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hello fellow dakkaites.

Our gaming club have been playing 40k for some time now.
We have all decided to start fantasy aswell since we are getting tired of 40k atm.

I just would like to formulate my premise before my question.

I have never played fantasy at all.
I collected some models about 10-12 years ago and that was it since I didnt have anyone to play ageinst at that time.

Now i have settled on high elves since i alwasy wanted to play them if i got into fantasy.
I have been reading around for some time and have come to understand that teclis is seriously overpowered to a point of being silly.

I was excited to read that with a little luck we would get a new armybook within the year, but now i keep reading on this and other forums that alot of people are hoping teclis will be nerfed into oblivion,
and I have read on several occations people saying the hope he gets nerfed so hard he becomes unusable.

Now i have no problem understanding that he apparently needs a nerf (Bearing in mind i have still not played a game so i dont really know how he works :-P)
But it is clear to me that he needs abit of reworking to work more like the newer armybooks with less power in the SC.
But i do not understand why everyone keeps wishing him to be nerfed to crap so its impossible or just plain stupid to take him.
Someone has to be the best at for say magic like teclis atm is (altho not to the degree he apparently is).

If/when Teclis gets nerfed hard doesent that just make someone else the most powerful mage (altho with a little less of a gap to the next guy :-P) and he will get the greif instead?

Coming from 40k where you get hit by SC with great power all the time in many different areas its seems strange to me that alot of players would like to get rid of a character just because he is very good at something when there is alot of other characters good at other stuff?

Why do we want him to dissapear totally so highelves gets left totally without?

Hope this made sense :-D

/Ogard

There's a difference between being the best and being so blatantly overpowered I want to throw up everytime I read his rules.

Part of me wishing he's going to nerfed into full uselessness is all those HE players using him get a useless model sitting on the shelves, reminding them of their cowardice. Forever.

I don't think it's the fact the Teclis is the most powerful, but rather that he is so powerful that he becomes really rather broken. If he was just as powerful as the second best magic user in the game, with exact stats and abilities but was say, 20 points cheaper (therefore technically making him the most powerful) no-one would have any qualms.

Well that i get.
what i do not get is why he has to be nerfed into full uselessness like sigvatr put it.. why not just to a resonable lvl?

 Ogard wrote:
Well that i get.
what i do not get is why he has to be nerfed into full uselessness like sigvatr put it.. why not just to a resonable lvl?

He doesn't.

People are just angry that he's so good now and therefore want to see him suffer, i.e. become completely useless.

I don't want to see him be totally useless but right now he is retardedly OP. Slann are the most powerful magic users in the fluff so some supposed high elf magic user is like the king of midgets in comparison to a slann. Then you have the undead super slann which is basically like the emperor of mankind from 40k and actually hovers around with his spirit still controling his dead body and throwing magic around (yes he is basically a giant frog skeleton). My point being teclis is supposed to be some giant bad *ss and yet he shouldn't even hold a candle to a slann esp. the most powerful slann of all time which is now undead. Slann are the most powerful wizards since ever and to come even close you'd have to be nagash or some other super powerful wizard or even a god.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
My point being teclis is supposed to be some giant bad *ss and yet he shouldn't even hold a candle to a slann esp. the most powerful slann of all time which is now undead. Slann are the most powerful wizards since ever and to come even close you'd have to be nagash or some other super powerful wizard or even a god.

Slaan don't match the raw casting power of teclis, but for the same cost, you get a general and BSB, a ward save, higher toughness, more wounds, extra power dice to cast spells, make you discard sixes, the ability to force their miscast results onto you(Which teclis can't negate), reroll miscasts, and a loremaster.

It's a rather academic argument given that the High Elves have not had a new book... and neither have the Lizardmen, the comparison is again academic.

The imminent Demon book might give a clue to the way in which Teclis might go, as the Demon special characters were a large part of why Special Characters got such a bad name, and were banned from tournaments.

As for 'nerfing' the trend in 8th has been the opposite.

Slann are pretty annoying though you have to admit. The ability to be invulnerable against anything but magic attacks and having a +2 inv. save against magical attacks is pretty stupid. Btw i can imagine initiative test or die type spells or similar ('cracks call' and the 'brass orb') would totally destroy a slann. I also think their initiative is really bad. That said when you think about it pretty much the only other way to handle them is combat resolution them to death.

I still think teclis overall should look like some fool with a dunce cap on (his magic hat) in comparison to a tooled up slann.

 marielle wrote:


As for 'nerfing' the trend in 8th has been the opposite.

Wrong.

WoC took a hit with the nerfbat, Goblin special characters were nerfed (Skarsnik became totally useless), WoC magic was nerfed (mostly Tzeentch), VC were nerfed - etc.

 Sigvatr wrote:
WoC took a hit with the nerfbat, Goblin special characters were nerfed (Skarsnik became totally useless), WoC magic was nerfed (mostly Tzeentch), VC were nerfed - etc.

Oh no, they took out the broken stuff and made the named characters less effective. The new books are really balanced and offer multiple options. I remember playing the old WoC and VC books a fair bit. The fact that there are more options than gateway and Van Hels is an improvement. The fact that there are now multiple builds that work is also an improvement.

Oh, I do not disagree here. As stated multiple times, I consider the 8th army books (NOT the BRB!) pretty damn well balanced. It's just some things that don't fit the image such as e.g. Skarsnik being WAY too expensive (sad because I play a 100% Gobblin list...he went up 75 points for nothing...) or Chaos Marauders being way overnerfed into non-viableness or that VC blender beast (can't recall the name...hero choice, melee).

Overall, those are damn good books.

Special characters have been going down the road of "supplemental", instead of being "face-beaters". It's a good thing. If they made Teclis give the unit he joins a 5++ as a magical ward of protection, then allowed him to ignore his first miscast but he couldn't cast for the rest of the turn (following the spell he cast), it would be fair. He'd be altered a LOT, but he'd be manageable and not OP. He'd be a great buff to a unit (say Swordmasters or White Lions: S6, ASF, 5++=holy crap!) but he wouldn't be overpowered.

marielle wrote:

As for 'nerfing' the trend in 8th has been the opposite.

Not really. As others have said, the new WOC book basically balanced the army a lot more, so I guess we can expect similar things for other upcoming releases, such as High Elves.

timetowaste85 wrote:Special characters have been going down the road of "supplemental", instead of being "face-beaters". It's a good thing. If they made Teclis give the unit he joins a 5++ as a magical ward of protection, then allowed him to ignore his first miscast but he couldn't cast for the rest of the turn (following the spell he cast), it would be fair. He'd be altered a LOT, but he'd be manageable and not OP. He'd be a great buff to a unit (say Swordmasters or White Lions: S6, ASF, 5++=holy crap!) but he wouldn't be overpowered.

To be honest, all I think Teclis needs as a nerf is to get rid of the "Irresistible Force on any double rule". Even if the rule was something along the lines of "if you roll any double you may choose for it to be cast with Irresistible Force but would then take a miscast" and have some sort of tone-down on Teclis' miscast ignoring, then it'd be fine.

Remove his ability to ignore the first miscast each turn.

Add that he still casts IF on doubles but has to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent gets to choose the result or may add or subtract 1W3 to the miscast result.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Remove his ability to ignore the first miscast each turn.

Add that he still casts IF on doubles but has to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent gets to choose the result or may add or subtract 1W3 to the miscast result.

So basically you don't want Teclis to be a competent yet fair Wizard, but rather someone who blows himself up every time he casts a spell...?

 The Shadow wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Remove his ability to ignore the first miscast each turn.

Add that he still casts IF on doubles but has to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent gets to choose the result or may add or subtract 1W3 to the miscast result.

So basically you don't want Teclis to be a competent yet fair Wizard, but rather someone who blows himself up every time he casts a spell...?

Great power comes with great responsibility.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Remove his ability to ignore the first miscast each turn.

Add that he still casts IF on doubles but has to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent gets to choose the result or may add or subtract 1W3 to the miscast result.

So basically you don't want Teclis to be a competent yet fair Wizard, but rather someone who blows himself up every time he casts a spell...?

Great power comes with great responsibility.

Agreed. Teclis has a lot of responsibility and for that reason he wouldn't go recklessly blowing himself up, and his rules should reflect that.

Remove his "IF on double" rule then.

Personally in my mind there are 7 wizards in warhammer who should be the most powerful

Kroak Hes a FIRST FOUNDING SLAAN FFS
Slann yeah they master magic
Malekith THIS GUY is from the time of the original daemonic incursions his magic should be close to the power of a slann if not close to the power of lord kroak
Morathi: she INVENTED dark magic she was the first elf to MASTER it she should make teclis cry like a little baby and make Slanns worried by her appearing
Teclis should be not much more than a normal archmage except he has a special staff (and btw he had to use same stuff to beat malekith which involved breaking said staff so he shouldnt even have it anymore)
Nagash should be weaker than Morathi and Malekith as both Morathi and Malekith have noth masted and perfected Dark Magic
Kairos Fateweaver should be about the same level as lord kroak/ Morathi
Zachirus the everliving. He should be equal to Nagash sheer fact hes a vampire who has one of the books of Nagash who already was a powerful sorceror then he drank dragons blood.

Teclis will probably only get minorly toned down, but also get a price hike.

With his current statline, he should easily be 550+ points.


My guess as to what happens.


He gets another 50 points tacked onto his price and his ability to ignore miscasts becomes a once per game thing.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Oh, I do not disagree here. As stated multiple times, I consider the 8th army books (NOT the BRB!) pretty damn well balanced. It's just some things that don't fit the image such as e.g. Skarsnik being WAY too expensive (sad because I play a 100% Gobblin list...he went up 75 points for nothing...) or Chaos Marauders being way overnerfed into non-viableness or that VC blender beast (can't recall the name...hero choice, melee).

Overall, those are damn good books.

I'm not sure about the cost now but when i last fought marauders they were 5 pts a piece. Yes i am a skaven player but i feel a unit that is about 5 pts with flails even without armor and is initiative 4 and WS 4 is pretty freaking good. Clanrats for about 4 pts a piece with only light armor isn't that fantastic in comparison. Sure they're different armies and units and there'd be a comparison debate but 5 pts for one of those units with flails is still pretty sick esp. if they were given frenzy or something through 'mark of khorne'. Clanrats can't even take a magic banner. So yeah marauders were way good. Tacking on another point or so would've been a good thing i think but then i haven't seen the new book and the point differences so there ya go.

Marauders with gear are now in the 11-12 point range with no other real changes.

Marauders were too cheap before, nobody doubts that. Almost doubling the cost, however, was a hasty reaction that rendered them no longer viable. 10-11 pts for a model in a unit that has no armor and has to win the first round of combat or is likely to lose? Stupid idea.

8 pts would have been fine. 10-11 pts is too much.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 marielle wrote:


As for 'nerfing' the trend in 8th has been the opposite.

Wrong.

WoC took a hit with the nerfbat, Goblin special characters were nerfed (Skarsnik became totally useless), WoC magic was nerfed (mostly Tzeentch), VC were nerfed - etc.

Monsterous infantry was nerfed from 7th to 8th, but in terms of the game it wasn't, and the same applies to your examples.

You want to nerf Teclis? Get into close combat with him. He'll die extremely fast.

All the whining I see about him just floors me. The guy is super easy to kill. I probably lose him about 50% of the time I bring him, because he's such a boogey man that he's the #1 target.

Considering he will be in a group with likely 2 other models who can accept challenges and he has LoS you can't always simply just target him. Unless someone decides to run him solo and put him in the front of their army. And that has probably happened never times out of never.

Kairos is the right hand of Tzeentch. You know, the god of magic. He even knows things that Tzeentch doesn't. Perfect vision of the future, perfect vision of the past. Greater Daemon and the only thing that survived the well of eternity. I don't, it's hard for me to think of anything that should be better at magic. And as powerful as he is, I don't think he was too much. As he was a monster that sucked at combat. I think he'll get a big point reduction, but not sure what will happen with his magic. Probably be made a whole lot less complicated.

You can't LoS melee attacks.

However it is very easy to either just keep his unit out of melee or have 2-3 heroes int he unit to force him to the second rank.

Its hard to get to him.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You can't LoS melee attacks.

However it is very easy to either just keep his unit out of melee or have 2-3 heroes int he unit to force him to the second rank.

Its hard to get to him.

It gets extremely expensive to keep him in the second rank of a unit. At that point your doing an all eggs in one basket type of thing. Then if one of your heroes dies, not out of the question, he's got to step up, and your in a world of hurt. Smart opponents will not have much difficulty in getting to him.

Also don't forget a lot of magic can flat out waste him as well. Spells that test his toughness or str, he's most likely going to insta-gib.

Teclis has a giant glaring weakness, and it's the ease to kill him. And all to often that is over looked when people want to whine about his abilities.

Yes, he's easy to kill. if you can get to his unit.

O' and forget about killing him with spells because he WILL be in a unit with Banner of the World Dragon.

Then he'll just nuke your army from that mostly safe place.