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So which setup is better, overall for tournament play when field our space fairies on the table at say about 1500-2000 points?

Wraithwall action with lots of static stuff, pathfinders, wraithguard, Wraithlord, the works and if you feel really mean and play on tables that are 48x48 like we do at our FLGS, put D-Cannon Support Weapon nastiness on the table
For this setup, I'm thinking Eldrad (if he's allowed).

or

Aspect warrior storm: you know, the Biel-Tan put all your specialists where they're supposed to go, and if you fail at that then your done because all of your stuff is about as resilient as cake frosting.
My thoughts: It could work, but banshee/serpent nerf doesn't help much. Dragons are always a solid choice, Reapers are expensive, Spiders are aresome, and Hawks (even though they're my favorites), lack the ability to reliably kill anything over T4.

or

Last, but certainly not least, the Saim-Hann path. A seer council on bikes and a bazillion jink saves on everything else, with the possibility of re-rolls. Guardian JBs got a boost in 6th, impact his is cool, but I NEVER charge with JBs unless it's the seer council. I get better luck with the popguns. seer council on bikes is ridonkulous, and re-rollable 3+/4+ T4 is daunting to kill. (thank GOD, no more Instant Death plasma cause of the stupid profile)

So, how about it dakka-ites? Are CWE doomed in every tournament scenario or is there a way to srcy the path of victory through a mine field of defeats?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poll decides what route I go next tourney. Personally I'm tied between all three (each have their own merits)

Well, I'd consider a Seer Council on jetbikes. But too many jetbikes (GJB squadrons) have a too large foot print. Therefore, I'd go for a mix. Mobility and firepower are key in the new edition.

Its funny, this is why I think its unfair to call the Eldar Codex a 'bad' codex. Weak? Definitely, but there is so many builds, so many variations for each role compared when you look at Tau or BT or some of the other old codexes that basically are stuck with monobuilds now. /rant off

Anyway, which list......Thats a hard call. Personally I feel that Wraithwall lists have too many hard counters for a playstyle that revolves around extremely high point value units (vindicators/massed poison).

Never really liked bikes though they are pretty viable and superfast scoring MSU will always make your opponent sweat. Not likely to win killpoint games though.

Personally I voted for the Biel-tan style, its nice that Reapers, Spiders and even hawks have a niche in 6th, alongside the ever-present Fire Dragons.

TL;DR - TASTE THE RAINBOW!

You know, I'm really leaning towards the seer council, how to field them on the table is another matter. The tables aren't as big as youd think (48x48), and mechdar does have jink, but the new standard at my FLGS environment is Newcrons, which is making me re-evaluate that. There are a lot of things in the game now that make massed armor values a risky proposition. T8 is nice with so many bolters and MEQ weapons on the table to be ignored, and wraithlords devour overwatch like champs.

I know there will be one Dark Eldar player in escalation and I've seen his stuff. If he decides to go all poison, wraith-wall is out. I could be so fortunate to get him first with a mechseer army, but it's not a good idea to build a tournament army list around one enemy faction. He has a few DLs and I know he's bringing in a flier (as are the newcrons, and BAs for that matter). EMLs have house-ruled skyfire though, so I'm not terribly worried about fliers. (they are a pain in the )

I think this would be a good, but mostly fun monster mash army.

Eldrad 210
Avatar 155

3 GJS 66
3 GJS 66
3 GJS 66

Wraithlord w/ BL/EML 155
Wraithlord w/ SL/SC 120
Wraithlord w/ SL/WS 120

4 Halequins w/ kisses, shadowseer, troup leader w/ power lance 182
5 dragons 80 + serpent w/ TL SC 100
5 dragons 80 + serpent w/ TL SC 100

Maybe swap in a aegis defense line with quad gun and an exarch to fire it, Or maybe swap avatar for wraithseer. At any point, its a fun list, but do you think its competetive?

Wraithwall is simply too easy for heavy CC armies to deal with. Especially terminators. WG simply cant break combat and fists/TH punch them apart.


The one list i was actually impressed at is bikes+Barron list. It runs off this unit:

Farseer Bike, Doom, Fortune, ROW, Spear
10 Warlocks Enhance, Embolden, 4 spears, 8 destructors
Baron

With the Baron it actually has a solution to one of the big problems of Seer Councils: getting bogged down in 2+ saves. He gives the squad hit and run and stealth, which means you dont have to try for invisibility. Therefore you get a tough unit that cant be locked (they even hit and run over blocking units), can unleash a silly number of flamer templates (DTW only works on the original target, not all units effected), has a decent TL overwatch, and have a 2+ inv in the squad to take some of the power axe/sword wounds off your guys. They are also able to charge repeatedly to get as many attacks as possible.

The list suffers vs MSU, but running other units like harlequins that can operate on their own makes it tougher for your opponents to address only one unit. I find running outflanking war walkers with cannons is also useful as your opponent most likely is dealing with all your melee/bikes by the time they come in and it makes them start splitting fire so many ways they cant kill everything. Even assaulting with the S5 2A war walkers is an option if not killed in one round. S5 3A, hitting on 3s on vehicles is a viable way to strip hull points/ possibly pen.

You know, I've been following Fritz and I gotta say I like the idea of a foot list that hybridizes some of the heartier elements of wraithwall with harlequins. The clowns are just scrappy enough to smash a good deal of MSU, can be tough as terminators in cover (Veil of [delicious] Tears), and can cut wraithguard out of combats they don't want to be in, while the space elf zombies eat up unwanted over-watch for the clowns.

This could work, but DE still would be difficult to handle, depending on deployment. If you could survive their initial volley and deploy so you can come to grips with them quickly, they evaporate like gasoline.

I've been told I'm crazy more than once for it, but I don't buy into the Wraithwall, Fire Dragons, or Jetbikes.

Now before I just sound like a raving lunatic I do have reasons for not playing those styles.

Fristly, they are very expensive in point cost. you can put an awful lot of nastiness on the table for the kind of points it takes to play a single unit of wraithgaurd or Gaurdians on Jetbike (or seers).

Also remember that in 5th ed all IC can call shots on 6s, meaning the seers required to keep your wraiths operational are not safe from being picked off. AS well, going from T3 to T4 on a bike is nice and all, but you're also going from 8 points a model to 22.... is that worth it? not really. the Guardians are still WS/BS 3, which is largely useless, even at speed, and for the point cost, you could do better for troop choices by just spamming Dire Avengers and equipping the Exarchs correctly.

Aslo, the 12" range on wraithguard and fire dragons makes them pretty damn useless, since they generally only get to fire once before they get eaten in cc. And if you try to mitigate that by putting them in a Wave Serpent, you just tacked an extra 100+ points to their cost. Again, you can point those points to better use on other units in the codex.

War Walker Spam is your friend, you'll get the most dice out of a twin Scatter-laser setup and at S6 AP they can be pretty nasty in bulk (1 squad of 3 = 24 shots per turn). That, combined with either a Wraithlord or a Fire Prism can really put the hurt on your enemy in Turn.

Scorpions are amazing for table control and tactical feints, I recommend infiltrating at least 1 squad into your enemy DZ to force their hand, follow it up with the War Walkers, and then close in with anything else.

Once you get the hammer & anvil play mastered in turn 1, you can pretty much have free reign of your other units, it's a toss-up between Harlies and Banshees for taking out MEQ,

You FA options should always include at least one squad of Swooping Hawks because they can kill ANY vehicle in 1 turn due to the haywire grenades (AV does not matter)... two squads is preferred but points are limited.

And as for HQs, If you are taking a farseer, take Eldrad, if you are taking an Autarch, Take Yriel, and if you are passing on either of those, the Avatar kills anything you put him against (Also, when you already have something in the enemy DZ, and War Walkers scout moving from your front lines, the enemy is already playing a defensive, reactive game, the Avatar HAS to be a priority for ranged fire and it can free up a LOT more movement for you. It either dies, and everything else you have goes to work, or it lives and kicks their teeth in.

why not the Avatar for Wraithwall?

@nonowho

This is because our *ahem "enlightened" tournament coordinator says it's a named character (even though every craft-world has one), and at our tournament only one is allowed.

Well thats stupid. Its like saying all chapter masters are special characters, cause there is only one of them for each chapter.

As much as I love my wraithwall monster party, I will say the list has shortcomings. DE and IG will ruin your day(but to be honest, this happened in 5th to footdar). Tau can also be a problem. That said, my footdar can eat MEQ and most TEQ lists alive.
The army is slower than Christmas, and relies on not dying as much as it relies on killing stuff.
Without the avatar, I would be hesitant to go that route, although a small board helps footdar.

Mech has never really done it for me in 6th. I have tried it, just never done well. Can still work against some armies, but nothing reliable... A small board hurts

A jetseer council is boss, but going all bikes might be too much. You could always mix and match a jetseer and other footdar elements, like walkers, wraithlords, rangers, the like. Probably your best bet.

So, just so you all know I took third at a local tourney with this list:

Autarch/PW/RL/Wings
Eldrad
2 min Guardians/EML Warlock/Conceal
1 Squad Vypers SC/SC
2 min Ranger Squads
2 Vibro cannons/Conceal Warlock
Wraithguard Troop Choice

I got hard countered by another Eldar player round one(lots of reapers, crack shot, maugan ra), but stomped everything else. Enemy shots kept going into pathfinders and failing. Vibro Cannons helped me rack up the points by sinking every vehicle by turn 3. Vypers were easy points for my foes, but massed cheap S6 dakka-ed every flier I came across, sinking 3 fliers (Helldrake, Valk, and Necron Croissant) by 24 S6 shots with guide. Tables were short, (48x48) so I am really glad I didn't bring mechsser. Yes, the seer council be nasty, but too many TL lascannons and Missile launchers in the tournament for that to work for long. After a point, you're just giving points to your foes. I just focused on the turn 5 contest with the last minute. It was rough, because even with all their fancy upgrades, guardians just suck. I two match ups I blew up enough stuff by turn 3 that my opponent didn't have enough threat left on the table to hurt my wraithguard.


On a positivie note, Wraithguard with Eldrad was awesome and got me the squad at full strength point 3 times.

I dont play any of these BUT I will say that the Eldar I do play seem to be doing unseasonably well, and to date I've not really understood why all the hate towards the codex. I think gamers are just impatient for a new codex and like to complain about its "age", in some .subconscious way hoping GW will hear it enough to influence them into making it reality. Lol.

Wraithwall armies are WAY too easy to shut up with swarms and throw away units that stop them from doing much.

Speed and deployment is where its at for Eldar. Being able to strike, strike first and strike HARD at the point of attack is the Eldar advantage. So I chose the Saim Hann option for that reason. I use what could on some level MAYBE fall in that general category?
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-wraithbone-sings-in-anticipation.html

I chose the flying circus. Once they release new jetbikes, I'll consider buying it.

 Jancoran wrote:
I think gamers are just impatient for a new codex and like to complain about its "age"

There's some truth to your comment, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a 4th edition codex being used in 6th edition.

I agree that Eldar can still be effective, but I want new toys (minis, not units) and points values in line with current books. When Eldar vehicles receive their point cost adjustments the way Chimeras and Rhinos did, I'll be a very happy camper.

I just hope they get an assault vehicle.
Think we might?

canadianguy wrote:
I just hope they get an assault vehicle.
Think we might?

hah, eldar get a cheap effective assault vehicle in an edition where assault isnt very good.

May be the case that shooting is better bu t3 w no 2+ armour or invul saves you need to not be standing for a turn, ever!

En Excelsis wrote:
I
You FA options should always include at least one squad of Swooping Hawks because they can kill ANY vehicle in 1 turn due to the haywire grenades (AV does not matter)... two squads is preferred but points are limited.

How on earth are you destroying "any" vehicle turn 1?

The hawks either:

(1) start on the board in your deployment zone, which means that they are 24" away from you and therefore outside of charge range... maybe you could charge if they speed forward... or...

(2) start in deep strike, which will give them that positioning but won't allow them to lay the haywire smackdown until turn 3 even if you come in on turn two.

I like hawks but either I am missing something important, your opponents rush their vehicles into your threat bubble, or something is strange.

Or he means that the enemy will move forward, placing them into charge range in round 1. After all, transports aren't made for holding back.

 Jancoran wrote:
Or he means that the enemy will move forward, placing them into charge range in round 1. After all, transports aren't made for holding back.

That was one of the options I listed.

warpspider89 wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:
I
You FA options should always include at least one squad of Swooping Hawks because they can kill ANY vehicle in 1 turn due to the haywire grenades (AV does not matter)... two squads is preferred but points are limited.

How on earth are you destroying "any" vehicle turn 1?

The hawks either:

(1) start on the board in your deployment zone, which means that they are 24" away from you and therefore outside of charge range... maybe you could charge if they speed forward... or...

(2) start in deep strike, which will give them that positioning but won't allow them to lay the haywire smackdown until turn 3 even if you come in on turn two.

I like hawks but either I am missing something important, your opponents rush their vehicles into your threat bubble, or something is strange.

I think he meant 1 turn, not turn 1

Hawks are still one of the worst units in the Codex, only Shining Spears and Support Weapons (actually probably only the Shadow Weaver, D Cannons and Vibrocannons have some use) are clearly worse. They are basically an IG Vet with a Jump Pack for more than twice the price, but aren't scoring and can't take any special weapons.

If you are deploying your Hawks and your opponent is moving within 18" of them with a vehicle he actually cares about (i.e not a Rhino that has moved forward 12-18" already) then you need to stop playing scrubs. Any half decent player is not going to give you are easy charge turn 1 with Hawks, and realistically if they are actually worried about their vehicles dying they will just shoot you off the board, T3 4+ just melts.

Powerguy wrote:
Hawks are still one of the worst units in the Codex, only Shining Spears and Support Weapons (actually probably only the Shadow Weaver, D Cannons and Vibrocannons have some use) are clearly worse. They are basically an IG Vet with a Jump Pack for more than twice the price, but aren't scoring and can't take any special weapons.

If you are deploying your Hawks and your opponent is moving within 18" of them with a vehicle he actually cares about (i.e not a Rhino that has moved forward 12-18" already) then you need to stop playing scrubs. Any half decent player is not going to give you are easy charge turn 1 with Hawks, and realistically if they are actually worried about their vehicles dying they will just shoot you off the board, T3 4+ just melts.

Yeah, but they still can work as a vehicle denial area for ~100 pts. Maybe isn't worth for small games, but for bigger ones I believe they're still 'overpricedely' valid.

If you are using hawks for assaulting vehicles such as rhinos, then I think warp spiders would be better suited for the role.

For only 1 point more than the hawks, you get a guy with a stronger, albeit shorter ranged, gun, better armour save and the ability to disappear out of range of the enemy (in theory) after taking down said vehicle.

This is why my eldar army does not have hawks but does have 14 warp spiders. They rock!

None of these options create a competitive Eldar army.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rohansoldier wrote:
If you are using hawks for assaulting vehicles such as rhinos, then I think warp spiders would be better suited for the role.

For only 1 point more than the hawks, you get a guy with a stronger, albeit shorter ranged, gun, better armour save and the ability to disappear out of range of the enemy (in theory) after taking down said vehicle.

Warp Spiders cannot disappear anymore. Given the new shooting casualty rules, the Warp Spiders need to be within inches of their target if they hope to cause any real casualties. Then they only teleport away the same distance everyone assaults. They aren't safe anymore.

I was challenged by someone to take a full 30 Warp Spiders and play it at tournament. That would be interesting. to do. Stretch my imagination a little on tactics. Wish I had the models to actually do it. "Would be fun.

Warp Spiders are unjustifiably costly IMO.

they are a very beautiful model, and have some interesting fluff (which are perfectly valid reasons to use them), but I do not see a tactical advantage to putting them in my list.

12" range is so far beyond useless that I can't even fathom why players use those units at all, let alone pay a premium for them.

You can't fathom it? I mistyped, I meant 30 Hawks. But since you said so...

Their range really isn't the issue you should look at. It's the Strategy behind them.

They are easily one of the fastest units in 40K. They ACTUALLY have an effective range of 19" to 24" depending on how you view it (defensively or offensively).

STR 6 is a magic number in 40K. Lots of nice things happen at that power point. And of course the Warp Spiders are not in a vacuum. There are other untis involved.

So you should look to the strategy of their use, not one item amongst many on their stat lines. Take a look:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-wraithbone-sings-in-anticipation.html

I played a tournament at the weekend with my own Eldar, my Eldar I think are by no means competitive, but I did pretty good for my first tourney with Eldar all things considering. I personally think a mix of mech and footdar is a good idea, but that being said, I am not a tournament player. I placed 14th out of 24 so I was happy enough. I tabled a Daemon army with flamer spam, I got a draw against a Sisters army and the main culprit was me being unable to cast powers and get jink saves because he stole the initiative. and my final game I lost pretty badly against an IG blob with Space Wolf allies, who had wolf guard in 3 drop pods. It wasn't pretty.

Here was my army, what do you guys think competitive-wise?
HQ
Eldrad – 210 points

Farseer, Guide, Mind War, Spirit Stones – 115 points

Elites
5x Fire Dragons – 80 pts

Troops
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ bladestorm and dual shuriken catapults – 152 pts

10x Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ bladestorm and dual shuriken catapults – 152 pts

6x Rangers, Pathfinders – 144 pts

3x Guardian Jetbikes, shuriken cannon, Warlock w/ singing spear, embolden – 129 pts

10x Guardians, Scatter Laser Platform – 95 pts

Transport
Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon – 110 pts

Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon – 110 pts

Fortification
Aegis Defence Line, Quad Gun – 100 pts

Heavy Support
Fire Prism – 115 pts

3x War Walkers, 6x Shuriken Cannon – 120 pts

5x Dark Reapers, Exarch, Tempest Launcher, Crack Shot – 217 pts

Total – 1849 points