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 infinite_array wrote:

Orktavius wrote:

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.

I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.

PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.

I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.

M:tG also has a vastly larger playerbase than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.

And M:tG is aimed at the target demographic that might be the most likely to rage on the Internet for no real reason.

So the OP has been here barely a year, has posted very little and shared nothing from what I can see......and bashes the site? Good form. If DAKKA isnt for you, then sorry man, find another? I can say, yes there are bad spots to DAKKA, and awesome spots in DAKKA. This would be like me buying a brand new car, driving it once a month for a year and bash the car company as a whole, because I can tell from my limited experience in said car, that the company sucks.

Sorry man, but you can easily google search another forum to talk in. You wont be missed

Honestly from here it is looking like a bonified Troll post.

The OP hasn't even come back and recommented, or stepped up for an explanation for the DCM muttly cracks.

I'm rarely one to complain. but i can be shady. Using cunning to get around my problems rather than whine about them. I came to have fun. I come to dakka to have fun and see what fun other hobbyists and tabletop gamers are having. To build ideas that are fun and brainstorm more for the club i'm in. If all I see is the negative, I might as well not play and focus on my personal life.

 d-usa wrote:
And M:tG is aimed at the target demographic that might be the most likely to rage on the Internet for no real reason.

emphasis mine

That demographic encompasses most internet users. This isn't a demographic issue, but rather one of just anonymity. People are more likely to speak out about what's bothering them when there is little to no downside in doing so. Creating an account on this, or pretty much any forum, is extremely easy and does not divulge your actual identity if you don't want it to. Therein is the problem. When you piss moan and groan to a group of friends in person at some point they will tell you to cut it out; if it gets too bad they'll ostracize you.

On the internet though, if people stop listening all you have to do is create a new account and start over. It's about as close to living in a video game world where you can reset at will as we can get today.

On dakka you can still have enjoyable fluff/lore discussions in GW-related products. Unfortunately GW's war against its own customers has reduced everything except for the fluff (and FW products) to a terrible state. Overpriced, ascetically poor, low quality products ineptly marketed, bad rulesets, and secretly released.

I'm a BL guy by this point and not much else with regards to GW related products. Unfortunately GW's starting to infect BL with all this limited edition hardback novella crap.

I think the magic comparison is really good. There simply is less for the disaffected M:tG player to complain about. WotC simply does less stupid things and is better at game design.

Less bad things = less complaining about bad things.

The community responsibility is to shun bad behavior and laud good behavior. Whether that applies to sportsmanship, trades, or even that of the companies we support.

xraytango wrote:
The community responsibility is to shun bad behavior and laud good behavior. Whether that applies to sportsmanship, trades, or even that of the companies we support.

You mean, The community should always bellieve the Propaganda?

Wow, that is not what I said, nor meant. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Unless we are blessed with cabbage for brains we are generally able to figure out if something is a good act or a bad act.

xraytango wrote:
Wow, that is not what I said, nor meant. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Unless we are blessed with cabbage for brains we are generally able to figure out if something is a good act or a bad act.

omg that is just... I can't even comprehend how offensive that is...
I was cursed, CURSED to live life with a cabbage for a head!!!

LoL, How dare you RD, I mean really, do you know what it's like to have Dr. Pepper shoot out your nose and all over the monitor, not kidding. Painful experience!

 agustin wrote:
I think the magic comparison is really good. There simply is less for the disaffected M:tG player to complain about. WotC simply does less stupid things and is better at game design.

Less bad things = less complaining about bad things.

Exactly.

Think of it as any relationship, if its constantly full of hatred and strife it wont last long, where as you can deal with the occassional problem as that is expected. GWs relationship with its customers follows the cycle of abuse almost perfectly, they abuse and they have people apologize for them.

clively wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And M:tG is aimed at the target demographic that might be the most likely to rage on the Internet for no real reason.

emphasis mine

That demographic encompasses most internet users. This isn't a demographic issue, but rather one of just anonymity. People are more likely to speak out about what's bothering them when there is little to no downside in doing so. Creating an account on this, or pretty much any forum, is extremely easy and does not divulge your actual identity if you don't want it to. Therein is the problem. When you piss moan and groan to a group of friends in person at some point they will tell you to cut it out; if it gets too bad they'll ostracize you.

On the internet though, if people stop listening all you have to do is create a new account and start over. It's about as close to living in a video game world where you can reset at will as we can get today.

Mildly NSFW Internet link (swearing)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

I may not always succeed, but I endeavor to just walk away without participating in arguments over forums if I don't have something constructive to contribute. I don't think I've ever seen someone stop in the middle of a heated debate, say "oh, I think you're right," and change sides. Certainly not on a forum.

If there is any responsibility to the community, it is for us to grow up. If we want our online communities to be pleasant, we have to stop contributing to the parts that drag it down.

Think of it like a subdivision. We don't want any littering in our subdivision, we hate the look of the grass with a bunch of garbage on it. Trolling and flame wars are like your neighbor coming by and throwing beer cans on your lawn. Even the harsh snarkiness we get from people who are answering a question they feel that they've answered a million times before feels a little like an orange peel tossed in the yard. However, we don't do the community any favors by going over to our neighbor's yard and throwing garbage on their lawn in return. Even though we, in this case, didn't start it, we have to refuse to retaliate. Yes, that means letting people be wrong. I started out this response with several quotes from people I wanted to gently correct on things I felt they were saying that were factually inaccurate. After much thought, I deleted them. The people would only get angry, the issues were not relevant to the main topic, (which is how much responsibility the community bears for keeping the community civil) and doing so would not have served any purpose but making me feel better by declaring the rightness of my view of facts. It's very hard to let people just be wrong, especially when you know they're wrong, but sometimes it's the only way.

What must the community do to make things better? We have to act like adults. Part of acting like an adult means refusing to act like a child in response to other people acting like children. We have to be civil and courteous with one another, even when we don't want to and even when we don't mean it. Polite insincerity is part of what being a grown-up means.

We have to pick up our own garbage, too. If we screw up, we need to apologize. If someone apologizes to us, we need to acknowledge it. It's very difficult to admit when you're wrong, but people will usually be gracious about it. It is, of course, likewise important to be gracious when someone admits to being wrong, since we all make mistakes.

And if we want the community to improve, we have to take it a step further. To expand the metaphor, we have to pick up our neighbor's garbage. If we see someone get their head bitten off for asking a stupid question or making a stupid statement, we should attempt to deal with them from the assumption that there is a perfectly valid reason for what they said. We need to answer their (possibly stupid) questions, or ask for clarification on their (possibly stupid) declarations. And we need to do it without littering in the lawn of the person who bit their head off. If the poster turns out to be as foolish as the head-biter thought, then you can always alert a mod, and the mods will quietly sweep the garbage under the rug.

I'm the first to admit that I'm not perfect. I've littered, in my lawn and the lawns of my neighbors, but I try, and as a community, we must all try to do better if we want our community to be better. Of course, to quote Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

Amazing post Jimsolo!

I was just going to post many of the same things, so you saved me some time. Suffice to say, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you posted.

What I would add, is exactly as you mention, the only thing that we as the '"community" can do is as an individual control our own behavior and understand that even when we vehemently disagree with someone's position it doesn't automatically make them a troll. And on top of that, language actually matters. Calling someone a troll, an apologist, a whiner, a hater, etc, are all incredibly charged words, especially in a written medium where people will always read those types of words as being 'said' in the most spiteful manner possible.

And the reality is, if you think someone really, truly is trying to be a troll when they're acting as a hardcore GW apologist or GW hater (for example), then there are only two possibilities:

1) They really are trying to troll.
2) They simply have a vastly different point of view from what you believe.

Once you lash back and call them a 'troll', 'apologist', 'hater', etc, what does this accomplish?

Well, if they're actually a troll then you've done exactly what they've wanted and you've pulled the conversation off track as undoubtedly the rest of the thread will now revolve around the petty argument between you and whomever else you pull into it.

Or alternatively, they just have a wildly different viewpoint than you, in which case calling them any of those 'charged' words actually makes YOU the troll, as they will now undoubtedly respond back to you in a super-heated manner, again driving the thread off-topic into argument.

So in either case, the only adult sensible course of action is to politely address the points in their post that you feel are wrong without using those charged words. Or if you really think they're a troll, then simply ignoring their post and letting it just be a tiny blip in the thread is the way to rob the true troll of their power.

And finally, as Jimsolo pointed out, the biggest key is realizing that you don't always have to be right. It is incredibly, incredibly rare to actually convince the person you've been arguing with on a forum of *anything*. If that's the goal of your posting, then you'd have better luck trying to walk across water. The only things you can really hope to achieve 95% of the time in a forum discussion is to convince *others*, those barely posting or not posting at all and just reading. And to do that, you only have to post in a sensible manner and make a coherent point ONCE. You don't need to rebut every single thing the other guy is saying, because again, you're never going to convince HIM/HER. But if you make sense and you make a good point then other people will read what you've written and agree and that's really I think all any of us really want when we have an online discussion. The problem is, we often don't get any clues that we've actually reached people with our posts because MOST people simply read forums and do not post. So you just have to trust that someone is reading and getting something from your posts and you don't actually need to get the last word and get your opponent to 'give up' and admit that you are the one that has been right the whole time.

It is OKAY if someone loves Games Workshop even if you hate it. And its okay if someone hates GW while you love it. Just use the ignore feature on their posts if you really can't stand reading them, or better yet, just accept that people have differing opinions and just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.

 yakface wrote:
just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.

That's going to be rather difficult on Dakka since the mods are explicitly on one side of that fence.

If they can't follow your advice, why would anyone else?

I thought I throw in my two cents on this.

Granted I love to play Warhammer 40k and Fantasy Battles, hell I have been in the hobby for about six years and I have just recently only started on DakkaDakka for less than a month so my opinion may be null or void, but GW really has no touch with the modern times (due to the lack of GW-runned forums) and how they refuse to speak with the press when bad things come up and isolate themselves (an example of this would be the recent Space Marines IP debacle). Granted they are still the largest Miniwargaming company around due to the fact they have their own stores to sell their product and the other companies like PP and Battlefield often have to rely on Independent Retails and Online to sell their product, although they are slowly growing to start giving GW some well needed competition that it needs to knock it down a few pegs soon. Personally I think it is well needed to have a discussion on what a company can do better, but it must be done in a calm matter I think, because no company is at all perfect, companies are ran by human beings (Whether they are greedy donkey-caves or not is how they present themselves) but GW needs to change, but sadly they just blatantly ignore what is said as critism (Bashing or Constructive) and buries its head in the sand and hopes it will all go away.

Now I have been getting into other systems like FoW and Warmachine, but I still love to play the Warhammer games and model/ paint the miniuratures) but I have been mostly buying GW products off Amazon and a few other sites so I can save a bit of money as much as I can since I have school and that because I find joy in Miniwargaming and reading about the lore of the games.

So I guess what I can say in short:
Do not be afraid to speak what you think what someone could do better within reason,enjoy your hobby and try to find cheaper and better alternatives if possible if you cannot afford to buy direct from the main supplier, and have fun here in the community and game(s) you play the best you can.

I know it seems a bit of bouncing around but I thought I throw out what was on my mind on it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 yakface wrote:
just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.

That's going to be rather difficult on Dakka since the mods are explicitly on one side of that fence.

What fence are you talking about? Explain yourself.

The "Threads filled with troll posters" Fence? I like that they are on the No side.

 kronk wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 yakface wrote:
just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.

That's going to be rather difficult on Dakka since the mods are explicitly on one side of that fence.

What fence are you talking about? Explain yourself.

The "Threads filled with troll posters" Fence? I like that they are on the No side.

Examine their post history, including in this very thread. They are on the troll side.

I haven't seen any moderator trolling in this thread, or in general. What are you talking about?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 yakface wrote:
just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.

That's going to be rather difficult on Dakka since the mods are explicitly on one side of that fence.

What fence are you talking about? Explain yourself.

The "Threads filled with troll posters" Fence? I like that they are on the No side.

Examine their post history, including in this very thread. They are on the troll side.

The mods consistently come down on those people who are trolling. I have pressed the yellow triangle a handful of times to alert a Mod to a troll. There have only been 2 times a Mod hasn't stepped in and done something.

If a Mod is allowing a troll to continue it may be they are not aware the trolling is occurring because no one has clicked the yellow triangles. Or it might be that the 2 sides have devolved into simply trolling one another so why bother?

The Mods are entitled to an opinion. They are not judges or juries who must be completely unbiased. That is an unfair expectation of the mods. When mediating a dispute or trolling they should be as unbiased as possible, but that doesn't mean they should be limited in their contributions to actual conversations they are part of.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.

Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.

My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

You contradict yourself. You cannot claim a substantial proportion of the userbase frequently critisises GW and then call them 'the dregs of the community', when in reality it's the majority? it's a bit insulting really. Have you not grasped that, as mentioned prior to me, GW takes so much flak because its ignorance towards the community and its financial lunacy (in regards to the customer) warrant it?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Examine their post history, including in this very thread. They are on the troll side.

You're making the same mistake that others have made in this thread, conflating criticism with trolling.

 sphynx wrote:
You cannot claim a substantial proportion of the userbase frequently critisises GW ... when in reality it's the majority?

Citation Needed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 yakface wrote:
just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.

That's going to be rather difficult on Dakka since the mods are explicitly on one side of that fence.

What fence are you talking about? Explain yourself.

The "Threads filled with troll posters" Fence? I like that they are on the No side.

Examine their post history, including in this very thread. They are on the troll side.

Not agreeing with you is not the same as trolling. Far from it.

That's like something a troll would say.

 Pacific wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.

It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.

Can we therefore assume that you don't see any kind of causation between the quality of a product, the behaviour of a company, and its method of delivery, and the kind of reaction that creates with the wargaming fanbase?

This type of insult is what I mean when I say that the tone is being lowered. Obviously I understand that the quality of a product and the behavior of its creators is tied to the reaction of the fanbase. However, I think that at some point these things became decoupled and there is now a general "Games Workshop does anything = bad" reaction.

 Pacific wrote:
Go and take a look at the Infinity forum, the Battlefront/Flames of War forum, the Warlord Games forum to name but three. All of them having nothing like the level of negativity expressed here (in the GW focused sections - other areas of the forum are fine) because those companies are generally regarded as doing the right thing with regards to the general field of producing a product for their customers, and all of the factors surrounding that. If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent or wherever from about 10 years ago you would see a general lack of negativity there as well.

My point is that that "general regard" doesn't seem to be based on factual behaviors or decisions, but rather the prevailing attitude and forum climate. At this point it seems that GW is being attacked because that's the "in thing" rather than because of what they actually do. A good example of this is the recent one-click bundle situation, which actually prompted my earlier remarks. The concept of being "insulted" by someone setting up a method of allowing people to buy their products more easily while not giving you a discount is truly bizarre to me. My conclusion is that such things are being attacked solely because GW does them. I think people here focus on the bad side of everything GW does-- I suspect that if you put the text of any other company's press release under a GW banner people would be insulting and mocking it.

 Pacific wrote:
In any case, I'll assume for a moment that you genuinely mean what you say, and you aren't just deliberately being facetious to get some kind of rise from the people who've tried to reason with you.

Again, comments like this detract from the discussion. Subtle insults are still insults.

 Pacific wrote:
As d-usa pointed out before, the 40k specific section of the forum generally has a lot less comments on GW's business practices, or at least more focus in that direction. Same too with other 40k focused forums that concentrate on a particular force, just modelling and painting or whatever. Those places might well have the 'higher-standards' you are looking for - if by that you mean a public forum that doesn't discuss prices, quality of miniatures & rules, international trading standards, WD quality, lack of releases, or the decline of GW's retail chain, then it could be that if you find a forum community that isn't aware of any of those issues, then there might not be a general atmosphere of negativity there either.

I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.

I am always amazed that it is easier to believe that a majority of critical people are wrong than it is to believe that one company makes bad decisions.