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 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, he's easy to kill. if you can get to his unit.

O' and forget about killing him with spells because he WILL be in a unit with Banner of the World Dragon.

Then he'll just nuke your army from that mostly safe place.

Hardly, the best Teclis run I have is him buried in a unit of Swordmasters, and giving him Lore of Life. World Dragon would make that build completely useless.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You can't LoS melee attacks.

However it is very easy to either just keep his unit out of melee or have 2-3 heroes int he unit to force him to the second rank.

Its hard to get to him.

Yeah, exactly. And anyone with teclis will do that.

Not everyone, but those that see him as an investment worth protecting will.

Well the game isn't balanced around stupid people...

 Sigvatr wrote:
Marauders were too cheap before, nobody doubts that. Almost doubling the cost, however, was a hasty reaction that rendered them no longer viable. 10-11 pts for a model in a unit that has no armor and has to win the first round of combat or is likely to lose? Stupid idea.

8 pts would have been fine. 10-11 pts is too much.

No they balanced them with flagellants. Flagellants have flails and no armour and cost 12 points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They also can't take command models except for a champion

DukeRustfield wrote:
Well the game isn't balanced around stupid people...

I'd beg to differ. I think this game is incredibly balanced around stupid people. It's the people who can figure out synergies and tactics and list building that break the balance. As soon as one person learns these things...

I am inclined to agree with Stoupe. GW desires that the players make no effort towards actually trying to come up with effective tactics.

Jayo'r wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Marauders were too cheap before, nobody doubts that. Almost doubling the cost, however, was a hasty reaction that rendered them no longer viable. 10-11 pts for a model in a unit that has no armor and has to win the first round of combat or is likely to lose? Stupid idea.

8 pts would have been fine. 10-11 pts is too much.

No they balanced them with flagellants. Flagellants have flails and no armour and cost 12 points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They also can't take command models except for a champion

Which is still overpriced considering I sacrifice D6 now instead of D3.

Yes well as skaven none of my spells really attack one said guy. Also when i was playing a 2vs1 game i was fighting against somebody with teclis in a unit of archers in a building and he had other units basically surrounding said building. Buildings aren't easy to get into and if i skitterleaped a warlock over there i'd also need to cracks call the building just to destroy it. This isn't easy to do since i had to split my magic pretty evenly with my playing partner making my magic nearly crap. If skitterleap did go off and i couldn't get off cracks call the warlock would then be out in the open for a 360 degree archer volley. I also have no screaming bell so don't even mention it.

If you have teclis and know what you're doing he's not easy to stop. He shouldn't be in the front like a couple seem to suggest. He should be in the background somewhere. In the case of the building he could see over everything, the building was hard to destroy and even if we did attack into the building he could choose who fights in the fight so that teclis couldn't be targeted. If that wasn't enough even if he did flee since it is a building i can't pursue i can only take the building. My opponent was such a jerk for what he did he should've been taken into the back alley and shot (not to death though so he could suffer). What we hated is he also laughed about it and just mentioned that he only plays teclis against everybody once to show them how OP he is. He is very much OP and killing him in the hands of somebody that can use him correctly is seriously a pain.

For Skaven, the enemy hiding in a building is one of the best case scenerios too. Cracks Call or ringing the bell can make short work of a building.

 Grey Templar wrote:
For Skaven, the enemy hiding in a building is one of the best case scenerios too. Cracks Call or ringing the bell can make short work of a building.

Except i don't have a screaming bell yet and getting both skitterleap and cracks call when facing a high elf player with teclis while splitting your magic with an ally is pretty freaking hard to do. Chances are at least one of those spells would be blocked and he'd prevent me reaching said target or have one of my wizards out in the open like a sitting duck. This is not a preferable situation for me.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I am inclined to agree with Stoupe. GW desires that the players make no effort towards actually trying to come up with effective tactics.

I wouldn't find the game interesting to read if it was geared towards the 70 IQ (I'm 75). There's only so much they can find play testing and they FAQ stuff they obviously didn't find that some RAWhole decides to exploit. If they wanted it simple they'd have infantry and that's about it. I think if you took ten professional gamers. Like military-type strategists, and gave them a 2500 pt O&G army to build. They'd all come up with stuff that was about 80% different from one another and still pretty viable.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I am inclined to agree with Stoupe. GW desires that the players make no effort towards actually trying to come up with effective tactics.

I wouldn't find the game interesting to read if it was geared towards the 70 IQ (I'm 75).

You're joking right? I mean i found you to be pretty intelligent overall so saying that outside of sarcasm would surprise me. I mean i'm pretty sure IQ is based around certain questions that can leave out knowledge from certain fields but i sure hope that was sarcasm on your end.

One could only hope many armies have more than one successful build but i feel that at least a couple armies (esp. with old army books) need a serious re-working and only have some units which need to be taken. I think you guys have already stated that.

Forest Gump had 76 IQ in the book.

Life is like a box of chocolate dice.

Jayo'r wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Marauders were too cheap before, nobody doubts that. Almost doubling the cost, however, was a hasty reaction that rendered them no longer viable. 10-11 pts for a model in a unit that has no armor and has to win the first round of combat or is likely to lose? Stupid idea.

8 pts would have been fine. 10-11 pts is too much.

No they balanced them with flagellants. Flagellants have flails and no armour and cost 12 points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They also can't take command models except for a champion

Not familiar enough with Flagellants, but as far as I can remember, they are Unbreakable and have their martyr bonus.

...and seriously, stop with that IQ discussion stuff. That just doesn't belong here.

Yeah if i remember flagellants can be pretty good with the boosts you mentioned sigvatr though they're also like special or rare if i recall correctly. Very expensive and normally don't sound too special outside of their rules but they are unbreakable and have that boost.

I don't think marauders with flails and a mark are as good as flagellants though even if flagellants are special or rare.

Tbh I dont give a damn if they nerf teclis but they need to make both Malekith and Morathi way more powerful at magic. Both of them are currently over priced (they are both Dark Elf wizards btw). I want to run malekith but I aint gonna run some 600 point investment who wont do a great deal that a dread lord and a level 4 couldnt do

 djones520 wrote:
You want to nerf Teclis? Get into close combat with him. He'll die extremely fast.

All the whining I see about him just floors me. The guy is super easy to kill. I probably lose him about 50% of the time I bring him, because he's such a boogey man that he's the #1 target.

Good luck getting there with dwarfs. In any case, all that's really needed to balance him, IMO, is to either remove the IF on any dobule rule, or make it so he also has a miscast on every IF he gets; the latter probably needs to be combined with removing/amending to once per game his ignore the first miscast rule.
Right now, I agree he's stupid broken. I fought a battle yesterday where he pretty much singlehandedly wiped out a 2500cpt dwarf army.

Sigvatr wrote:Remove his "IF on double" rule then.

Hooray! Sorted.

djones520 wrote:You want to nerf Teclis? Get into close combat with him. He'll die extremely fast.

All the whining I see about him just floors me. The guy is super easy to kill. I probably lose him about 50% of the time I bring him, because he's such a boogey man that he's the #1 target.

It's never going to be that straightforward. A half decent player will make sure it's as difficult as possible to get to Teclis. Maybe you will get to him in the end, in which case you will probably kill him. But by that point he's probably going to have wiped out too much of your army for it to make a difference.

djones520 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You can't LoS melee attacks.

However it is very easy to either just keep his unit out of melee or have 2-3 heroes int he unit to force him to the second rank.

Its hard to get to him.

It gets extremely expensive to keep him in the second rank of a unit. At that point your doing an all eggs in one basket type of thing. Then if one of your heroes dies, not out of the question, he's got to step up, and your in a world of hurt. Smart opponents will not have much difficulty in getting to him.

Also don't forget a lot of magic can flat out waste him as well. Spells that test his toughness or str, he's most likely going to insta-gib.

Teclis has a giant glaring weakness, and it's the ease to kill him. And all to often that is over looked when people want to whine about his abilities.

Same thing as above really. A good player will be able to make sure Teclis has done his job before he goes down, if he lets him do so at all.

I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

 AngelofBlood wrote:
I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

Competitive players disagree

 Sigvatr wrote:

 AngelofBlood wrote:
I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

Competitive players disagree

Competitive players can't take him as he is banned in most comp packs I believe.

 AngelofBlood wrote:
I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

Did you use 'lore of life'? Toughness 7 high elves and throne of vines for boosts is no joke. Lore of Life is more like Lore of Pain for opponents. Doesn't help he's casting most of this stuff irresistibly.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 AngelofBlood wrote:
I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

Competitive players disagree

Competitive players can't take him as he is banned in most comp packs I believe.

Hmmmmm. I wonder why........

 Sigvatr wrote:

 AngelofBlood wrote:
I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

Competitive players disagree

Bit of a curt reply, but yes, Sigvatr's right. Trust me, in the hands of a good High Elf Player, Teclis is certainly not a waste of points. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'd rather have 2 spell casters and a Character who can kill dreadlords. I prefer the versatility of having a prince in the pocket. I don't use lore of life (shame on me no?) I prefer aggressive magic Heavens, Shadow, Death, or fire. He was killed by a hell cannon tuff 7 doesn't help much against that. I just don't like the idea of sinking 475 points on a single model that's a 30 man unit of Phoenix Guard or 50 spears

Captaintyrius wrote:
Personally in my mind there are 7 wizards in warhammer who should be the most powerful

Kroak Hes a FIRST FOUNDING SLAAN FFS
Slann yeah they master magic
Malekith THIS GUY is from the time of the original daemonic incursions his magic should be close to the power of a slann if not close to the power of lord kroak
Morathi: she INVENTED dark magic she was the first elf to MASTER it she should make teclis cry like a little baby and make Slanns worried by her appearing
Teclis should be not much more than a normal archmage except he has a special staff (and btw he had to use same stuff to beat malekith which involved breaking said staff so he shouldnt even have it anymore)
Nagash should be weaker than Morathi and Malekith as both Morathi and Malekith have noth masted and perfected Dark Magic
Kairos Fateweaver should be about the same level as lord kroak/ Morathi
Zachirus the everliving. He should be equal to Nagash sheer fact hes a vampire who has one of the books of Nagash who already was a powerful sorceror then he drank dragons blood.

In order
Nagash: He is an insane demigod who won't die and had truely immense power - I would say the only one who matched the Slaan in their power to change the world. It took another Demigod or later the full Council of Thirteen and ultra nasty Runesword to even put him down for a few centuries.
Morathi: hmm maybe she is extremly powerful and full of tricks.
Kroak is kinda dead and so was the most powerful but is a "ghost" of his former power - still great but not as he was.
Zachirus is a mere shadow of Nagash's power at its height.
Teclis
Malkeith's sorceryis not his major thing IMO

Demons are hard to factor as they are, especially in the case of Tzeentch just givent he appropiate amount of power to accomplish their task/s.......

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 AngelofBlood wrote:
I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

Competitive players disagree

Competitive players can't take him as he is banned in most comp packs I believe.

Well naturally, as 8th needs restrictions for balanced matches. In unrestricted games, however, I cannot imagine any HE player going out w/o him and still scoring high.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Well naturally, as 8th needs restrictions for balanced matches. In unrestricted games, however, I cannot imagine any HE player going out w/o him and still scoring high.

I can. The unkillable archmage, or the book/shadow mage.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Captaintyrius wrote:
Personally in my mind there are 7 wizards in warhammer who should be the most powerful

Kroak Hes a FIRST FOUNDING SLAAN FFS
Slann yeah they master magic
Malekith THIS GUY is from the time of the original daemonic incursions his magic should be close to the power of a slann if not close to the power of lord kroak
Morathi: she INVENTED dark magic she was the first elf to MASTER it she should make teclis cry like a little baby and make Slanns worried by her appearing
Teclis should be not much more than a normal archmage except he has a special staff (and btw he had to use same stuff to beat malekith which involved breaking said staff so he shouldnt even have it anymore)
Nagash should be weaker than Morathi and Malekith as both Morathi and Malekith have noth masted and perfected Dark Magic
Kairos Fateweaver should be about the same level as lord kroak/ Morathi
Zachirus the everliving. He should be equal to Nagash sheer fact hes a vampire who has one of the books of Nagash who already was a powerful sorceror then he drank dragons blood.

In order
Nagash: He is an insane demigod who won't die and had truely immense power - I would say the only one who matched the Slaan in their power to change the world. It took another Demigod or later the full Council of Thirteen and ultra nasty Runesword to even put him down for a few centuries.
Morathi: hmm maybe she is extremly powerful and full of tricks.
Kroak is kinda dead and so was the most powerful but is a "ghost" of his former power - still great but not as he was.
Zachirus is a mere shadow of Nagash's power at its height.
Teclis
Malkeith's sorceryis not his major thing IMO

Demons are hard to factor as they are, especially in the case of Tzeentch just givent he appropiate amount of power to accomplish their task/s.......

From reading the skaven lore if i remember they gave nagash's great enemy the most powerful magical sword they could make which is none other than the fellblade (i think it was the leader of the pre-tomb kings since they were still alive at the time). Then the whole council of thirteen which is super powerful protected him and with a flick of his wrist he sent out a blast against their hapless willing pawn and several of the council fell dead just trying to protect the guy. Then after taking heart seeing he was ok he hacked the crap out of nagash with the sword and once he did he fell into a river and died somewhere. If i remember correctly they also destroyed all of his body parts except for a missing hand which crawled away ala adam's family style i bet. Somehow with just a hand he managed to come back eventually though weakened and got owned by sigmar and now he's back again if i remember but weaker than ever before. Hard to say how strong the guy is but he basically took down an entire skaven fortress that took shop in his previous stronghold. Most of the warpstone was mined out so the skaven didn't care and it's not like he could pursue them anyway.

I still find it odd the skaven managed to save the world even if they only did it so that they could conquer it instead. Gotta give the skaven credit they may not do too well with armies but when it comes to backstabbing, assassinating, treachery, plagues and spying they are mostly unrivaled in many of them with possibly one serious competitor in each (for plagues nurgle and most of the rest i'd say dark elves).