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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 03:43:46
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Which doesn't state the speed, only that they'd be "doomed to isolation". You're talking a number of small empires spread out across the galaxy. Yes, without the Dolmen Gates they'd be isolated. At the same time, they had waged a galaxy spanning war against a faction which commanded unequalled maneuverability. There's no way they could have remotedly waged that war without faster-than-light travel.
It's is his persona battleship so he must had some serious fleet guarding him ( not his entire armada, but I would assume the fleet of large size giving his position as leader of his dynasty ), if Space Marine fleet can go trough that then Imperial Navy can win them every day of the week. The Mars incident happened when several Necron ship just appeared in front of Mars Fleet and ignore it while landing on the surface of the planet, with their present FTL that is not possible and giving into account the incident with BT fleet Mars fleet would vaporize them before they touch the planet.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends where he was heading, depends on what he was expecting. How'd he escape, anyway? I'm also don't recall the flagship being called a battleship, so it could well have been a lighter class of Necron ship. Yeah, I know. We don't know what their present faster-than-light is. They could have dodged most of the firepower aimed at them. We don't know the different classes of ships the Necrons now have (they may have changed, or have new ones). Sure, judging by the passage with Helbrechts fleet the Necron ships seem less impressive. However, we don't know what ships the Black Templar possess, or how many of them. They already disregard the Codex Astartes in terms of size, so they may well have ships of a class they are not technically supposed to have. Could even have ancient technology on board. Either way, assuming that from one battle the Necrons are a non-threat against the Imperial Navy is a mistake.
It's painfully slow, read the paragraph that I offered. The text says "slow-voyaging ships stasis ships, dooming them to isolation". That sounds like FTL more slower or as slow as Tau one.
Doesn't matter, they could still apparently fight a galactic war. They can move fast enough (unless the communication network was more than just for communications, but that seems like a stretch as well).
I really hope we will get explanation for this in their new codex or anywhere in future. Cruddance wrote it so the man maybe get little ahead of himself ( like saying that the Leviathan is the last big Hive Fleet out there ).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Of course, that particular bit is rather out of place with the tyranids' normal portrayal, since if they could just up and drop completely invincible super-weapons into the fray whenever they came up against something that could fight back, and could defeat near-space-marine-strength forces fielded in guard-like numbers, they wouldn't lose whenever the guard could show up in time to fight them...
Yeah, it's a bad piece of background. But not as bad as the Doom of Malan'tai. The Deathleaper is pretty bad too. It's weird how the Tyranids alternate between have ludicrously powerful creatures and intelligence to rival the greatest Space Marine commanders to relying purely on superior numbers.
phantommaster wrote:Who knows what the Tau will do? Offer their help if the Imperium see's the Greater Good?
How would the Tau even find out? They're on the other side of the galaxy with limited mobility with negligible forces. They couldn't help.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Everybody in this discussion go to page 409 of your basic rule book and look at the bottom right hand corner of how big the Tyranid fleets compared to the milky way galaxy. Do you even realize the distances involved from one star system to the next?
Yeah but they really don't actually do much with those numbers. Any other united faction with those numbers of ships would quickly dominate the galaxy, the Tyranids are struggling.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 05:10:28
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Furious Fire Dragon
In my game room playing Specialist GW games
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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Which doesn't state the speed, only that they'd be "doomed to isolation". You're talking a number of small empires spread out across the galaxy. Yes, without the Dolmen Gates they'd be isolated. At the same time, they had waged a galaxy spanning war against a faction which commanded unequalled maneuverability. There's no way they could have remotedly waged that war without faster-than-light travel.
It's is his persona battleship so he must had some serious fleet guarding him ( not his entire armada, but I would assume the fleet of large size giving his position as leader of his dynasty ), if Space Marine fleet can go trough that then Imperial Navy can win them every day of the week. The Mars incident happened when several Necron ship just appeared in front of Mars Fleet and ignore it while landing on the surface of the planet, with their present FTL that is not possible and giving into account the incident with BT fleet Mars fleet would vaporize them before they touch the planet.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends where he was heading, depends on what he was expecting. How'd he escape, anyway? I'm also don't recall the flagship being called a battleship, so it could well have been a lighter class of Necron ship. Yeah, I know. We don't know what their present faster-than-light is. They could have dodged most of the firepower aimed at them. We don't know the different classes of ships the Necrons now have (they may have changed, or have new ones). Sure, judging by the passage with Helbrechts fleet the Necron ships seem less impressive. However, we don't know what ships the Black Templar possess, or how many of them. They already disregard the Codex Astartes in terms of size, so they may well have ships of a class they are not technically supposed to have. Could even have ancient technology on board. Either way, assuming that from one battle the Necrons are a non-threat against the Imperial Navy is a mistake.
It's painfully slow, read the paragraph that I offered. The text says "slow-voyaging ships stasis ships, dooming them to isolation". That sounds like FTL more slower or as slow as Tau one.
Doesn't matter, they could still apparently fight a galactic war. They can move fast enough (unless the communication network was more than just for communications, but that seems like a stretch as well).
I really hope we will get explanation for this in their new codex or anywhere in future. Cruddance wrote it so the man maybe get little ahead of himself ( like saying that the Leviathan is the last big Hive Fleet out there ).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Of course, that particular bit is rather out of place with the tyranids' normal portrayal, since if they could just up and drop completely invincible super-weapons into the fray whenever they came up against something that could fight back, and could defeat near-space-marine-strength forces fielded in guard-like numbers, they wouldn't lose whenever the guard could show up in time to fight them...
Yeah, it's a bad piece of background. But not as bad as the Doom of Malan'tai. The Deathleaper is pretty bad too. It's weird how the Tyranids alternate between have ludicrously powerful creatures and intelligence to rival the greatest Space Marine commanders to relying purely on superior numbers.
phantommaster wrote:Who knows what the Tau will do? Offer their help if the Imperium see's the Greater Good?
How would the Tau even find out? They're on the other side of the galaxy with limited mobility with negligible forces. They couldn't help.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Everybody in this discussion go to page 409 of your basic rule book and look at the bottom right hand corner of how big the Tyranid fleets compared to the milky way galaxy. Do you even realize the distances involved from one star system to the next?
Yeah but they really don't actually do much with those numbers. Any other united faction with those numbers of ships would quickly dominate the galaxy, the Tyranids are struggling.
Struggling? What makes you think they are struggling? Because a few scouts got killed you think they are struggling? The ONLY thing holding them back is that they don't have super fast ways to travel. That is it. The distances that are shown on that map are incredibly unimaginably huge. And they are covering every square inch of it with Tyranid ships! One tyranid ship holds billions of organisms both large and small. All of them bent on eating everything they find.
The hive fleet that attacked Macragge was nothing more than a scout fleet. The same with the one that attacked Iyanden. Those fleets are so small that they aren't even represented on the big map on page 409. What is represented is the amount of tyranids entering the galaxy at an alarming rate. Anyone that thinks the Imperium is winning a war against them are deluding themselves. The Imperium is winning battles against scout fleets, nothing more. The main bulk of the Tyranids are still out there. and they are unimaginably vast. they outnumber every living thing in the galaxy by billions to one if not more. That is evident simply by how much space they take up on that map.
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"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."
from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 05:46:41
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Norn Queen
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Miraclefish wrote:I don't know where you're getting your fluff from, but you've got the wrong end of the stick about most of this. For each point, I've included book sources - all of them well worth a read! The natural disasters thing has no basis in anything, plus most of the planets and moons would be entirely unaffected as they're inert, gas giants or the only areas in use are orbital platforms. Martian volcanoes have been dead millions, possibly billions, of years. (See Horus Heresy books, plus The Emperor's Gift, Inquisiton War....) 5th edition Tyranid codex, Narvhal entry. It specifically states due to the gravatic nature of the Narvhals travel, target planets are generally grappling with seismic upheaval when Tyranids arrive. That said, this is not ideal - it ruins the biosphere, the thing the Tyranids are going there for in the first place. Grade A terrible fluff from Cruddace. but it's now official, more official than Black Library books, being a studio source. Miraclefish wrote:The Shadow in the Warp doesn't affect psyker powers in the same way that pariahs or Eldar runes do, what it does do is block the Astronomicon and astropathic communications. It doesn't do this by power or force, merely by being a conglomeration of so many voices and creatures that it drowns out others. It's not an explosion or wave, it's more like the phone lines are jammed... (See Warriors of Ultramar) You are part right. Yes, it's drowning out communication via psychic means, causing any psyker who listens to it to go insane or die (official fluff, numerous codex entries about the Shadow in the Warp over the editions). The only psyker who has been able to even listen to it has been Tigerius (official fluff, a few Codex Space Marines entires over the editions). So yes, his theory about the majority of the psykers in the Sol system dying is accurate - though maybe not with exploding heads. Miraclefish wrote:It also doesn't block in-system communication as this is technological, rather than psyker-based. Read the Word Bearers books for a fantastic illustration of exactly what happens when all warp and psker activity is shut down in an entire star system. It doesn't cripple anything, It slows things down, and psykers can't use their powers, but they don't die or explode. (See Dark Creed) Again, psykers do die - see studio material, not Black Library material. Miraclefish wrote:As for whether it would block out the Astronomicon signal, nobody can guess. The Shadow was blocked it out before, but only on the far sides of the galaxy. The Emperor is incredibly powerful, though, so it may not be enough. (See Thousand Sons) The problem with this, again, is inconsistent Tyranid fluff. We have fluff describing systems 'going dark' from Tyranids arriving, with ships unable to leave due to the astronomican being blocked. We also have fluff with Space Marines doing 'fighting retreats', fighting Tyranids on a planet and leaving. They couldn't do this if the astronomican was blocked. The best you can glean from this contradictory fluff is would at least make warp travel extremely unreliable, trying to find bursts of the astronomican through the shadow like a ship trying to find signs of a lighthouse in a storm. Miraclefish wrote:And, of course, the Terran system is without any doubt the most heavily defended, armed and powerful region bar none. And there would be a lot of warning that the Tyranids were coming - as the shadow they cast can be detected in the Warp over many months and even years (see Caiphas Cain books) Anyway, the Orks are totally gonna stomp 'em.... </controvercial> And that is why the Tyranids probably won't attack it directly. While there's fluff about them being drawn to it, only two hive fleets, both minor, are making their way directly there. Once they get their gak pushed in by the defenses at Sol, the Hive Mind will likely look at ways to bleed the defences. Hitting support worlds like Forgeworlds and Agri worlds, for example. As for the Orks, one of the biggest waaghs in modern Ork fluff is in a stalemate with a single tendril of Leviathan. Not only that, new official fluff has Leviathan winning, having taken numerous continents from the Orks and systematically slaying new Warlords that pop up with the Swarmlord, which in turn destabilises them as they fight it out for a new Warlord. it's best to go with studio material than Black Library material when discussing fluff. Every BL author likes to put his own spin on things. Studio material, while still inconsistent, is 'from the horses mouth', so to speak.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/02/27 05:50:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 06:13:56
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Which doesn't state the speed, only that they'd be "doomed to isolation". You're talking a number of small empires spread out across the galaxy. Yes, without the Dolmen Gates they'd be isolated. At the same time, they had waged a galaxy spanning war against a faction which commanded unequalled maneuverability. There's no way they could have remotedly waged that war without faster-than-light travel.
It's is his persona battleship so he must had some serious fleet guarding him ( not his entire armada, but I would assume the fleet of large size giving his position as leader of his dynasty ), if Space Marine fleet can go trough that then Imperial Navy can win them every day of the week. The Mars incident happened when several Necron ship just appeared in front of Mars Fleet and ignore it while landing on the surface of the planet, with their present FTL that is not possible and giving into account the incident with BT fleet Mars fleet would vaporize them before they touch the planet.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends where he was heading, depends on what he was expecting. How'd he escape, anyway? I'm also don't recall the flagship being called a battleship, so it could well have been a lighter class of Necron ship. Yeah, I know. We don't know what their present faster-than-light is. They could have dodged most of the firepower aimed at them. We don't know the different classes of ships the Necrons now have (they may have changed, or have new ones). Sure, judging by the passage with Helbrechts fleet the Necron ships seem less impressive. However, we don't know what ships the Black Templar possess, or how many of them. They already disregard the Codex Astartes in terms of size, so they may well have ships of a class they are not technically supposed to have. Could even have ancient technology on board. Either way, assuming that from one battle the Necrons are a non-threat against the Imperial Navy is a mistake.
It's painfully slow, read the paragraph that I offered. The text says "slow-voyaging ships stasis ships, dooming them to isolation". That sounds like FTL more slower or as slow as Tau one.
Doesn't matter, they could still apparently fight a galactic war. They can move fast enough (unless the communication network was more than just for communications, but that seems like a stretch as well).
I really hope we will get explanation for this in their new codex or anywhere in future. Cruddance wrote it so the man maybe get little ahead of himself ( like saying that the Leviathan is the last big Hive Fleet out there ).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Of course, that particular bit is rather out of place with the tyranids' normal portrayal, since if they could just up and drop completely invincible super-weapons into the fray whenever they came up against something that could fight back, and could defeat near-space-marine-strength forces fielded in guard-like numbers, they wouldn't lose whenever the guard could show up in time to fight them...
Yeah, it's a bad piece of background. But not as bad as the Doom of Malan'tai. The Deathleaper is pretty bad too. It's weird how the Tyranids alternate between have ludicrously powerful creatures and intelligence to rival the greatest Space Marine commanders to relying purely on superior numbers.
phantommaster wrote:Who knows what the Tau will do? Offer their help if the Imperium see's the Greater Good?
How would the Tau even find out? They're on the other side of the galaxy with limited mobility with negligible forces. They couldn't help.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Everybody in this discussion go to page 409 of your basic rule book and look at the bottom right hand corner of how big the Tyranid fleets compared to the milky way galaxy. Do you even realize the distances involved from one star system to the next?
Yeah but they really don't actually do much with those numbers. Any other united faction with those numbers of ships would quickly dominate the galaxy, the Tyranids are struggling.
Struggling? What makes you think they are struggling? Because a few scouts got killed you think they are struggling? The ONLY thing holding them back is that they don't have super fast ways to travel. That is it. The distances that are shown on that map are incredibly unimaginably huge. And they are covering every square inch of it with Tyranid ships! One tyranid ship holds billions of organisms both large and small. All of them bent on eating everything they find.
The hive fleet that attacked Macragge was nothing more than a scout fleet. The same with the one that attacked Iyanden. Those fleets are so small that they aren't even represented on the big map on page 409. What is represented is the amount of tyranids entering the galaxy at an alarming rate. Anyone that thinks the Imperium is winning a war against them are deluding themselves. The Imperium is winning battles against scout fleets, nothing more. The main bulk of the Tyranids are still out there. and they are unimaginably vast. they outnumber every living thing in the galaxy by billions to one if not more. That is evident simply by how much space they take up on that map.
I'm calling bs. It's already been referenced that if Tyranid fleet sizes hold true the IoM would need to increase subscription levels by 500 percent to survive. They are not outnumbered billions to one. You want to say the IoM will lose? Sure. But don't exaggerate the disparity of forces.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 06:18:00
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Norn Queen
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Shlazaor wrote:I'm calling bs. It's already been referenced that if Tyranid fleet sizes hold true the IoM would need to increase subscription levels by 500 percent to survive. They are not outnumbered billions to one. You want to say the IoM will lose? Sure. But don't exaggerate the disparity of forces. You assume that 500% increase would bring them to a 1:1 comparison of ground forces or even naval forces. Incorrect. 500% increase to be able to statistically hold their ground. After that 500% increase, they'd still be outnumbered, just have sufficient numbers to hold on. Not billions to one, no, but still significantly outnumbered. When new fluff in the rulebook puts hundreds of thousands of hive ships to a hive fleet fleet, and millions of various Tyranid creatures to a hive ship, yeah, humanity is pretty outnumbered. Tyranids rely on numbers, and numbers they do have. In ample supply.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/02/27 06:19:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 14:04:40
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Furious Fire Dragon
In my game room playing Specialist GW games
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Call bs all you want. Look at the map. That should tell you all you need to know. The Tyranid fleets on that map are light years across. And the spaces filled by it are completely filled with tyranid ships. Each tyranid ship holds billions of organisms. No fleet in the entire imperium is large enough to cover light years of space. Neither are the orks, or Eldar or Necrons or any other race. The only ones who do have that kind of numbers are the Tyranids.
I'm not exagerrating at all. It's simply by looking at what space in the galaxy the hive fleet covers that you can tell how truely massive they are. Do you think that map has the tyranid fleets as being just a few hundred feet away from planets? Those stars you see in the galaxy picture are light years across from each other. And the fleets are going from one star to the next with no spaces in between unfilled by tryanid ships. How can you possibly say I'm exagerrating when the picture tells the whole story?
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"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."
from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 14:07:36
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Regular Dakkanaut
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-Loki- wrote: Shlazaor wrote:I'm calling bs. It's already been referenced that if Tyranid fleet sizes hold true the IoM would need to increase subscription levels by 500 percent to survive. They are not outnumbered billions to one. You want to say the IoM will lose? Sure. But don't exaggerate the disparity of forces.
You assume that 500% increase would bring them to a 1:1 comparison of ground forces or even naval forces. Incorrect.
500% increase to be able to statistically hold their ground. After that 500% increase, they'd still be outnumbered, just have sufficient numbers to hold on. Not billions to one, no, but still significantly outnumbered.
When new fluff in the rulebook puts hundreds of thousands of hive ships to a hive fleet fleet, and millions of various Tyranid creatures to a hive ship, yeah, humanity is pretty outnumbered. Tyranids rely on numbers, and numbers they do have. In ample supply.
You just put words in my mouth. Not to be rude but I challenge you to find anywhere in my post where I say or even hint that the Imperium would have a 1:1 advantage. As it stands you agreed to the only statement I did make which is that billions to one was a bs satistic. So I'm not really sure why your post was written to imply a contradiction to my own. Automatically Appended Next Post: Roadkill Zombie wrote:Call bs all you want. Look at the map. That should tell you all you need to know. The Tyranid fleets on that map are light years across. And the spaces filled by it are completely filled with tyranid ships. Each tyranid ship holds billions of organisms. No fleet in the entire imperium is large enough to cover light years of space. Neither are the orks, or Eldar or Necrons or any other race. The only ones who do have that kind of numbers are the Tyranids.
I'm not exagerrating at all. It's simply by looking at what space in the galaxy the hive fleet covers that you can tell how truely massive they are. Do you think that map has the tyranid fleets as being just a few hundred feet away from planets? Those stars you see in the galaxy picture are light years across from each other. And the fleets are going from one star to the next with no spaces in between unfilled by tryanid ships. How can you possibly say I'm exagerrating when the picture tells the whole story?
Because I have stated fluff that contradicts you as opposed to conjecture derived from a picture.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 14:10:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 14:39:20
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
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Being a bit more serious, if the Tyranids got to the Sol System, the Imperium would die. That's more or less the final word on it, considering knock-on effects of such an invasion. Not only would the Imperium die, but probably the Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons... Chaos would be the only force left standing, and even they would have to retreat back into the Warp to survive. The sheer numbers are against everything. Like Roadkill said, the Tyranid Hive Fleets are massive. Stupidly, stupidly massive. Hive Fleet Leviathan has already wreaked some serious damage and that's only a tiny part of it. And they're coming from 3 angles at once. If they were to reach the Sol System, the Milky Way would die. Not in a mad rush, but in a long, drawn out whimper. Tyranids are oversized, carnivorous locusts. And we all know what locusts can do. [sarcasm]Yay for Grimdark.[/sarcasm]
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 14:39:43
Currently attempting to put together a homebrew non-canon Space Marine chapter. If I can be bothered to getting around to painting the models and putting the things together of course... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 20:04:22
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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And we all know what locusts can do.
Die in massive numbers to deployed insecticides? They're bad in places that lack access to such things. The Deathwatch, however, has proven itself rather adept at deploying such things.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 21:42:21
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
Philippines
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Epic battle ensues is what happens
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Your honor is your life, let non dispute it! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 22:21:12
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The might of the God-Emporer overwhelms their pathetic hive-mind and they literally just die.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 22:26:42
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Norn Queen
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Psienesis wrote:And we all know what locusts can do.
Die in massive numbers to deployed insecticides? They're bad in places that lack access to such things. The Deathwatch, however, has proven itself rather adept at deploying such things.
Which, in any given fluff, only work once and then they adapt to it. Unlike locusts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 23:01:32
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Executing Exarch
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Call the exterminator...er nurgle?
Actually having that space filled every inch with ships would have a gravitic force that would draw the entire galaxy toward it. The entire fleet would probably collapse into several stars or the fleet would have to use so much energy opposing its own gravity that it would burn through itself in no time at all. For an example the average denisty of the milky way galaxy is ~10^-23 gram cm^-3 your proposed density is on the order of ~0.5 to 0.005 gram cm^-3 (BTW this density is pretty close to that of a planet and is even larger than an asteroid belt) assuming tyranids are more dense than water, a single light year would be 5.0e50 kilograms or ~2 Solar mass or two of our own suns in a single light year cube. The mass of the fleet at the density you propose would be a super dense galaxy which would collapse into its own center as it creates one heck of a super black hole.
Where is this every inch is covered with ships coming from? If that is right then it is one of the worst thought out fluff pieces in the game when taken in any scientific context.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/27 23:05:08
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ansacs wrote:Call the exterminator...er nurgle?
Actually having that space filled every inch with ships would have a gravitic force that would draw the entire galaxy toward it. The entire fleet would probably collapse into several stars or the fleet would have to use so much energy opposing its own gravity that it would burn through itself in no time at all. For an example the average denisty of the milky way galaxy is ~10^-23 gram cm^-3 your proposed density is on the order of ~0.5 to 0.005 gram cm^-3 ( BTW this density is pretty close to that of a planet and is even larger than an asteroid belt) assuming tyranids are more dense than water, a single light year would be 5.0e50 kilograms or ~2 Solar mass or two of our own suns in a single light year cube. The mass of the fleet at the density you propose would be a super dense galaxy which would collapse into its own center as it creates one heck of a super black hole.
Where is this every inch is covered with ships coming from? If that is right then it is one of the worst thought out fluff pieces in the game when taken in any scientific context.
Grimdark
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 00:57:50
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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People see maps of the 40K galaxy and think that is how the galaxy actually looks.
It doesn't. The image of the galaxy is even captured from an extra-galactic view, which the Imperium is not capable of. They might as well have drawn it on paper, and scribbled "Here be Bugs" at the edges where they think the Tyranids are coming from. The maps we have of people's sketches of Europe in the Dark Ages has more in common with maps of the Imperium in the 41st Millennia than actual stellar spectrographs and star-charts.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 05:57:02
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Furious Fire Dragon
In my game room playing Specialist GW games
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What makes you say that Psienesis? We have telescopes now that can see our entire Galaxy. They can see Nebula in space, I've seen pictures from our telescopes that can see an entire universe filled with galaxies. What makes you think they don't have that capability 40,000 years from now if we have it today?
That picture in the book is supposed to represent our galaxy. And that picture is supposed to be accurate of where the tyranids are circa 998.M41. It's not some stupid fantasy map with here be dragons. Its from stellar reports in the area. It's from many ships personally observing them and it is from scans taken from Imperial Fleets in the area sent to try to slow them down and stop them.
Modern day fluff does not contradict old fluff about the size of the Tyranid fleets. Nothing has changed from the old Epic Space Marine supplement Epic Hive War. Those fleets are described in the 6th edition rule book as "immeasurably large". On a galactic scale that is pretty big by anyone's standard. The bulk of the Tyranids fleets aren't even represented on the map as they are described as strewn out across the void.
They've already eaten other galaxies, in what way is that small? you guys are deluding yourselves if you think that the tyranids as a whole are small. They aren't. they are incredibly, unimaginatively massive. Automatically Appended Next Post: ansacs wrote:Call the exterminator...er nurgle?
Actually having that space filled every inch with ships would have a gravitic force that would draw the entire galaxy toward it. The entire fleet would probably collapse into several stars or the fleet would have to use so much energy opposing its own gravity that it would burn through itself in no time at all. For an example the average denisty of the milky way galaxy is ~10^-23 gram cm^-3 your proposed density is on the order of ~0.5 to 0.005 gram cm^-3 ( BTW this density is pretty close to that of a planet and is even larger than an asteroid belt) assuming tyranids are more dense than water, a single light year would be 5.0e50 kilograms or ~2 Solar mass or two of our own suns in a single light year cube. The mass of the fleet at the density you propose would be a super dense galaxy which would collapse into its own center as it creates one heck of a super black hole.
Where is this every inch is covered with ships coming from? If that is right then it is one of the worst thought out fluff pieces in the game when taken in any scientific context.
Of course it's not very well thought out. Gw likes to pick and choose what science they like in their game and ignore the real life references that would thwart their nefarious plans for the galaxy with real science. Why would they care about real science with things like fungus men and magic?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 06:10:52
"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."
from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 06:51:18
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Executing Exarch
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Uh, no, just no. We have not even seen all of the milky way. We most definitely cannot "see" even half of the universe not to mention large patches in the half we can see. Heck we just figure out how to detect earth sized planets near a sun a few years ago. You sire vastly over estimate our species current technological abilities. I wish we were there, man my life would be easier.
Immeasurably vast could mean 10x the IoM or IoM^1000 either would be "immeasurably" vast as the IoM itself is supposed to be "immeasurably" vast in this fluff. With worlds thousands of years out of sync due to warp storms I guess measurement would be tough.
Unless there is something specific saying every inch then the base assumption should not be something that makes no sense in the fluff as gravity was never repealed in the setting. That be why the eldar use anti-gravitic drives.
Fungi-men is actually not as ridiculous as you might believe, fungi are the actual pinnacle of the evolutionary tree on earth. They can survive being launched to the moon and then coming back through the atmosphere, then taken off and grown in a petri dish (which I cannot). They are also sometimes even more complex biochemically and genetically than humans...perhaps the ork invasion is upon us?
The warp and psychic powers seems ridiculous to me but it is fantasy (Needs magic, say psychic) and there are people who believe in psychic powers in real life, so yeah make of that what you will.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 14:01:56
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Furious Fire Dragon
In my game room playing Specialist GW games
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So the large pictures NASA has shown on exhibit in my city of galaxies beyond count is false? Are you telling me the space agency is lying to all of us?
I don't know what you do for a living, by your posts I would say some sort of space scientist or something, thats cool if you are, but I have been to the space exhibits from NASA and seen those giant pictures they have of real galaxies. I've also seen the pictures they have of our entire galaxy looking from the hubble space telescope. As far as I've been lead to believe and as far as I can tell those are real. So unless you know something about it that NASA hasn't been telling us I stick to my origional story.
Look, people often overlook the fluff as being exagerrated. I get that, because of things like Matt Wards little love affair with Ultramarines. People used to say I took it too literally when I would talk about the ancient Eldar being able to snuff out the stars using only their dreams. Then I proved it wasn't just me taking it too literal, the Dark Eldar codex and the 6th edition rulebook backed it up. The fluff behind the tyranids fleets stretching from whatever galaxy they are coming from all the way to the milky way comes from established fluff and has for over 16 years that I know of.
Just based off of the volume of space that would take up leads me to believe the Tyranid fleets are bigger than anything anyone can imagine (this is also backed up by fluff) and nothing has changed that. They are still described in the 6th edition as "their masses strewn out across the void".
Notice the word "across" in that sentence. It doesn't say "out into" or anything that suggests they are just floating around in no mans land between galaxies. It says "across". To me, that means from whatever galaxy they are coming from to ours. That is a huge amount of space to take up. And fluff backs me up on my belief. The only part of the fluff that doesn't suffers from the same stupidity that all of GW fluff does, the fact that the GW game designers can't seem to get their numbers right. Everybody knows 1000 space marines per chapter would have the marines killed off long ago with weapons like D weapons from Apocalypse if they fought in any sort of battle. Same goes for Epic Space Marine. I personally have killed off an entire chapter of Space Marines many times over in Epic scale. And that is just from one battle. With weapons as fierce as that, Space Marine chapters HAVE to be massively larger than GW represents them. The same goes for how many Tyranids are in the fleets based off of that stupid picture they have on page 409 of the main rule book.
If you are a scientist, look at that picture and tell me if fleets the size of what they have pictured there is even feasable? In real life I doubt it. That would be rediculous. Look at how much of our galaxy those fleets are already covering. Do you really think something that big is only a few million ships?
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"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."
from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 14:40:42
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:Call bs all you want. Look at the map. That should tell you all you need to know. The Tyranid fleets on that map are light years across. And the spaces filled by it are completely filled with tyranid ships. Each tyranid ship holds billions of organisms. No fleet in the entire imperium is large enough to cover light years of space. Neither are the orks, or Eldar or Necrons or any other race. The only ones who do have that kind of numbers are the Tyranids.
I'm not exagerrating at all. It's simply by looking at what space in the galaxy the hive fleet covers that you can tell how truely massive they are. Do you think that map has the tyranid fleets as being just a few hundred feet away from planets? Those stars you see in the galaxy picture are light years across from each other. And the fleets are going from one star to the next with no spaces in between unfilled by tryanid ships. How can you possibly say I'm exagerrating when the picture tells the whole story?
You're reading maps wrong.
When they show fuzzy clouds on the galatic map, it's doesn't mean that that entire area is hive fleet and tyranid organisms, it shows where they have passes and their range.
When you look at old maps of WW2 german advances across Europe, it doesn't mean the German army filled a neat giant arrow formation capable of traversing all terrain, it shows the general movements and indicates their range of operable offensive capability.
The arrows shown here are not entirely laying over german forces... They give an indication of the general movement sweeps of various military formations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 14:56:21
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Roadkill Zombie wrote:Call bs all you want. Look at the map. That should tell you all you need to know. The Tyranid fleets on that map are light years across. And the spaces filled by it are completely filled with tyranid ships. Each tyranid ship holds billions of organisms. No fleet in the entire imperium is large enough to cover light years of space. Neither are the orks, or Eldar or Necrons or any other race. The only ones who do have that kind of numbers are the Tyranids.
I'm not exagerrating at all. It's simply by looking at what space in the galaxy the hive fleet covers that you can tell how truely massive they are. Do you think that map has the tyranid fleets as being just a few hundred feet away from planets? Those stars you see in the galaxy picture are light years across from each other. And the fleets are going from one star to the next with no spaces in between unfilled by tryanid ships. How can you possibly say I'm exagerrating when the picture tells the whole story?
You're reading maps wrong.
When they show fuzzy clouds on the galatic map, it's doesn't mean that that entire area is hive fleet and tyranid organisms, it shows where they have passes and their range.
When you look at old maps of WW2 german advances across Europe, it doesn't mean the German army filled a neat giant arrow formation capable of traversing all terrain, it shows the general movements and indicates their range of operable offensive capability.
The arrows shown here are not entirely laying over german forces... They give an indication of the general movement sweeps of various military formations.

Beat me to it MeanGreen  ...I give you a Harumph sir..HARUMPH
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 16:46:24
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If the full force of a mega-Hive Fleet hit Terra I think there'd be a decent chance of them overunning the planet. I imagine the Astromonican falling prey to the Shadow of the Warp would create all kinds of havoc with the ability of reinforcements to get there.
Also, poor Poland
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My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 21:04:10
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Executing Exarch
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I agree that it should be a huge number of ships like 10^100 or something ridiculous like that. However this is more like 1 ship every hundred lightyears or so not every inch. In fact this is stretching across the void more than even a galaxy does so this would already be massive.
I am not part of NASA, I am a final year ipHD candidate microwave, Raman, and Infrared spectroscopist (chemist) with an interdisciplinary in geology. NASA is not lying they just are not bogging their display down with alot of frankly necessary explanation that would only be of real interest to specialists. The "pictures" they have are from our probs which have a orion spear-our solar system-earth(hubble telescope) perspective which means as we are near the outer edge we cannot see roughly half of the galaxy and we cannot see anything from the outer perspective like the map we are talking about. Compound this with the fact that we cannot see past the middle of the universe and cannot see small objects (I mean in many cases smaller than stars) in other galaxies. Much of the pictures you see are actually microwave spectra extropolated into an image in the visible light spectra so the "colors" shown are pure imagination (not to mention the keplar effect that changes the colors anyway).
Anyways the take home message is that the NASA displays are simplified images taken from a huge amount of work to show people who do not necessarily want to study the years worth of study that it would take to completely understand them (heck, even with my specialties I couldn't have even begun to do some of the stuff NASA does).
Anyways the hive fleets will most likely come in as huge clumps smaller than a small solar system and will have to be separated by rather large distance to avoid to much mass in the region.
I agree the space marines chapters are too small for what happens on the game table however they are not supposed to be fielded like that post heresy where they are extremely limited in numbers.They should drop down to take out the enemy commander and perhaps the titan while the IG dies in droves to the D-weapons, as the GOD EMPEROR wills!
This is why I love the allies rules. The new IG/SW(etc.) armies are much more realistic for a what a normal battle in the 40K universe would have to look like.
Poor Poland indeed, I hear they still are not completely over it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/28 22:14:58
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:What makes you say that Psienesis? We have telescopes now that can see our entire Galaxy. They can see Nebula in space, I've seen pictures from our telescopes that can see an entire universe filled with galaxies. What makes you think they don't have that capability 40,000 years from now if we have it today?
That picture in the book is supposed to represent our galaxy. And that picture is supposed to be accurate of where the tyranids are circa 998.M41. It's not some stupid fantasy map with here be dragons. Its from stellar reports in the area. It's from many ships personally observing them and it is from scans taken from Imperial Fleets in the area sent to try to slow them down and stop them.
Every map in the Imperium is a "stupid fantasy map", because they *do* say "Here be dragons". Remember that the bulk of every Segmentum is entirely unexplored space, as no stable Warp-routes exist to those regions. The Imperium is not a continuous mass of human worlds from Sol to the Eastern Fringe, to the Halo Stars, to the Rifts of Hecaton, etc. The Imperium, instead, is an empire made up of islands, each a small speck of Human presence in the darkness of space, relying on its immediate neighbors and other, more distant worlds, for survival. All around them is the Void, which may be home to entire Xeno empires that the Imperium is entirely ignorant of, because they've never flown over there to look, and their non-Warp-capable auger-ships won't arrive there for another 14,000 Terran years.
The Imperium, relying on the Warp as it does for FTL travel, simply cannot cover that much space. Without a known, stable Warp Route between Points A and B, you can't just Warp-Jump to Point B with accuracy.
Modern day fluff does not contradict old fluff about the size of the Tyranid fleets. Nothing has changed from the old Epic Space Marine supplement Epic Hive War. Those fleets are described in the 6th edition rule book as "immeasurably large". On a galactic scale that is pretty big by anyone's standard. The bulk of the Tyranids fleets aren't even represented on the map as they are described as strewn out across the void.
100,000 ships would still be "immeasurably huge" when the average Segmentum fleet is just a couple thousand ships, if that many.
They've already eaten other galaxies, in what way is that small? you guys are deluding yourselves if you think that the tyranids as a whole are small. They aren't. they are incredibly, unimaginatively massive.
So is space. A galaxy of 100,000 worlds with life no more complex than a sand-flea is not much of a challenge to the Tyranid. It might also have taken them 20 million years to do it and then drift off to another galaxy to do it again. Space is really, really big.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 00:13:51
Subject: Re:So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Norn Queen
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Psienesis wrote:So is space. A galaxy of 100,000 worlds with life no more complex than a sand-flea is not much of a challenge to the Tyranid. It might also have taken them 20 million years to do it and then drift off to another galaxy to do it again. Space is really, really big. The problem with the theory that previous galaxies might not have had complex organisms is - going by new fluff, Tyranids had all of their current bioforms, aside from specilised forms like the Doom, before Tyran. Which means they had them before reaching our galaxy. If previously devoured galaxies were a bunch of worlds populated by nothing more than local fauna, the Tyranids wouldn't have needed more than Rippers to devour them. The fact they bred combat capable bioforms like the Carnifex, Trygon and Heirophant means they came across some pretty heavy defenses on their way to the Milky Way. If there were no heavy defenses to overcome, breeding those bioforms would have been pointless, thus not done. Tyranids only breed bioforms when there's an obstacle they can't beat, and only after beating themselves against said obstacle numerous times.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 00:16:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 00:38:09
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Galaxies 1 through 11 might have been the space-empire of Sandfleaistan. Galaxy 12 might have been the space-empire of Kickassika.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 00:43:32
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Executing Exarch
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No that was definitely galaxy 15 with 12-14 being Iwantmymomma and the mighty midnightsnackians federation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 01:03:10
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Norn Queen
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All they need is one galaxy, with defenses needing the likes of Heirophants to overcome, to show they can tackle something like the Milky Way,
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 01:12:02
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Since humans have killed Heirophants, I'm not exactly sure that's true. It's the equivalent of a Warlord Titan. Big, sure, but not indestructible.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 01:28:05
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Norn Queen
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Psienesis wrote:Since humans have killed Heirophants, I'm not exactly sure that's true. It's the equivalent of a Warlord Titan. Big, sure, but not indestructible.
An Emperor Titan has been killed by Heirophants (to be fair, it took 3). Do Tyranids win on the 'killed the bigger thing' now? That's not a very relevant argument.
The fact Tyranids needed, before they got to the Milky Way, creatures like Heirophants, Heirodules, Harridans, Carnifexes and Trygons means that they would have come across some incredibly tough defenses in previous galaxies. Even if it was just one galaxy, the fact they needed creatures like that means very tough defenses are not foreign to them, since they wouldn't have bred them if there weren't enemies tough enough to need them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/01 01:52:37
Subject: So the Tyranids get to Terra...
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Since we lack any particular details, it's really just a matter of guess-work. Maybe the reason that these were created was because the Gene-Stealer Cults became aware of Titans, and so the inbound Hive Fleets prepared some Titan-killers ahead of time?
We also know that Orks are extra-galactic. Maybe they ran into some Gargants out there?
Point is, we don't really know what triggered the creation of these creatures, so whether or not it makes the Hive Fleets more than capable of taking on the Milky Way... we really don't know.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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