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I agree with the OP: Relic is the toughest mission for IG to win, no matter what type of list you bring. There is just no good unit to go and get the relic, except maybe in a foot horde; some Marines in a Drop Pod could make sense.

What IG can do well in that mission is shoot down the relic carrier. Artillery is perfect for the job and can snipe the carrier on the late turns.

Aleinikov wrote:
I agree with the OP: Relic is the toughest mission for IG to win, no matter what type of list you bring. There is just no good unit to go and get the relic, except maybe in a foot horde; some Marines in a Drop Pod could make sense.

What IG can do well in that mission is shoot down the relic carrier. Artillery is perfect for the job and can snipe the carrier on the late turns.

So it then comes down to first blood, line breaker, and slay the warlord. IG is almost never going to get line breaker and first blood usually goes to whomever goes first. The tie breakers are even hard for IG to win unless they go first.

 Tomb King wrote:


So it then comes down to first blood, line breaker, and slay the warlord. IG is almost never going to get line breaker and first blood usually goes to whomever goes first. The tie breakers are even hard for IG to win unless they go first.

I get line breaker most games. However, I also lose Slay the Warlord most games.

I'll agree with first blood, it's a silly mechanic.

Can you just play Land Raider Spam and leave your guard at home

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Can you just play Land Raider Spam and leave your guard at home

Land Raider Spam is so "eh"

I also play mech heavy guard and at first I would struggle in Relic, until I decided to not go for the grab until turn 4 or 5 depending on if i went 1st or 2nd. I would moved around and focus my firepower on their scoring units so they couldn't capture the Relic. Since our troops are pretty cheap we usually out number their troops and can afford to lose some while they couldn't

As for Crusader (that is the one with only two objectives, each in the player's deployment zone right), I still havent figured out how to win that mission without having at least first blood.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Can you just play Land Raider Spam and leave your guard at home

Land Raider Spam is so "eh"

Dark angels are the only army that can pull it off reliably in a competitive environment.

BryllCream wrote:Now it happens in half of games, meaning assaulty armies get a free turn of protection against shooting.

What? An assaulty army exists to get CLOSER to you. When they move closer to you, they don't get nearly as much benefit from night fighting. The only way that they get any serious protection from night fighting is if they stay back out of 36" range of stuff. If an assault-based army is deciding to spend turn one mulling about in their deployment zone, then you've already won.

Not that there are that many assault armies that are going to cross the board to get into close combat anymore anyways...

Tomb King wrote:The way guard play has changed in 6th edition.

And you have to change with it. Taking a hybrid guard list that relies on throwing demo charges out of vendettas isn't going to work very well anymore. Either you've got to change over to a new style of guard that works with the current rules edition or, as you say, drop guard altogether for the rest of this edition.

Guard can still cut it, you just have to be willing to play guard in one of the ways that they excel in this edition.

Tomb King wrote:As a guard player what is your solution for games like relic and crusade?

Crusade is just as easy as scouring or big guns. Did you mean Emperor's Will?

As for the relic, that one's easy. Just treat it like any old objective-based mission, except that there's only one objective. Spend turns 1-4 killing your opponent, and then drive or walk up to it at the end of the game and plonk a couple of guys on it.

Worst case, you can always play conservatively and try for nothing more than to prevent your opponent from capturing the relic, and go for the win on secondaries. I recently played a game against a dual-wing DA player that my particular guard army was really, really not optimized to beat. I just played it safe, killed his scoring units, and worked as hard as I could to get first blood and linebreaker while preserving my warlord.

It's a change for the good. Mech IG who just sat still and didn't move a single unit until T4 was a dreadful list - I played foot IG a little in 5th and at least participated in all phases of the game.

I don't think the new rules are that bad for IG vehicles as stunlocking is no longer a viable tactic against them - certainly Russes are far more viable now.

Saying an IG can't get linebreaker is just silly, they are as capable as anyone else of moving forward 25" over 5 turns. If not the guard themselves then allies can do the job. Relic is won by who owns the relic last not who gets it first. Anyone who hits centre board will be in range of all your shooting.

My main army was stealer heavy/null deployment Nids in 5th, so ripping up my army list and starting again is something I did within a few weeks of 6th coming out.

One change from sixth that people often overlook is wound allocation. IG took a big hit and mech guard took it the worst. Now when you decide to come out of your chimeras the teeth of your unit is much more vulnerable to fire than before. This is even more relavent with melta because of its short range. Plasma gives you range but will claim your gunnners in enoufh time. Add in precision shots in shooting and melee , barrage and it becomes more difficult for guard to stay on the table.

returning to the game and beginning on the forums... but I enjoyed this thread. The games I played in 5th were mostly DA and Apoc, but in 2nd,3rd and the beginning of 4th I was all guard all the time. I am dusting those minis off to create a list and enter an escalation league here locally.

My two cents, you play the game because it is a challenge. If winning was easy everyone would do it. If anything, hearing these challenges only made me think how can I overcome them. IF you want winning to be easy find a game that doesn't require thinking, I hear Zombie Dice is easy and almost completely luck based.

 ruminator wrote:

I don't think the new rules are that bad for IG vehicles as stunlocking is no longer a viable tactic against them - certainly Russes are far more viable now.

Stunlocking can still happen, just not on a glance. The only time you're better off is if taking a single glancing hit pretty much and haven't taken any hits before that, otherwise you're dead or nearly so.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tomb King wrote:The way guard play has changed in 6th edition.

And you have to change with it. Taking a hybrid guard list that relies on throwing demo charges out of vendettas isn't going to work very well anymore. Either you've got to change over to a new style of guard that works with the current rules edition or, as you say, drop guard altogether for the rest of this edition.

Guard can still cut it, you just have to be willing to play guard in one of the ways that they excel in this edition.

Tomb King wrote:As a guard player what is your solution for games like relic and crusade?

Crusade is just as easy as scouring or big guns. Did you mean Emperor's Will?

As for the relic, that one's easy. Just treat it like any old objective-based mission, except that there's only one objective. Spend turns 1-4 killing your opponent, and then drive or walk up to it at the end of the game and plonk a couple of guys on it.

Worst case, you can always play conservatively and try for nothing more than to prevent your opponent from capturing the relic, and go for the win on secondaries. I recently played a game against a dual-wing DA player that my particular guard army was really, really not optimized to beat. I just played it safe, killed his scoring units, and worked as hard as I could to get first blood and linebreaker while preserving my warlord.

Sorry begin rant! As for switching up the list. Obviously I have switched up the list. I have still managed a 9-3 GT(4th Midwest massace, & 2nd bracket at FoB) record and a 3-0 RTT record in the new format. It isnt exactly my first rodeo. I am still damn good with my guard army and have placed higher then any other guard players in each of the GT's I have entered. However, I have to come to a conclusion that maybe i am just too attached to my guard rather then trying to build a good TAC list for the current mission sets. To take guard with the current 6th edition missions is to handicap myself on at least 33% of the missions. Could I still compete with my guard... most definitely. Do I need to handicap myself for a GT featuring 6th edition missions... Ide rather not drive that far to have relic or emperor's will defeat me on turn 1.

To plan to win a game on secondaries alone is not a sound strategy when the player going first usually scores one of the secondaries to start off the game. In addition, to claim that relic is an easy mission for guard makes me question your experience with the mission in a competitive environment(no offense intended just an observation). The good old don't worry about and hope my opponent leaves all his eggs out of the basket it doesn't work for GT's and RTT. At least not in the later rounds. Sorry end rant!

 ruminator wrote:
It's a change for the good. Mech IG who just sat still and didn't move a single unit until T4 was a dreadful list - I played foot IG a little in 5th and at least participated in all phases of the game.

I don't think the new rules are that bad for IG vehicles as stunlocking is no longer a viable tactic against them - certainly Russes are far more viable now.

Saying an IG can't get linebreaker is just silly, they are as capable as anyone else of moving forward 25" over 5 turns. If not the guard themselves then allies can do the job. Relic is won by who owns the relic last not who gets it first. Anyone who hits centre board will be in range of all your shooting.

My main army was stealer heavy/null deployment Nids in 5th, so ripping up my army list and starting again is something I did within a few weeks of 6th coming out.

Yes, my 5th edition list are definitely a thing of the past. Only a few things that didn't really change stayed in the list. As for moving 25" in 5 turns. A 5+ save isnt as good as it used to be. Especially now that people are favoring more troops on the ground. Also, you can take mounted troops to try and take line breaker but with a side armor of 10 it is hard to keep that vehicle alive for the trip.

A 10 man plague marine(or any marine) squad in a rhino or LR can capture a relic turn 1 and then if need be block los to them with vehicles. Can your current guard army kill them before they get in a ride(rhino or LR) to pull back to their side. Even if you manage to kill them in subsequent turns the objective is now ever farther away and in your opponents deployment zone.

A vet squad could try and do the same but your pushing a lot to the center of the board and most players will chomp at the bits to see a GEQ in the center of the board.

Glocknall wrote:One change from sixth that people often overlook is wound allocation. IG took a big hit and mech guard took it the worst.

And wound allocation hurt foot guard WAY more. The fact that your argument rests on guardsmen not being in a transport is in itself a testament to this.

Tomb King wrote:to claim that relic is an easy mission for guard makes me question your experience with the mission in a competitive environment

Practically the only thing I can seem to roll is purge and relic. Of the games of relic I've played, I've seen the relic actually picked up and moved somewhere twice. Only once has it gone more than 6". Every other time I've played, and every other time I've seen someone else play it, the end result is the same - one player foolishly goes for the relic and is butchered. The other player, once he's done doing his killing, saunters on at the end. That or both players go for secondaries, because they're smart.

Honestly, the fact that you have to get there in your movement phase (not by the end of the turn), and the fact that you can't run once you've picked up the objective, and you're looking at a suicidal charge at the relic, a suicidal turn of standing on the relic, hoping that your opponent doesn't kill the model that's holding it (because then you have to start all over), and then hoping that your opponent doesn't shoot at the relic squad after they've got it as they slowly move for cover is really, really going about playing relic games the wrong way.

Tomb King wrote:However, I have to come to a conclusion that maybe i am just too attached to my guard rather then trying to build a good TAC list

I think you've found your answer to your original question. You are too sentimental about your guard army to play it competitively. Either you've got to change the way you view your guard army, stop playing competitively, or find a different army.

There's not much else you can do.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tomb King wrote:However, I have to come to a conclusion that maybe i am just too attached to my guard rather then trying to build a good TAC list

I think you've found your answer to your original question. You are too sentimental about your guard army to play it competitively. Either you've got to change the way you view your guard army, stop playing competitively, or find a different army.

There's not much else you can do.

Sentimental is the wrong word. I love the way the guard play common to popular belief they are a very finesse army. I have established myself as a guard player it is the army that got me to the level i am currently at. Has anyone had much luck with guard in 6th edition? It has been a while since I have seen guard win a big tournament. I would love to keep playing the guard as my primary army GT army... Just hate the idea of having to switch up armies because of imo piss poor missions sets. Ide rather play old dawn of war then relic or emperor's will. I actually look forward to kill point games.

Why not switch the core of your army? Run iG as primary to take advantage of all their support units (hands down best in game) and run an ally with excellent troops. There are a lot of options there, but DA and GK come to mind. I would think GK SS and Raven Wing squadrons would pair really well with IG.

 Tomb King wrote:
I love the way the guard play common to popular belief they are a very finesse army. I have established myself as a guard player it is the army that got me to the level i am currently at. Has anyone had much luck with guard in 6th edition?

Guard are no longer about finesse. They are about:

-Exploiting cheesy units (Vendettas, Vultures, Sabre Platforms, Heavy Artillery Carriages)
-Exploiting Allies (Double Rune-Priest allied contingents casting Prescience)
-Gunline Dakka (Heavy Weapon Blobs, Artillery) mixed with Flyers providing your list's mobility
-The Aegis Line

No longer finesse. IG are a hammer. Smash your opponents by bringing more awesome units than they did.

I disagree completely with calling the Guard no longer top-tier. Sure their mech list is dead, but the guard have a capacity for spamming like no other. The vendetta is arguably the best flier in the game, the Manticore is still great, and the basic guardsmen is, point per point, very good.

 Living Still wrote:
Why not switch the core of your army? Run iG as primary to take advantage of all their support units (hands down best in game) and run an ally with excellent troops. There are a lot of options there, but DA and GK come to mind. I would think GK SS and Raven Wing squadrons would pair really well with IG.

I have though about dark angels but they are very expensive for what they bring. I have also tried sisters of battle(feast of blades), and Space wolves(midwest massacre). So far the best ally was sisters of battle but I would like to take them in bigger games only where I can afford to take what is needed to supplement my army without losing valuable units from my original list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I disagree completely with calling the Guard no longer top-tier. Sure their mech list is dead, but the guard have a capacity for spamming like no other. The vendetta is arguably the best flier in the game, the Manticore is still great, and the basic guardsmen is, point per point, very good.

Before 6th edition the vendetta was the best flyer in the game. Now I would have to lean towards the night scythe as the best flier in the game due to its ability to move 36" and drop troops in a safe manner. In a book where 5 of 6 missions are objective based that is a huge advantage.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Guard are no longer about finesse.

Were IG ever about finesse? I don't know about the old codex, but 5th edition IG was always about mathammering the most firepower possible into a given point value and wiping your opponent off the table with it.

Don't drop the IG. You know your army very well, now is time to think outside the box. Read again the missions of BRB and how you can create new tactics to be more competitive/brutal.... you never lose, you learn from your mistake

hellpato wrote:
Don't drop the IG. You know your army very well, now is time to think outside the box. Read again the missions of BRB and how you can create new tactics to be more competitive/brutal.... you never lose, you learn from your mistake

Actually I was just talking to my buddy Spag about it. I don't really have the time to paint up the models needed or at least that is my excuse. It looks like I am gonna give the 56th MID another go. I will be running my IG with Space wolves allied in for the Indy Open. Missions be damned, my ig have always been able to get the job done. I Figure if I cant overcome a little adversity with my guard then whats the point. I refused to play grey knights when they first came out because they imho made winning too easy at the time. Maybe I will run the crons at adepticon... who knows. I will have my list up this weekend for viewing and comments.

List posted... need feedback fast if I am going to make my IG happen. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509515.page#5317473