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hey guys, im dark apostle, and now that Gw have reached what people are calling there "all time low" ive decided to take my own views and points into this matter, im not some guy who thinks his opinions matter i just want people to think about it, and in this case to think about it fairly, so ive decided to make my own little "newspaper" (if you will) about it.
P.s. im no business graduate or marketing guy, so this is just a laymans point of view if you will.

this is my first article, i like to call it lets take this through GW's eyes;

basicly im hearing left and right, do Gw care about there fanbase anymore? ive come to answer this question in a kind of unique way, heres my answer, through GW's eyes.

wether you like it or now GW is a business, there objective is to make money, like the way you go to work to get your money. now how many people dont like the way GW are doing stuff, im going to cut stuff down to percentages to help

in my GW:
-people that dislike gw's prices = 30%
-people of those that like GW and are using there own money to buy it = 10%
-people that like GW's prices that are kids (surprise, surprise) = 60%

so we already now that most of GW's direct consumers are people that like there prices, dont pay for it and are very prone to impulse buys. so GW are pretty lucky thats a good consumer base.
Gw dont seem to advertise, whys that? why advertise when 60% of your fanbase are prone to impulse buys?
And:
-new members to the hobby = about 5 a day in my one
-number that buy dark vengeance = 4
-number that are kids = 3

so, why should GW cater to adults if kids seem to be there main fanbase, and are starting 40k 3:1?

-number of people with a finished army = 60%
-number of those who are adults = 70%
-number of those with unfinished armies = 30%
-number of those that are kids = 70%
-number of people that have/will start a new army within the month = 10%
-number of those that are kids = 80%

so, kids have newer armies than adults, so? thats not a big deal!
well if you think about it, it is, i dont know about your GW but in mine the kids are pretty bad at staying loyal to an army, and normally start a new army (battle force and all) built it, dont paint it, play it, then, Gw comes out with new codex, rinse and repeat.

lastly:
-people who buy GW regardless of price = 70%
-people who buy GW depending on money = 30%

so in the end GW are getting money and there still here so its definitely working.

GW is made to make models and get money, both for the veterans and noobs, while FW and BL are really only used by the veteran 40kers and so cant really use GW's techniques.

thank you for reading, i would have written more but i suffered writers block half way through. if i think of anything ill be sure to add it in. do you have anything to say? if yes post it, if it makes sense and is a valid argument ill add it to the original post!

thank you and good night (depending on time zone)

EDIT 1:
P.s. i got my data, from GW shops in both belfast and dublin, and 2 other games shop. i got the info over 2 months and avereaged up all the numbers. thanks you and sorry for this not being in the origianl post

Not really much to say on the subject besides if people don't like the prices, vote with your wallet. Not much else you can do.

But on the actual post, try to avoid using overwhelming statistics if they... y'know, aren't statistics. Say stuff like "most of", "majority", "not many" etc. if you don't have precise data.

Interesting.

However, GW really isn't appealing to the veterans market. They often just price things so that it costs loads to get in but afterwards doesn't cost much at all. It's pretty much the same as most hobbies; for Paintball, you have to purchase gear, which is expensive, but only need to purchase ammo, pay for repairs, etc. after the initial investment, and a similar pattern is followed in music.

Unfortunately, GW can't provide an experience curve like music, so they can't give veterans more advanced projects. The closest they have is FW and expansions.

I have significant problems with your experimental technique.

my experimeantal techniques? what techniques?

The Dark Apostle wrote:
my experimeantal techniques? what techniques?

My point exactly! lol

You just spewed out some numbers with no mention of how you gathered them, did you just invent them, does this represent a real store, is it an official GW store, what area is it in, over how long did you gather the data, was it a FLGS that sold other games, did you do any actual comparison to validate your conclusions from the numbers, etc etc etc.

@The Dark Apostle.
I can appreciate what you are trying to do.

But trying to be objective about GW , based purely on the trends inside ONE GW OWNED AND RUN retail shop, is biased to start with.

Have you tried basing an objective critique of GW using the wider table top war gaming industry as a reference?

oh, sorry, ill add this to the original post


Automatically Appended Next Post:
added

The Dark Apostle wrote:
so, why should GW cater to adults if kids seem to be there main fanbase, and are starting 40k 3:1?

Because 40k's continued existence depends on the community, and older veteran players are extremely important in maintaining a community. If you reduce 40k to the "mommy buy me a space marine!!!!" kids there's no stable long-term community, and much less reason to play 40k.

Of course this is entirely typical of GW's current business "plan": focus on short-term profits at the expense of the long-term health of the game, and take the money and run before the whole thing collapses.

OP, before I give you my opinion on your data, root cause analysis and conclusions drawn, could you just state your age?

Did you just make your percentages up?

 Peregrine wrote:

The Dark Apostle wrote:
so, why should GW cater to adults if kids seem to be there main fanbase, and are starting 40k 3:1?

Because 40k's continued existence depends on the community, and older veteran players are extremely important in maintaining a community. If you reduce 40k to the "mommy buy me a space marine!!!!" kids there's no stable long-term community, and much less reason to play 40k.

Of course this is entirely typical of GW's current business "plan": focus on short-term profits at the expense of the long-term health of the game, and take the money and run before the whole thing collapses.

Most new releases are aimed at vets. There are plenty of people who already have say, 5,000 pts in an army, but would still drop £100 on new goodies for their army. Someone getting into the hobby isn't going to be dropping £15 on a single charector model now, is he?

On second thought, I'm removing the reply that I earlier posted.


After reading through ths one, I'm interested to hear more on how you, the OP, came to the conclusion that you did.

Point of contention-

What exactly was your base number based on your percentages, and how did you come to the conclusions that you did?

The Dark Apostle wrote:
wether you like it or now GW is a business, there objective is to make money, like the way you go to work to get your money.

If GW is a business with the main objective to make money, why are all their business decisions of late costing them money?
Why is the total revenue of GW basically flat for 7 years? Why do they sell less each year for 7 years?
Point is, many people on Dakka and elsewhere criticise GW for making absurdly bad business decisions.

The Dark Apostle wrote:
Gw dont seem to advertise, whys that? why advertise when 60% of your fanbase are prone to impulse buys?

Advertising is mostly done to GROW your fanbase, to make your product known to a wider public. Currently, outside UK it is known only to a fraction of their potential customer base. MB and De Agostini have proven with licenced GW products that classic TV advertising brings thousands of new customers. In a time where GW sells less and less per year (indicating a shrinking customer base), recruiting new customers is essential to sustaining your business. Talk to a veteran in your shop, how many new customers your shop had in Space Crusade and LOTR movie time, and you will rethink your statistics.

The Dark Apostle wrote:
so, why should GW cater to adults if kids seem to be there main fanbase, and are starting 40k 3:1?

Because GW has outpriced the kids and only adults can afford to start a GW army. No kid has a disposable income of 1000 $ to pay for a completely functional army.

The Dark Apostle wrote:
lastly:
-people who buy GW regardless of price = 70%
-people who buy GW depending on money = 30%
so in the end GW are getting money and there still here so its definitely working.

GW seems actually convinced that 70% of their customers pay any price. Their business report proved them wrong: Even with all price hikes, revenue is basically flat, so with 5-10% price increase, they lose 5-10% sales. The Hobbit will be a classic example, how absurd pricing plus no advertising results in a sales disaster, contradicting your theories about GW addicts and advertising.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Why is the total revenue of GW basically flat for 7 years?

Probably because it hasn't been.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Why is the total revenue of GW basically flat for 7 years?

Probably because it hasn't been.

If you have ever looked at their year to year and factored in real revenue (meaning inflation factored in), yes they have.

Kroothawk wrote:The Hobbit will be a classic example, how absurd pricing plus no advertising results in a sales disaster, contradicting your theories about GW addicts and advertising.

pretty much hit the nail on the head there- I've not seen anyone buy any hobbit kits other than the rulebook or goblin town- it's just too damn pricey.
£15 for 12 men, though quite a price hike from the old 20-24 man boxes, was still relatively fair in comparison to their other games, but with the hobbit having price increases of around £5 a box, this new stuff is just too much.

and that's not even the worst of it- some of the other boxes like the white council being a huge £45, the three-model kit of bilbo, gollum and a small boat being £20 and the feral wargs (literally just mounts without any riders) being £18, it's getting into ridiculous.

 shrike wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:The Hobbit will be a classic example, how absurd pricing plus no advertising results in a sales disaster, contradicting your theories about GW addicts and advertising.

pretty much hit the nail on the head there- I've not seen anyone buy any hobbit kits other than the rulebook or goblin town- it's just too damn pricey.
£15 for 12 men, though quite a price hike from the old 20-24 man boxes, was still relatively fair in comparison to their other games, but with the hobbit having price increases of around £5 a box, this new stuff is just too much.

and that's not even the worst of it- some of the other boxes like the white council being a huge £45, the three-model kit of bilbo, gollum and a small boat being £20 and the feral wargs (literally just mounts without any riders) being £18, it's getting into ridiculous.

$75 for 4 man sized scale models. I still cannot get over that.

 shrike wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:The Hobbit will be a classic example, how absurd pricing plus no advertising results in a sales disaster, contradicting your theories about GW addicts and advertising.

pretty much hit the nail on the head there- I've not seen anyone buy any hobbit kits other than the rulebook or goblin town- it's just too damn pricey.
£15 for 12 men, though quite a price hike from the old 20-24 man boxes, was still relatively fair in comparison to their other games, but with the hobbit having price increases of around £5 a box, this new stuff is just too much.

and that's not even the worst of it- some of the other boxes like the white council being a huge £45, the three-model kit of bilbo, gollum and a small boat being £20 and the feral wargs (literally just mounts without any riders) being £18, it's getting into ridiculous.

The part that seals it for me is the points only being in the large rulebook. I can't buy the models piecemeal when I know I'd have to pay an extra $140 for the rulebook to use them.

In retrospect, it probably would have been better for me to skip The Hobbit stuff entirely (I bought the box set) and buy someone's unneeded small rulebook from ebay. Hopefully one day I'll get around to playing LotR-with-Thorin's-Company or something and it'll make it worthwhile, but until then The Hobbit box set is sort of a trap without the points costs.

All that aside, the thing that confuses me about the "sell starter sets to kids who will be lucky to fully assemble them" concept is - the starter sets are universally agreed to be the best value out of anything GW sells, to the extent that they're sometimes counted as a plus over the competition. Are they really making so much on a sale of a starter set compared to selling models/books in the rest of their range that it's worth promoting sales of them to kids who'll never return over encouraging long-term investment in their games?

Also, where are these kids getting the money to buy the constant new armies supposed in the OP?? It seems hard to believe their parents are spending thousands of dollars a year on miniatures for them, though I guess I can sort of imagine a family with enough income to spare seeing it worth the money to get them doing something social, somewhat creative and artsy and get them out of the house.

i dont mean new armies as in 2000 points, sorry for not explaining it but i meant 500 points worth + codex and other bitz

 Surtur wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Why is the total revenue of GW basically flat for 7 years?

Probably because it hasn't been.

If you have ever looked at their year to year and factored in real revenue (meaning inflation factored in), yes they have.

...I have. Real terms revenue has generally increased over the last few years. I know it did last year, anyway.

Sorry to comment in a negative manner but, if I am to take your article writing seriously, you need to know your differences between 'their' and 'there'. Simple gramatical errors like that and 'made up' statistics (as there is no quoted references for any of the stat's you've used) doesn't switch me on to having a debate.

Good luck with your writings, I hope your next article improves.

The core point of your article is correct; the majority of GW's direct customers are young, price insensitive impulse buyers, as shown by GW's behaviour regarding in-store gaming, releases and price.

And it does seem to be working; despite the exodus of vets away from GW and into PP/CB, they are managing to keep revenue stable.
But they've been doing this in incredibly short-sighted ways: drastic cost (and service) reductions, and drastic price hikes which is increasing their rate of decline.

So whilst people have been predicting the imminent downfall of GW for decades, I'm really curious to see what state the company will be in after the Hobbit bubble is over.

Herzlos wrote:
So whilst people have been predicting the imminent downfall of GW for decades, I'm really curious to see what state the company will be in after the Hobbit bubble is over.

That depends on how much of a bubble it is and what sort of contract GW are tied into and how much they are paying for it. It's not gathered the same enthusiasm as LotR, which by many accounts was a wild time with stuff flying off the shelves. LotR was massive, everywhere, but I think that's a reflection of the whole Hobbit franchise compared to the LotR one, it's just not as big and I think a few people are going to be burned by it.

Yup, and I'm not convinced they won't be in a bad position once the 'bubble' is over and no-one is interested.

Of course, LOTR didn't take off until the 2nd film, so The Hobbit might still surprise us.

I still think it's far too expensive; I'd have bought the LE starter just to paint if it was £50, but not £75, and certainly wouldn't touch anything else in the range either.

I'd like to ask guys 3 things
1. What should my next article be?
2. English isn't my first language, I'm going to use microsoft word grammar check, I've used it in the past and it seems to work decently well, is this good?
3. Has no one seen the bit at the end where I explain where I got my information?

Id like people to answer my 1st question as im pretty stuck on what to do, I was thinking of doing the whole death from the skies scandal and the info with that

The Dark Apostle wrote:
1. What should my next article be?

Honestly, none. Don't write an article just for the sake of writing an article, if you don't have any good ideas that you really want to write about then just wait until you do.

I applaud the idea behind this article, and would say don't be too disheartened by all the negativity. A lot of the criticism is constructive and if you take it that way then your future articles may gain a better reception.

As for your questions:
1. Whatever interests you the most.
2. Spell check is good but it doesn't catch homophones like their, there, they're unfortunately. So a quick double check on those would also help. I'd also say capitalising "I" and putting the apostrophe in "I've" would go a ways to improving people's willingness to read the content.
3. I saw where you got your information, but it's still a fairly small sample. I guess people prefer aggregated data from several stores, or for you to qualify your conclusions by saying they apply in Ireland. But for example if you had checked out Gamers World in Dublin and perhaps the stores in the other cities in Ireland then you could have spoken with much greater authority (though I recognise that is a pain in the arse and I think it's interesting even if the "statistics" are of limited value).

Thanks Da boss! I think I'm gonna do the death from the skies scandal, also Microsoft word shows the words you should change so you don't end up saying "they're was children over their" when you should say "there was children over there"

The Dark Apostle wrote:
Thanks Da boss! I think I'm gonna do the death from the skies scandal, also Microsoft word shows the words you should change so you don't end up saying "they're was children over their" when you should say "there was children over there"