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 Ravenous D wrote:


And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.

You're not affecting any change. At all. Complaining inarticulately on the Internet does absolutely nothing, which is what most of the bitching and moaning on here is.

Saying they're "acting like dicks" is immature and shows that you're taking it way too personally. Seriously.

Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How? The introduction of an entire community section of their blog that showcases the work done by their customers. They don't have to do that. And then when REALLY cool stuff comes along, they write a full blog post on them. People like to ignore these things, and I'm sure Ill get flamed for it, but this is a very real and tangible way to show they value their customer base. You're not going to see it in pricing and you just have to deal with it. They're a public company with a responsibility to their shareholders to make as much as they can.

 cincydooley wrote:
Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How? The introduction of an entire community section of their blog that showcases the work done by their customers. They don't have to do that. And then when REALLY cool stuff comes along, they write a full blog post on them.

PP has already occasionally done that on their insider.

 cincydooley wrote:


Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How? The introduction of an entire community section of their blog that showcases the work done by their customers. They don't have to do that. And then when REALLY cool stuff comes along, they write a full blog post on them. People like to ignore these things, and I'm sure Ill get flamed for it, but this is a very real and tangible way to show they value their customer base. You're not going to see it in pricing and you just have to deal with it. They're a public company with a responsibility to their shareholders to make as much as they can.

If you think showing shiney pictures of customers models on their website shows how much they value a customer, more then what PP for example does, you really have no idea what value is. Thats empty platitudes at BEST. More likely marketing for themselves at worst.

PP for exampels, not only gives early views, but gives their customers THE NEW MODEL RULES to play with in their magazine. GW hasnt really done much like that in a long while. You dont even know whats coming until it appears with GW.

People ignore these things because for the most part they have no real value.It benefits them, GW more then it shows customer value.

carmachu wrote:

PP for exampels, not only gives early views, but gives their customers THE NEW MODEL RULES to play with in their magazine. GW hasnt really done much like that in a long while. You dont even know whats coming until it appears with GW.

Early views!?!! Wowie zowie! That's incredible!! Oh wait. Who cares if you rarely hit your production dates?

New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.

Now to be fair, I think their organized play is great. But you have to be somewhere that does a league to benefit from it.

But it's all good. We can ignore things like Games Day or Forge World Open Day or Black Library weekender because its GW and they only do it to make money and not because they want their customers to have a fun experience and rub elbows with the folks that actually work on the games and universe. Nope. Definitely not that second part. Only for money.

But Lock and Load, because its PP, is completely different. They don't care about the money at all. It's all about their customers and is completely different than Games Day or Open Day or BL Weekender, just because.

 cincydooley wrote:
Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How?

How you ask? Easy!

By stomping on a self-published author for having the temerity to use the words "space" and "marine".

Wait... that's not what you were getting at, was it?

Early views!?!! Wowie zowie! That's incredible!! Oh wait. Who cares if you rarely hit your production dates?

Do you really believe that?

New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.

You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?

Now to be fair, I think their organized play is great. But you have to be somewhere that does a league to benefit from it.

Good thing they have the Press Gang, a group of volunteers dedicated to running leagues and tournaments for PP. And if your store lacks a PG, the application process is easy.

 cincydooley wrote:
s like Games Day or Forge World Open Day or Black Library weekender because its GW and they only do it to make money and not because they want their customers to have a fun experience and rub elbows with the folks that actually work on the games and universe. Nope. Definitely not that second part. Only for money.

Don't pad your arguments with straw. It'll only make you itchy. And don’t lump “Games Day” in with things like a Black Library open day. They’re not the same. Let me elaborate.

There’s an upcoming BL/FW Horus Heresy showcase coming up and I made a comment that the event baffled me without explaining way (this was intentional). Several posters lined up to guess why I was so befuddled, but none of them got it right. Most assumed my confusion was a criticism of FW/BL or just the HH showcase itself. Far from it. I applaud the announcement of this HH day.

What baffled me was why only BL/FW do this when GW proper never does. BL puts out preview excerpts of their books, shows off upcoming covers, does loads of interviews with their stable of writers, and generally keeps people well informed of upcoming products and events. FW puts up experimental rules, previews their upcoming models, does little teasers to get people talking/start up buzz about upcoming models, shows off works-in-progress, and does designer diaries with their writers.

GW does none of this. Their own big show (Games Day) is a hollow excuse for a convention as there’s never anything new (except over in the BL/FW areas, as well as any groups with the GW licences: Relic, FFG etc.). They don’t go out into the world and join in at the big gaming conventions (BL and FW often do), they don’t get involved with any sort of tournament scene, even if it’s just advertising (BL and FW often do).

This is why I am baffled by the HH event. Why is there no “Daemonic Weekend” for the massive re-release of the Fantasy and 40K Daemon books? Why is there no preview of “If you thought Daemons were great, wait ‘til you see what we have coming next!” preview? Why is the only concrete information bad iPhone pictures from a WD? What happened to the model cases full of surprise upcoming releases? I still recall the day photos of the first Power Armour GKs showed up. Same day as the new Necromunda Arbite Enforcer models. They were a wonderful surprise, and weren’t out until many months later, but they had people salivating.

Where did that GW go?

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
...
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.

Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).

There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.

Spoiler:

And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.

The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.

The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.

I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.

While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.

I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.

I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.

But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.

I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.

I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.

If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.

The Auld Grump

This exposes something important;

For myself, I'm firmly ensconced as a 4e lover (but in the spirit of charity will refrain from elaborating on how wrong you are ), and for me and mine, WotC's 5e "relaunch" is thus far an almost unmitigated disaster. I started back playing D&D after twenty-odd years because 4e seemed to fix all of the things I wanted fixed while maintaining all of the things I liked. WotC is certainly solicitous of the former playerbase (pre-4e), but from what I have seen they have alienated a large amount of their current player base.

Now, that's not to get onto a tangent on D&D, but to point out that, ultimately, the games evolved to where they are, and they can't change their cores without alienating somebody.

So, for example, we've gotten to the point with 40k that GW has prided itself on it's "beer and pretzel" quality: can it suddenly shift to a tight rules set? What happens to the people that don't want a tight rules set?

On the other hand, let's be realistic here: GW is thus far not showing the slightest inclination to attempt what WotC is trying to do. WotC may be setting themselves up for failure as they attempt to create the uber-rulesset that is all things to all men, but GW is more then happy it seems to tell people that don't like their current direction where to get off.

Something to bear in mind about the WotC situation is that the 'current player base' was smaller than the one that they managed to alienate in the lead up to 4e. They managed to turn the number one RPG into number two.

And the game that now holds the number one position was based on the older rule set that WotC - the 500 pound gorilla - had abandoned, and, in the lead up to 4e, insulted. They tried to dictate what the game would be about, and failed. Do you remember the line 'Dungeons & Dragons is not a game about traipsing through the fairy gates and interacting with the little people. Dungeons & Dragons is a game about combat!'? Or the animated commercial where a complainer was crapped on by a dragon? I do. And I wont forget that either easily or any time soon.

The week before they published that little bit of self serving drivel I ran a D&D scenario, where the PCs did 'traipse through a fairy gate and interacted with the little people'. The game is not always about combat. (And, yes, I know folks have run other styles with the 4e rules - I am talking here about the way WotC handled the lead up, not the rules.)

That kind of attitude, more than the rules themselves, were what alienated a large portion of their fan base.

But in the lead up to 5e they have not been talking about what a horrible, bad, awful bad-wrong-fun game 4e is.

They are making some attempt, at least, to reunite a base that they fractured.

If nothing else, I can give them credit for that.

Now if only they would go back to using the OGL....

Games Workshop, by comparison has handled negative publicity by hiding in a corner and avoiding the press.

GW's fan base is also shrinking, and they are handling it by trying to regain lost revenues by increasing prices rather than trying to bring people back.

The problem with telling people where to get off is that much of the time they do get off, and spend their monies elsewhere.

I have - I spend just as much now as when I bought GW stuff, but what I am buying is from other folks. Not only has GW lost my money they have helped their competition. The battle for my gaming dollar is a zero sum game - in order for Reaper to get one of my hard earned dollars it has to compete against GW... and in that competition they are winning. Mantic is winning. Avatars of War is winning. Raging Heroes is winning. I am buying their merchandise.

GW is losing - I am not buying their products anymore.

It is not a boycott - it is all about perceived value. I get better value for my buck from other folks, so those other folks are getting my buck.

And the reason that some (not all) people complain is that they hope to change that situation. They want to enjoy buying from a company they like.

The Auld Grump, where did this soap box come from, and why am I standing on it?

Kingsley wrote:Not in a reasonable fashion, unfortunately. Believe me, I've tried.

The problem might be that you only see as reasonable that which you already agree with.

cincydooley wrote:You're not affecting any change.

So if the complaining is 100% ineffectual and is largely contained to a single sub forum while there are 13+ other sub forums that deal with GW's games that are largely not full of complaining, why do you care?

Is it that they might be right and that their vocalization of the issues is having an effect? People are pointing out the bad stuff about GW and it's making a difference?

In my local gaming group people eventually had enough of GW's crap and we don't really play their games anymore. For a while there were some defenders of GW, but when pressed, they admitted that their real interest was self interested. They didn't want the number of opponents available to shrink because people were quitting in disgust.

So i get that you want things to be more positive and you want people to ignore the bad things GW does. I really do get that every time GW does something horrible (like make a false DMCA take down claim against and independent author on a charity project) it threatens your long term ability to have a vibrant gaming community. When people quit in disgust, the available player base shrinks.

That's the real reason for white-knighting. To try to protect their own hobby against GW's abuse through propaganda.

Mattman154 wrote:

New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.

You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?

I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.

 Ravenous D wrote:


And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.

If you buy something GW your an apathetic pushover?

Seems a bit unfair. I've spent about $100 on GW the past 18 months, so that makes me a patsy?

How about if you incessantly piss and whine on the Internet about how much of a KEWL DUDE you are for being a contrarian and everyone else is a sheep, you just come across as a whiny self important school girl?

Fairs fair. Let's all make ridiculous sweeping statements eh?

He just said he wanted critical thinking. Many of the arguments made by pro-GW posters have been encouraging apathy, declaring discussion of GW's policies useless and a waste of time, and have said they want all discussion of GW to go away and posters to shut up. There haven't been a lot of constructive arguments coming from the pro-GW crowd unfortunately. They have been painting those who criticize as whiney and rage induced band wagoners.

Not really, I think in general we dont have as much of a problem with it as the rest of you do. We still get the value out of it we want. So all this critical thinking people assume is not happening and the insults that get thrown at us cause us to respond in kind. Indirect insults that call us apathetic or sheep, even if we were not involved in the dialogue now we are being insulted and feel the need to defend ourselves.

Also its like I said, if you want to complain, that's fine just if possible don't let it bleed over into areas where it isn't really necessary. Basically asking that you don't let your hatred for the game get in the way of someone else's enjoyment.

And that's fine that you reach that conclusion. What isn't fine is the posts that are demanding people shut up and slandering one side or the other. I think the key is facts, figures, examples and opinions are expressed and debated. It's hard to get there when I can pull out several dozen examples of posts in the two major threads going on that are dismissive of debate or just mud slinging (from both sides tbf). From what I've seen, the pro-GW side is slipping into muddy waters because it's stopped making as many well formed arguments as it used to and has gone to lazy tactics. The mods have been accused a few times of taking the side of anti-corporate GW because of moderating these types of posts that are largely inflammatory.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Orktavius wrote:

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.

I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.

PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.

I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.

M:tG also has a vastly larger player base than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.

Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.

Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).

There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.

And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.

The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.

The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.

I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.

While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.

I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.

I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.

But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.

I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.

I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.

If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.

The Auld Grump

This one here is an excellent point, as well.

Point being, That WOTC akgnowledged the gak ups and took steps to alleveiate and get ahold of the situation. They even ASKED for fan feedback on the issues. Thier still is a good amount of issues out there on the games as well, but the issues are the ones that everyone across the board has with D and D, not just WOTC saying- "Hey, thats OUR IP, We'll do what we want to, and if you don't like it, gak you!"

 Surtur wrote:
He just said he wanted critical thinking. Many of the arguments made by pro-GW posters have been encouraging apathy, declaring discussion of GW's policies useless and a waste of time, and have said they want all discussion of GW to go away and posters to shut up. There haven't been a lot of constructive arguments coming from the pro-GW crowd unfortunately. They have been painting those who criticize as whiney and rage induced band wagoners.

Well, not entirely. The point is that inarticulate bitching and moaning on the internet will do nothing to affect change. Not a damn thing. Voicing your concerns in well constructed letters to is more pro-active, but it's still not going to do a whole helluva lot.

Now, if one of you wants to become a shareholder, attended a shareholders meeting, and voice your concerns there...well that's affecting change. In order to broaden your sphere of control, you have to broaden your sphere of influence. Complaining on the internet and telling those that have less issues than that they're "patsy's" or "stupid" doesn't help anything unless your goal is to look like an ass.

Like Leth said: there are plenty of us that just aren't as concerned with all these perceived "slights" perpetrated by GW, nor do we take them personally because they understand that GW is a public company out to turn a profit. We're also able to separate the corporate face from those that are actually involved with the game, and from my experience, the latter DO care what the fan says, and are responisive to...and let me stress this.... WELL ARTICULATED concern and criticism. Despite the misgivings of Games Day, it's an opportunity to speak with the folks that actually do have input on the game and fluff, and from my experience they've always been receptive to clean and polite folks.

The point is that one of about three things happen, pretty typically, in any conversation like this:

1. People with a broader understanding of the scope of what they can actually change are called names like "white knight" or are labled "patsys" for continuing to patronzie/defend the company
2. People that think they know GWs business better than the folks at GW propose sweeping changes that will 'automatically' make the company 'better.'
3. People compare GW to Privateer or Wyrd or Corvus Belli, not realizing the massive differences between them, and it becomes a double-standard pissing contest where GW is held to a higher level of accountibility because of some percieved "lack of caring" that the other companies just ooze.

Take, for example, the customer service aspect of replaced parts:

GW - You call, talk to someone LIVE, you read them the batch numbers from your box, you receive an order number (with tracking), and 9/10 times you have a replacement kit within 5 business days (I've typically gotten mine in 3)
Privateer - You enter your missing piece info into a web form. You get a verification email that it's been recieved. You (sometimes) get a confirmation that your order is being processed. You recieve your missing part (usually) within 1-2 weeks.
Wyrd - You send an email to their customer service parts replacement center, You get a response in (usually) 3-4 business days, they say they'll send your part out. You get no verification of shipping. You wait for about two weeks. When your part hasn't come, you email again. You wait another week. It finally shows up.

Now those examples are broad and anecdotal, but from my experience they're pretty typical of the timing and handling of missing/broken parts. How anyone can say that GW isn't unequivocally the best in terms of that, I dont know. But people have on this thread because, despite the very clear superiority in the CS department, Wyrd or PP get the pass because "they care more." I don't understand that.

The OP hasn't posted since last Friday.

The OP has gone on to at least 1 other forum to post 'Look how mean they are to me on Dakka".

8 pages later, THIS was the ultimate troll thread. By the OP, no less.

Well done, Kung Fu Hamster. Well done.

Slight correction to your post about Wyrd's parts replacement. If you put in all of the information they need, they actually don't contact you, they will just ship it out... The last time I personally had issues with Wyrd and missing models was when I first got into the game, my Nicodem box came with 2 Nicodems and 2 Mortimers and 0 Punk Zombies lol but that was before their new parts replacement service...

Also with Privateer's parts replacement, you can go back to the form and track the progress of your replacement...

Edit: With GW I've bought 1 Finecast model that was gak enough to warrant calling customer service, and I couldn't get a replacement, I had a monolith kit with 2 warped sides (it was an old fething kit), and they sent me a single sprue to fix my warped sides. The only time they've every gone above and beyond the duty was before I even started playing. I was just painting models, and I bought an OLD sealed 3rd edition carnifex that was missing it's old metal leg. They sent me a whole plastic carnifex kit (most likely because they don't have any of the old legs). But the guy was jovial and friendly, and said, "hey dude what can I do for you?" and then ended the call with, "Hey man, no worries, we'll get this out to you and it should arrive in about 10 days. Keep cool man." The subsequent calls to them were not as friendly.

 Elemental wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.

You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?

I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.

No... didn't miss them. Just didn't see how they were any different than rules for new models that GW has consistenly provided in White Dwarf over the past year.

If I can't get No Quarter, I'm going to have to buy the book, right? Unless I'm missing something, full Colossal/Gargantuan rules did not come with my Stormwalls or Mountain King. I mean, it's been proposed that they should be right? If the full rules for the GW flyers should be included in the box, right?

Granted, Gargantuans/Colossals aren't limited print run books, but they have rules in them that are REQUIRED to know if you're going to play with those models, rules that aren't present on the stat cards. If there's any shortcoming in this "Death from the Skies" situation, it's that the book should have had a larger print run.

Seriously, the double standard drives me bananas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Slight correction to your post about Wyrd's parts replacement. If you put in all of the information they need, they actually don't contact you, they will just ship it out... The last time I personally had issues with Wyrd and missing models was when I first got into the game, my Nicodem box came with 2 Nicodems and 2 Mortimers and 0 Punk Zombies lol but that was before their new parts replacement service...

Also with Privateer's parts replacement, you can go back to the form and track the progress of your replacement...

You're absolutely right about being able to track with Privateer; I think this is a new feature since I've last submitted one.

@Wyrd: I didn't know they even had a new parts replacement service. The last time I needed a replacment was for hoffman's mech suit, which was embarassingly slip cast (I don't know how the model got through, honestly) and it took at least three emails from me to get them to send the part (despite the fact that I included pictures the first time).

I'll give PP the benefit of the doubt because you can track the tickets now, but not Wyrd, not yet. Especially since they used their inability to ship things efficiently and correctly as a crutch in their KS.

Edit: With GW I've bought 1 Finecast model that was gak enough to warrant calling customer service, and I couldn't get a replacement, I had a monolith kit with 2 warped sides (it was an old fething kit), and they sent me a single sprue to fix my warped sides. The only time they've every gone above and beyond the duty was before I even started playing. I was just painting models, and I bought an OLD sealed 3rd edition carnifex that was missing it's old metal leg. They sent me a whole plastic carnifex kit (most likely because they don't have any of the old legs). But the guy was jovial and friendly, and said, "hey dude what can I do for you?" and then ended the call with, "Hey man, no worries, we'll get this out to you and it should arrive in about 10 days. Keep cool man." The subsequent calls to them were not as friendly.

Why couldn't you get it replaced? I find that pretty surprising based on my experience. I had a Finecast Jabberscythe that had a short pour on one of the pieces, and as has been typical with my experience with them, they sent me an entire new kit, despite telling them I only needed the one piece. Honestly, when I have issues with anything GW, I try to convince them to just send me the pieces I'm missing instead of a whole box, because I'm not trying to scam anyone.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.

You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?

I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.

No... didn't miss them. Just didn't see how they were any different than rules for new models that GW has consistenly provided in White Dwarf over the past year.

If I can't get No Quarter, I'm going to have to buy the book, right? Unless I'm missing something, full Colossal/Gargantuan rules did not come with my Stormwalls or Mountain King. I mean, it's been proposed that they should be right? If the full rules for the GW flyers should be included in the box, right?

Granted, Gargantuans/Colossals aren't limited print run books, but they have rules in them that are REQUIRED to know if you're going to play with those models, rules that aren't present on the stat cards. If there's any shortcoming in this "Death from the Skies" situation, it's that the book should have had a larger print run.

Seriously, the double standard drives me bananas.

What in blazes are you talking about? Since when did WD ever bring model rules in them?

My last no quarter brought full rules for the Archangel, full rules for the new Minion Warlock Trask, full rules for the new Minion Lesser warbeasts, full rules for the new Legion Light Warbeast... When was the last time WD ever brought model rules inside like that?

What double standards are you even talking about?

PhantomViper wrote:

What in blazes are you talking about? Since when did WD ever bring model rules in them?

My last no quarter brought full rules for the Archangel, full rules for the new Minion Warlock Trask, full rules for the new Minion Lesser warbeasts, full rules for the new Legion Light Warbeast... When was the last time WD ever brought model rules inside like that?

What double standards are you even talking about?

Well, in these past twelve months alone we have gotten (and correct me if my timing is off):

Full Rules for the Storm Talon and Ork Airforce

Full Rules for the eldar Nightspinner

Full Rules for the new Tyranid models.

Mini Codex update for Sisters of Battle.

Mini Battle Missions supplement for Death Worlds.

Full Rules for the Ogre Stonehorn

And that's just what I remember from going through my White Dwarfs on Monday.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.

You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?

I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.

No... didn't miss them. Just didn't see how they were any different than rules for new models that GW has consistenly provided in White Dwarf over the past year.

If I can't get No Quarter, I'm going to have to buy the book, right? Unless I'm missing something, full Colossal/Gargantuan rules did not come with my Stormwalls or Mountain King. I mean, it's been proposed that they should be right? If the full rules for the GW flyers should be included in the box, right?

Granted, Gargantuans/Colossals aren't limited print run books, but they have rules in them that are REQUIRED to know if you're going to play with those models, rules that aren't present on the stat cards. If there's any shortcoming in this "Death from the Skies" situation, it's that the book should have had a larger print run.

Seriously, the double standard drives me bananas.

The rules for both Colossals and Gargantuans are available online and for free through the Warroom app, as well as if you pick up the copy of No Quarter (which is available from their back catalog) or the actual Colossals expansion book. There's hardly a double standard there, and it just takes a bit of research into the game to find the rules. Not exactly the same situation at all, although the Warroom app is not the best out there, they do give you access to the entirety of the rulebook at no charge through it. Actually using the faction decks requires a purchase, but you still get the entire base rules of the game and every model available in the Prime and Primal books at no charge.

A bit more generous than what GW has been offering. In fact, I suspect part of the reason why people are making a lot of noise about GW and it's pretentions of being a 'models' company of late is that they consistently charge considerably more for access to their rules than any of the other big minis companies right now. Wyrd, Privateer Press, and Corvis Belli all offer their core rules for free online in one form or another, and their books (which you generally are getting for ease of reference and the fluff) are dramatically cheaper. So GW seems to think that their rules are inherently worth paying a heavy premium for, and yet they haven't put the level of work into them - at least in a number of people's minds - to justify the price tag they are charging for access to them.

I don't expect GW to be extremely balanced - I don't play their games to actually be competitive with them, because they're drek for that. But what I do expect is for the rulebook to clarify all interactions and have language that doesn't require 4+ diceoffs every time there is a contradiction.

 cincydooley wrote:

Well, in these past twelve months alone we have gotten (and correct me if my timing is off):

Full Rules for the Storm Talon and Ork Airforce

Which have just became obsolete with the new book, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 cincydooley wrote:

Full Rules for the eldar Nightspinner

This was in 2010?

 cincydooley wrote:

Full Rules for the new Tyranid models.

What new rules / models? I've been away from 40K ever since 6th hit so I really don't know what these new models / rules are? When did this came out?

 cincydooley wrote:

Mini Codex update for Sisters of Battle.

Again, this was back in 2011, wasn't it?

 cincydooley wrote:

Mini Battle Missions supplement for Death Worlds.

I thought we were talking about model rules? These aren't model rules AFAIK.

 cincydooley wrote:

Full Rules for the Ogre Stonehorn

Again, this was in 2011, right?

 cincydooley wrote:

And that's just what I remember from going through my White Dwarfs on Monday.

So in the past year, we have 1 instance of WD bringing official model rules inside (the Tyranid ones)? And yet you claim that there are no differences and that people that claim that there are are using a double standard?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Slight correction to your post about Wyrd's parts replacement. If you put in all of the information they need, they actually don't contact you, they will just ship it out... The last time I personally had issues with Wyrd and missing models was when I first got into the game, my Nicodem box came with 2 Nicodems and 2 Mortimers and 0 Punk Zombies lol but that was before their new parts replacement service...

Also with Privateer's parts replacement, you can go back to the form and track the progress of your replacement...

You're absolutely right about being able to track with Privateer; I think this is a new feature since I've last submitted one.

@Wyrd: I didn't know they even had a new parts replacement service. The last time I needed a replacment was for hoffman's mech suit, which was embarassingly slip cast (I don't know how the model got through, honestly) and it took at least three emails from me to get them to send the part (despite the fact that I included pictures the first time).

I'll give PP the benefit of the doubt because you can track the tickets now, but not Wyrd, not yet. Especially since they used their inability to ship things efficiently and correctly as a crutch in their KS.

Edit: With GW I've bought 1 Finecast model that was gak enough to warrant calling customer service, and I couldn't get a replacement, I had a monolith kit with 2 warped sides (it was an old fething kit), and they sent me a single sprue to fix my warped sides. The only time they've every gone above and beyond the duty was before I even started playing. I was just painting models, and I bought an OLD sealed 3rd edition carnifex that was missing it's old metal leg. They sent me a whole plastic carnifex kit (most likely because they don't have any of the old legs). But the guy was jovial and friendly, and said, "hey dude what can I do for you?" and then ended the call with, "Hey man, no worries, we'll get this out to you and it should arrive in about 10 days. Keep cool man." The subsequent calls to them were not as friendly.

Why couldn't you get it replaced? I find that pretty surprising based on my experience. I had a Finecast Jabberscythe that had a short pour on one of the pieces, and as has been typical with my experience with them, they sent me an entire new kit, despite telling them I only needed the one piece. Honestly, when I have issues with anything GW, I try to convince them to just send me the pieces I'm missing instead of a whole box, because I'm not trying to scam anyone.

Yeah, Wyrd's parts replacement is a little wonky, and I try not to use it if I don't have to... with the weirdness I've recently had with their store, I'd rather get an email saying a human being has looked at it (even if it's an auto reply lol). And for some reason having bits of my Empire Witch Hunter's cloak thin enough I could see through it, air bubbles on the hand, and a few other places didn't warrant replacement without sending them their model. After about 45 minutes on the phone, I said forget it. It didn't need to be perfect since I'm using it for an RPG mini, but it would have been nice to have gotten a good quality mini. Would have changed my mind on Finecast. Though the other two finecast pieces I have are pretty decent. I'm not looking to scam GW, I just would like a model's quality to match the marketed quality of it (One of the reasons I don't buy "As Seen on TV stuff).

@Alf - Didn't meant to misspeak, Alf. I never thought you were trying to scam . I was just pointing out that I typically ask only for the replacement part and not a full kit. Though to be fair, it's been some time since I've needed to.

@PhantomViper -- You're right with those dates, and quite frankly I didn't realize some of them were so long ago. Again, those are just the pieces I remember off the top of my head from going through them on Monday. I still think it's a double standard, but to each his own. I guess I don't see why the new model rules (that you'll get when/if you buy the model) are that big a deal in the first place, since I assume everyone is buying the books anyway. Again, I absolutely concede that the Death from the Skies book should not have been so limited. But I don't think anything duplicitous was a factor, like so many on here seem to.

@RuneGrey -- You'll have to show me where the gargantuan/colossal rules are free online. I couldn't find them with some quick googling. I actually like WarRoom for what it is; whenever my buddy and I play, we link our iPads up and use it instead of the cards to track stuff. Personally, I like the GW digital codexes better because of their ability to cross reference and quick search, etc, but I don't think WarRoom is bad. Initially, sure, it was awful, but they've fixed most of those bugs. I only wish Corvus Belli would make an army builder app now that mirrored the great tool they have online.

 cincydooley wrote:
@Alf - Didn't meant to misspeak, Alf. I never thought you were trying to scam . I was just pointing out that I typically ask only for the replacement part and not a full kit. Though to be fair, it's been some time since I've needed to.

Lol, I know, but it's quite the easy thing to do. "Hey I want to do a finecast legion of the damned army..." *calls up GW* "Hey this box I bought contains exactly 0 useable models I need you to send replacements."


Actually... on second thought... brb *



* - Not actually going to do this.

 Grot 6 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Orktavius wrote:

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.

I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.

PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.

I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.

M:tG also has a vastly larger player base than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.

Spoiler:

Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.

I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.

Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).

There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.

And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.

The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.

The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.

I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.

While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.

I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.

I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.

But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.

I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.

I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.

If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.

The Auld Grump

This one here is an excellent point, as well.

Point being, That WOTC akgnowledged the gak ups and took steps to alleveiate and get ahold of the situation. They even ASKED for fan feedback on the issues. Thier still is a good amount of issues out there on the games as well, but the issues are the ones that everyone across the board has with D and D, not just WOTC saying- "Hey, thats OUR IP, We'll do what we want to, and if you don't like it, gak you!"

I forgot to mention the public playtest... twice... and it was the major point....

Thanks for bringing it up.

There were a fair number of people that were annoyed with WotC over the secrecy surrounding the early stages of 4e - where 'secrecy' actually meant directly lying about 4e not being worked on at all, even the week before the announcement.

5e, at the very least does not have that veil cast around its conception.

GW... at least does not deny that new editions of the games are in the works. They may churn new editions out too fast... maybe... but at least they don't try to pull a surprise like that.

Mantic, in comparison, is doing much the same think that Paizo did with Pathfinder and what WotC is doing with 5e - open public tests of the rules, and listening to criticisms. (Warpath has changed a lot since the first release....)

White Dwarf has had boasts by the game designers that they didn't listen to playtesters. (In an article about the Knights of the White Wolf, I believe - back in the nineties.... Hold a grudge, me? Why, yes. Why do you ask?) It wasn't until they noticed that no one was buying the Knights that they did anything to actually make them worth their points.

I do not know whether GW listens to the testers now or not - they are amazingly reticent on, well, anything.

During the Paul Sawyer days it looked like they were trying to be a bit more open in White Dwarf - I liked the Fatter Dwarfs - but Mr. Sawyer has been gone for quite good long a while now.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT** Spoilered my quoted post - taking up too much room.

 cincydooley wrote:

@RuneGrey -- You'll have to show me where the gargantuan/colossal rules are free online. I couldn't find them with some quick googling. I actually like WarRoom for what it is; whenever my buddy and I play, we link our iPads up and use it instead of the cards to track stuff. Personally, I like the GW digital codexes better because of their ability to cross reference and quick search, etc, but I don't think WarRoom is bad. Initially, sure, it was awful, but they've fixed most of those bugs. I only wish Corvus Belli would make an army builder app now that mirrored the great tool they have online.

They are not free online, they are free with War Room. If you go to War Room Glossary and click on the Colossal / Gargantuan link you'll have all the rules for that model category there. (not quite the same as free online)

PhantomViper wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

@RuneGrey -- You'll have to show me where the gargantuan/colossal rules are free online. I couldn't find them with some quick googling. I actually like WarRoom for what it is; whenever my buddy and I play, we link our iPads up and use it instead of the cards to track stuff. Personally, I like the GW digital codexes better because of their ability to cross reference and quick search, etc, but I don't think WarRoom is bad. Initially, sure, it was awful, but they've fixed most of those bugs. I only wish Corvus Belli would make an army builder app now that mirrored the great tool they have online.

They are not free online, they are free with War Room. If you go to War Room Glossary and click on the Colossal / Gargantuan link you'll have all the rules for that model category there. (not quite the same as free online)

They're also available on Battle College as well in their entirety. I do recall them being up around the time when Colossals was launched, but they may have taken them down to push Warroom further, which wouldn't surprise me. Lord knows I have my problems with Warroom, but the content of the app is very good and all the rules are available for free to anyone who has a tablet or a laptop that can run an android emulator.

I've actually found GW's digital codexes to be more of a pain than Warroom, mainly because they keep all of their rules hidden on links in each page instead of just spelling them out. I'd much rather be able to just glance at a page and get the rules right then and there than having to touch individual elements in order to pull up what they do, although things like linking magical items and gifts available from the army list are nice. Just not... $45 nice. If I played more armies than just Warriors of Chaos (and I would like to get back into 40k just to be able to play with friends, my models are all from 2nd edition and barely make up 1000 points at best now) I'd actually find buying more codexes to be prohibitively expensive. (I've considered building a slapdash all Deathwing company list from ebay models for around $150, but even that is pushing my budget nowadays.)

 Surtur wrote:

gorgon wrote:
My $0.02 on the whole topic:

As I said in another thread, irrational circle jerks of hate kinda define the interwebz. And make no mistake -- some of what goes on in forums here and elsewhere are exactly that. They certainly aren't all mature "constructive criticism."

Once you accept that, you just make decisions about your involvement. I avoid some sports forums that I frequent after my teams take a bad loss, because I know the reactionary idiots will create an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio. After a few days, things will calm down and the conservations will get calmer and more interesting again.

IMO, Dakka is on a negative swing regarding GW right now in its natural cycle of ebbs and flows. Not that it ever gets cheerily positive regarding GW around here, but it has been more balanced at times. I think the recent trend is a shame, because I think people are missing some of the good things that GW's been doing lately...especially the majorly amped-up release cycle and the back-to-back-to-back replacement of three of the blandest codicies that GW's ever produced. But if the conversations I'd like to have are limited, then I'll just limit the time I spend here. I don't take it personally.

I'm... I'm not sure if that last bit is sarcasm or not.

I'm not sure what bit you're talking about, or why you feel your response required double "I'm"s.

1) That I tend to lose interest in a forum when I feel like there are too many irrationally negative conservations going on (note that I'm making a distinction here between that and genuine constructive criticism)? Well, I do...I have enough real-life issues and problems that I quickly glaze over when conversations turn south. I don't have the bandwidth anymore for internet drama. *shrug* And let's not pretend that all the criticism on internet forums is calm and constructive.

2) That I don't get angry about it or post angrily because I understand that's how internet forums tend to roll? I don't, at least not for quite some time. I starting lurking here around 2001(?) (don't let my post count fool you), and have obviously stuck around through a few different incarnations of the site and all kinds of ebbs and flows. Same goes for the other forums I frequent. Cripes...I go back to rec.games.miniatures.warhammer. I know how it goes.

3) Or that 40K players are about to receive 3 codicies (replacing some real dogs) and 2 supplements in a 6-7 month period (with possibly two more xeno codicies to come this year)? That's about 18 months' worth of stuff at GW's traditional pace. They're actually starting to pay some attention to FAQs and errata too. GW has clearly made some mistakes lately, but IMO the overall tone here lately doesn't quite reflect the proper ratio of positive and negative going on with GW. YMMV. But IMO it's a shame that some people are kinda missing some really good developments from GW alongside their missteps.