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 d-usa wrote:
I am always amazed that it is easier to believe that a majority of critical people are wrong than it is to believe that one company makes bad decisions.


I don't believe that a majority of critical people are wrong; I believe that the prevailing environment of negativity and tolerance for unreasonably negative behavior has caused many people to retreat from the forums, so the "core group" of commentators on the forums are now largely negative in nature. In my view, the issues with the forums aren't related to taste but rather to culture.
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

Trolling has always resulted in bans.
Rudeness results in bans.
Being a jerk pro-GW or anti-GW results in bans.

So what is the unreasonably negative behavior that is wildly tolerated?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 04:41:52


 
   
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 Kingsley wrote:
My point is that that "general regard" doesn't seem to be based on factual behaviors or decisions, but rather the prevailing attitude and forum climate. At this point it seems that GW is being attacked because that's the "in thing" rather than because of what they actually do. A good example of this is the recent one-click bundle situation, which actually prompted my earlier remarks. The concept of being "insulted" by someone setting up a method of allowing people to buy their products more easily while not giving you a discount is truly bizarre to me. My conclusion is that such things are being attacked solely because GW does them. I think people here focus on the bad side of everything GW does-- I suspect that if you put the text of any other company's press release under a GW banner people would be insulting and mocking it.

You're partly right here, but for the wrong reason.

People who have a low opinion of GW are certainly predisposed to dislike anything that they do. But if they go on to critisise GW, they're not necessarily doing it because it's the 'in thing'... they're doing it because they have a low opinion of GW, and so they perceive whatever it is that they are complaining about as being worthy of criticism.


I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.

I believe that on any board with a large base of veteran players, that's a pipe dream, to be honest. As much as you might dismiss it as immature and unwarranted, that negaitivity is there for a reason. It's the culture that GW have fostered through their actions over the last 10 to 15 years.

I would love to be more positive about GW, because I still enjoy playing 40K. But they give me very little reason to do so. For every little bit of god they do (finally republishing the Stormtalon and Dakkajet rules, for example) they take a giant leap backwards at the same time (publishing said rules in a very small print run $48 direct-only book, say).

It's certainly possible that I would be less critical of that book if I was better disposed towards GW... but that better disposition is something that they need to earn. You can't expect all of the players who feel a bit disillusioned by GW's treatment of them over the last decade to just decide to forget all of that and start over.

 
   
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 heartserenade wrote:
 infinite_array wrote:
Orktavius wrote:

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.


I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.

PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.

I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.


M:tG also has a vastly larger player base than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.

Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).

There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.

And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.

The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.

The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.

I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.

While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.

I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.

I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.

But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.

I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.

I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.

If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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 d-usa wrote:
Trolling has always resulted in bans.
Rudeness results in bans.
Being a jerk pro-GW or anti-GW results in bans.

So what is the unreasonably negative behavior that is wildly tolerated?


There are lots of subtly rude and insulting comments that someone can make without violating the forum rules. The post from Pacific I quoted contained two comments that I would describe as subtly insulting in the way that can-- when accumulated over a wide body of posts-- end up driving people away. Such things aren't insulting enough to violate the forum rules as they stand but are IMO harmful to the forum culture.

Insaniak wrote:People who have a low opinion of GW are certainly predisposed to dislike anything that they do. But if they go on to critisise GW, they're not necessarily doing it because it's the 'in thing'... they're doing it because they have a low opinion of GW, and so they perceive whatever it is that they are complaining about as being worthy of criticism.


Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 04:54:03


 
   
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 Kingsley wrote:
Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.

And there's the thing: you're assuming that it's just the forum climate that is keeping away those with a more positive attitude towards GW. From my experience out in the real world, that's not really the case. I've come across plenty of people who still enjoy playing their games... but the general attitude towards GW is most definitely not positive.

Anecdotal evidence, of course...


 
   
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There are 17,809 WFB threads in the sub forums.
There are 134,854 40K threads in the sub forums.

There are 8,999 theads in Dakka Discussion. Let's just assume that half of all posts in Dakka Discussions are "GW bashing" posts.

Rouhgly 97% of GW related threads are people talking positively about GW, enjoying the background, building lists, etc.

So roughly 3% of GW threads on Dakka Dakka are "GW Bashing" posts. God we are hateful...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 05:02:43


 
   
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Pennsylvania

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
...
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.

Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).

There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
Spoiler:

And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.

The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.

The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.

I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.

While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.

I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.

I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.

But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.

I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.

I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.


If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.

The Auld Grump


This exposes something important;

For myself, I'm firmly ensconced as a 4e lover (but in the spirit of charity will refrain from elaborating on how wrong you are ), and for me and mine, WotC's 5e "relaunch" is thus far an almost unmitigated disaster. I started back playing D&D after twenty-odd years because 4e seemed to fix all of the things I wanted fixed while maintaining all of the things I liked. WotC is certainly solicitous of the former playerbase (pre-4e), but from what I have seen they have alienated a large amount of their current player base.

Now, that's not to get onto a tangent on D&D, but to point out that, ultimately, the games evolved to where they are, and they can't change their cores without alienating somebody.

So, for example, we've gotten to the point with 40k that GW has prided itself on it's "beer and pretzel" quality: can it suddenly shift to a tight rules set? What happens to the people that don't want a tight rules set?

On the other hand, let's be realistic here: GW is thus far not showing the slightest inclination to attempt what WotC is trying to do. WotC may be setting themselves up for failure as they attempt to create the uber-rulesset that is all things to all men, but GW is more then happy it seems to tell people that don't like their current direction where to get off.

   
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 insaniak wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.

And there's the thing: you're assuming that it's just the forum climate that is keeping away those with a more positive attitude towards GW. From my experience out in the real world, that's not really the case. I've come across plenty of people who still enjoy playing their games... but the general attitude towards GW is most definitely not positive.

Anecdotal evidence, of course...



Again, though, I think any such attitude is based on self-reinforcing patterns among the community. The reason I believe this is because I have played in local communities that have this prevailing attitude and local communities that don't. Unfortunately, most Internet communities seem to trend towards the negative.
   
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Pennsylvania

 insaniak wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.

And there's the thing: you're assuming that it's just the forum climate that is keeping away those with a more positive attitude towards GW. From my experience out in the real world, that's not really the case. I've come across plenty of people who still enjoy playing their games... but the general attitude towards GW is most definitely not positive.

Anecdotal evidence, of course...



It's worth pointing out that GW suffers from deficits that, to my knowledge, no other major game producers suffer from: the nature and extent of their legal overreach, which can fairly be characterized as unethical, possibly going so far as illegal.

The closest correlate would be the incident where PP asked the developer of iBodger to stop development on his app, as they were coming out with their own Warroom app. But taking the app down was the voluntary actions of a fan, not a reaction to a C&D letter.

GW, by contrast, can credibly be described as doing things like: fabricating evidence in a Federal Litigation, subornation of perjury, and abusing the provisions of the DMCA.

Whatever one thinks of Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic or whatever*, chances are your quarrels with them are based on aesthetics or other game based problems. With GW, there is a credible allegation that they are engaged in systematic abuse of the legal system. It's a whole other level of problem with a corporation.



*Except, of course, Mierce Miniatures, but that's a discussion for another thread.

   
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 Buzzsaw wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
...
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.

Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).

There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
Spoiler:

And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.

The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.

The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.

I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.

While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.

I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.

I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.

But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.

I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.

I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.


If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.

The Auld Grump


This exposes something important;

For myself, I'm firmly ensconced as a 4e lover (but in the spirit of charity will refrain from elaborating on how wrong you are ), and for me and mine, WotC's 5e "relaunch" is thus far an almost unmitigated disaster. I started back playing D&D after twenty-odd years because 4e seemed to fix all of the things I wanted fixed while maintaining all of the things I liked. WotC is certainly solicitous of the former playerbase (pre-4e), but from what I have seen they have alienated a large amount of their current player base.

Now, that's not to get onto a tangent on D&D, but to point out that, ultimately, the games evolved to where they are, and they can't change their cores without alienating somebody.

So, for example, we've gotten to the point with 40k that GW has prided itself on it's "beer and pretzel" quality: can it suddenly shift to a tight rules set? What happens to the people that don't want a tight rules set?

On the other hand, let's be realistic here: GW is thus far not showing the slightest inclination to attempt what WotC is trying to do. WotC may be setting themselves up for failure as they attempt to create the uber-rulesset that is all things to all men, but GW is more then happy it seems to tell people that don't like their current direction where to get off.


A big difference to Dungeons and Dragons though is that you don't have a local 'meta'. You play the edition the dungeon master is doing the campaign for. If he has all of the 1st edition source books, then you're going to be playing 1st edition. If you don't like 1st edition, you don't play in his campaign. 40k is different in that the newest ruleset is the generally accepted ruleset to use. If you go for a pickup game at the store, you don't start asking what edition you're going to be playing. These days, you know it's 6th edition, whether you like it or not, unless you find a mutually agreeable person to play an older edition with.

Different games, different cultures.

That said, I don't think GW needs to move to a tigher ruleset. I genuinely like 6th edition. I firmly find price and quantity of models to be the big drawbacks of where they are with their games. I understand they are trading as a PLC and need to keep shareholders happy, and maybe that's the root cause of the problem. But where they are heading is the same direction they've been heading since they started. More models, that cost more money. They have even responded to criticism entirely wrong - the only ciriticism I've seen them respond to in a long time was putting rules in limited availability White Dwarf issues. Instead of responding by graciously accepting it was a bad idea and putting PDFs up (afterall, they've sold out of the WD issues by now), they threw their toys out of the pram in a tantrum and said no new rules would appear in White Dwarf anymore.

Different games, different cultures.
   
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Uh oh. Buzz linked to one of my posts. That's never a good sign ;-).

For as whiny and bitchy as it can get here, I think it's worse on a site like boardgamegeek and the privateer forums.

I think the major problem with any Internet forum, however, is that too many people think they're right far too often (myself included) and are unwilling to even listen to others. Granted, half this time it's because someone is bashing something you like and put time into, but regardless, the discourse really only takes one Internet tough guy to get well meaning folks off topic.

 
   
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At a Place, Making Dolls Great Again

Its when someone insults me personally, I realize that any semblance of debate is gone and that person has no desire to listen, so much so that he will insult you until you go away or stop saying your opinion
I enjoy a mature back and forth, sharing of idea's etc,
Its when someone calls me a child for being a dissatisfied customer, or saying how i have no right to feel anything and I should just leave if I don't accept everything blindly.
it changes from discussion to petty arguments.
I don't get that when I am dissatisfied with anything else, just GW.

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 Kingsley wrote:
I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.


I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.


I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?


Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.
   
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Pasadena

 Kingsley wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.


I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?


Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.


All those discussions occur here on dakka.

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 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.


You're basically saying that you cannot criticise 40K, GW or anything related to it and that all who do so are "trolls" "whiners" and the "dregs of the community".

Such a bad start. Here I was thinking this thread might have some meaning...


 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you don't like GW anymore, stop playing their games and talking about them. Just let it go.


DarknessEternal's eternally fallacy, the "You don't like GW therefore you must stop playing 40K!" bull gak.

Disliking GW and liking 40K are not mutually exclusive.


 d-usa wrote:
We should make that a fund-raiser. The Hater's Ball and wargaming weekend.


Nah. Make it a "Black & White Ball", where all the White Knights get to fight the Dark Knights.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/02/20 08:29:47


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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Kingsley - apologies if my post came across as insulting. It was not intended that way - if it had been then I would have said so, and I wouldn't have cushioned what I said. But generally speaking that's not something I would do on a forum, and especially something as petty as talking about miniature wargaming. My comment about being facetious - it was aimed at a post above yours from Bryllcream, who had essentially admitted as much, and has been notable by his absence in the last couple of pages of comments.

Although you have to realise how your comments come across? Saying that someone just dislikes, or is not happy with a particular thing, because it is the 'in-thing' to do? The implication there is that a critical opinion is a vacuous one, that hasn't been built up by any kind of thought process and instead is just thrown out there carelessly just to try and ingratiate themselves with the other posters. But you've seemed like a polite poster so I can take a good guess that you wouldn't want to say something like that - the point I'm trying to make here is that written text is a pretty poor way of communicating, and can lead people (depending upon their disposition at time of reading) to assume the worst from any conversation.

Most of us here are reasonable people, but we will all have different expectations about what is reasonable or what is not. Some of the policy actions by GW since they became a publically traded company are not regarded as reasonable by a majority of people, or at least those who are 'into' something enough that they bother posting on a forum. Obviously a far larger percentage just play once a week with their friends, and don't really care - and if it does get too expensive for them say, then they are far more likely just to pack it up and not make a fuss. But, it's important to realise that the benchmark is different for each of us - and while there will always be some bandwagoning (on both sides of an argument) the majority of users here are a pretty conscientious, and for the most part capable of a discussion without resorting to petty arguments.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
I think that the community at large needs to learn the difference between "bash-fest" and "legitimate criticism".

Legitimate criticism does not need some attempted zinger remark about Mat Ward, Fineprices, or any number of the normal silliness that you see in such threads.
Legitimate criticism is also not just quoting someone's remark--whether you agree with it or not--and replying with a "facepalm" Orkmoticon.

Legitimate criticism is replying to someone's remark with a reply consisting of some measure of substance.


And at the same time those standing in front of GW with their shields out ready to defend any sort of criticism need to take a hike. There's nothing worse than a fanatic, whether that be fanatical love ("GW can do no wrong!") or fanatical hatred ("Everything PP do is garbage!").

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 OverwatchCNC wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?


Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.


All those discussions occur here on dakka.


Not in a reasonable fashion, unfortunately. Believe me, I've tried.

Pacific wrote:But, it's important to realise that the benchmark is different for each of us - and while there will always be some bandwagoning (on both sides of an argument) the majority of users here are a pretty conscientious, and for the most part capable of a discussion without resorting to petty arguments.


That's a fair point. What I'm saying is that think the majority of users more or less "go with the flow," neither raising nor lowering the standard of discourse. Unfortunately I also think the standard of discourse is not very high right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And at the same time those standing in front of GW with their shields out ready to defend any sort of criticism need to take a hike. There's nothing worse than a fanatic, whether that be fanatical love ("GW can do no wrong!") or fanatical hatred ("Everything PP do is garbage!").


This is also a good point. There was recently a guy posting ridiculous insults against Privateer in defense of GW and he seriously derailed one of the new threads. Overall I am in favor of reasoned discussion, and thus against both those who blindly defend and those who blindly attack. I do however think the current forum culture generally hews towards unjustified negativity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 08:43:04


 
   
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 Kingsley wrote:


Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.


There isn't anything to discuss tbh. Since we are all intelligent beings, we believe in capitalism being the superior form of a market. GW is a company. They are thus free to set any price they want. We, as customers, are free to buy anything we want at any price we want. The current price for GW's products is the original price minus 15-20% since the bigger online retailers sell GW products at that price. So if we are discussing prices, we have to discuss those.

The thing is: what is there to discuss? Everyone wants to get the most bang for your buck and wouldn't it be awesome if a box of minis was 10€ instead of 35€? The thing is, though, and most people tend to forget about it, that there's more to the price than just the assembly / material cost. I'm saying that the prices are "fair". I also consider them way too high and it always is a bad sign if a company has lower sales but still maintains profit by raising prices.

What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.

You either buy GW stuff or you don't. It's that simple. There's nothing like "Okay, I buy your products, but I want to attest that your prices are really high!". What matters is that you bought it. End of the story. "Okay, I buy your products, but I want to attest that your prices are really high!" is the same as "I buy your stuff, I love your products GW!". You bought it. Or you didn't. If you do, you support everything GW does and have to live with their constant price hikes. If you don't, you lower GW's profit. By a very small margin, yes. But if enough people suddenly stop buying their products, GW WILL change.

Petitons, angry forum users, etc. are worth nothing. GW will NEVER change because someone in a forum complained about their prices. Not even if hundreds did. Not as long as there are enough people buying enough stuff and thus generating enough profit.

Buy it. Or don't. Those are the two options you have. GW is free to set any price they want. It's their given right. It's your right to buy it at whatever price available to you.

"Vote with your wallet." These four words are the only thing that matters concerning the discussion of prices. Everything else is meaningless.

/flamecloak on

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kingsley wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
I am always amazed that it is easier to believe that a majority of critical people are wrong than it is to believe that one company makes bad decisions.


I don't believe that a majority of critical people are wrong; I believe that the prevailing environment of negativity and tolerance for unreasonably negative behavior has caused many people to retreat from the forums, so the "core group" of commentators on the forums are now largely negative in nature. In my view, the issues with the forums aren't related to taste but rather to culture.


You posit that the prevailing environment of negativity caused people to leave the forum. This may be true. However, by your argument the negative views were present and prevalent prior to the other people leaving. Thus, one would conclude that the negative opinion is either held by the majority, or that there is a very vocal minority that holds the position. Either GW pissed off a whole lot of people, or they really pissed off some folks. I tend to believe that they did both.

This may be off topic here. GW continues to do good things, such as rerelease the rules for the flyers. However, at the same time they make more bad decisions, such as not offering the book to stores at a reasonable discount. When you mix the bad with the good, the latter is usually not noticed.


   
Made in us
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 Sigvatr wrote:

What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.


Exactly. And you know what? I'm okay with that. They don't need to care about me. However, that's not the overall community group-think. In these forums, as well as those for any niche hobby, there's this overwhelming sense of entitlement and attachment that turns into a "I know how to run your company better than you" when a decision is made that isn't agreeable.

Baffles me.

 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

 Sigvatr wrote:

What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.


So?

Name one PLC that doesn't?

Big companies fething EXIST to make money. In fact, feth it,modern human beings exist to make money. It makes the world go round.

Even a company that offers exceptional customer care does so, because it will make them more money! Why the feth do you think they do it?

Everything is an equation. If a hotel knew for a fact that not putting a complimentary glass of wine in with your meal would not affect their guest numbers but would save them a hundred grand a year they would do it. Why waste money? For fun? For the pleasure of imagining people drinking it while your sat in the board room?

You can question whether or not GW is being smart, certainly I think their approach IS going to affect sales because it's overtly aggressive with the push for sales, but grown men shouldn't need the fundamentals of economics explained to them. Companies exist to profit, and good or poor perks and discounts and services are all part of the equations. Lower prices equals more sales, but smaller margins, and the board decides the smartest way of doing it rightly or wrongly.

But please, don't insult my intelligence by making me read this "boo hoo sob nobody cares" bull gak. It reads like something a teenage girl puts on her Facebook Page.

News flash. Nobody cares. The company that seems to merely makes you think that they do because they figure it will make more sales and thus increase their profits.

The one thing people do actually care about!

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Sigvatr wrote:


What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it.

Yep.

And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:

1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/20 14:57:48


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
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Australia

Yes companies exist to make money but even a company with only half a brain should be able to see that in a niche market maintaining a customer base is important, GWs entire business model is ''who gives a gak about the vets, they already own an army, make sure the new kids parents buy him a stater set'.

In addition if GW actually listened to it's player base we wouldn't get releases like the upcoming chaos daemons one, or the previous chaos warriors one, where the majority opinion on this site (and among everyone I personally know in the hobby, yes that's anecdotal but it's still) was that the models were bad. That is losing them money and all they would have to do is spend a little time listening to their customer base to realize it. Other companies know this. You don't have to care about your customers to listen to them, but doing so helps you know what will sell.

GW should be working with us to produce the best models in the world for competitive prices, instead they are sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALALALA" while expecting us to pay premium prices for whatever they stick their name on.


*Edit* and DarknessEternal, I REALLY hope that was sarcastic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 14:31:46


 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
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 jonolikespie wrote:

*Edit* and DarknessEternal, I REALLY hope that was sarcastic.

Nope. If you're whining about things you still buy, you're the problem, not the company.

Don't buy stuff and drop 40k/WFB and every other GW thing. Participate only in forums about things that you like. Bam, you're happier and so am I.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 15:14:52


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 mattyrm wrote:
//snip //


Uhm...I don't think you actually understood what I meant to say in my post. I fully agree with you. The paragraph was directed to all those people on the internet moaning about how evil GW and their prices are.

   
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






DC Suburbs

The community serves a critically important role for those who find themselves NOT in the extremes of GW love/hate.

There are many people who maybe have played for a little bit, timeline will be different for everyone. They start to see some things GW does... Things that make them scratch their heads. These people get an uneasy feeling that things are not quite right.

These people can talk to their friends, but this may not be any help. Personally many of the folks at my local store haven't hit the questioning point yet, or maybe aren't really good at critical thinking.

In that situation, dakka can play an incredibly important role, white knights, dark knights, and the more reasonable center all play a part in the discussions.

See, when you're starting to wonder if you're the only person noticing that GW doesn't make sense as a company, seeing these discussions can help validate or refute those observations. It also can be very, very helpful to use the extremes in the discussions as a yardstick to irrationality. But the irrational hatred/lovers still often have a point, or their existence is often a point. Do you ever read something, and say, "Dayum, I better to watch put to make sure I never get to that point!". Well, some people just might.

These discussions, what dakka gives, is information, differing views. The discussion, even heated, even negative, is an incredible resource.

"When your only tools are duct tape and a shovel, all of life's problems start to look the same!" - kronk

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Darth Helmet

"History...is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortune of mankind" - Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire 
   
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 DarknessEternal wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:

*Edit* and DarknessEternal, I REALLY hope that was sarcastic.

Nope. If you're whining about things you still buy, you're the problem, not the company.

Don't buy stuff and drop the hobby. Bam, you're happier and so am I.


I'm sorry but that is a stupid point of view. I love the 40k setting, but I haven't bought anything in months or even played more than 1 game since 6th came out. But I want to. I want to get excited about something but the only models that have appealed to me enough to get past the price tag have been the DA terminators, which I bought. It is entirely possible to like the game but hate the company. I buy very little these days but dropping the hobby isn't going to make me any happier.
I want to keep playing fantasy and I want to get back into 40k but from my point of view it is GWs business decisions keeping me from buying things.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
 
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