the same rules as Vehicles. They have to be 25% obscured to get the Cover Saves. It doesn't even matter if the entire model is in Area terrain. If the area terrain the MC is in doesn't cover 25%, it would get cover save.

That's absolutely false in 6th edition.
If you disagree, cite the rule.

That's absolutely false in 6th edition.
If you disagree, cite the rule.

In BRB, Page 18

Under "Determining Cover Save"

Saythings wrote:

That's absolutely false in 6th edition.
If you disagree, cite the rule.

In BRB, Page 18

Under "Determining Cover Save"

the area terrain rules on p91 overrule this, explicitly stating that when in area terrain, you receive the cover save regardless of 25% obscured.

grrr

Hmm, GW sure does know how to write loop holes. I would have to say given all the text (at least described), as long as your model's base is "in" area terrain, you'd get the cover. The BRB even goes further into detail to make sure there are clear boundaries that identify when you are in the area terrain or not.

On another note, Ruins give a 4+ Cover save (on the 2nd floor and higher), but ruins on the base (or bottom level if there is no base) count as Area Terrain or Difficult terrain. Meaning if you are on the bottom level you simply get the 5+ for being "in" area terrain. (pg. 98). That's very interesting.

ruins will give you a cover save if you are on the ground floor and are 25% obscured by the ruin, but yes just being in a ruin with a base and not behind a wall or something will grant a area terrain cover save. You can go to ground in area terrain and get plus 2 to your cover save though

LOL so what if TMC get a cover save from being just a tiny bit in. Theres 0 range in the codex and for the first few turns we are weathering every type of high str low AP shot there is. U want MC to just fall over and die everytime their shot at?