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 Idolator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
you need to actually answer the question,


what specifically excludes a XXXX dreadnaught from being a dreadnaught,

answer that one specific question,

I've answered it. Context.

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

"Context" is not an answer to the question. If that's the case then you've been proven wrong because of words and language.

Still waiting for an explaination.

It's easy here's an example. If A, B and C are letters in the English Alphabet then A,B and C are all letters. 1,2 and 3 are not letters in the alphabet, because they are numbers and therefore they are not letters. Numbers are sybols used to quantify an amount while letters are used to symbolize sounds in the English language.

Really easy.

If you feel that way, then what is your answer to my question? Since "It depends" cannot be correct according to you, it must be a simple yes or no answer, correct?

Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

Idolator wrote:

If you feel that way, then what is your answer to my question? Since "It depends" cannot be correct according to you, it must be a simple yes or no answer, correct?

Which question is that?

How is it possible that my answer affects the RAW? If the RAW state something, then they state something. My interpretaion has no bearing on what you've read.

Context is important to take into account when reading the RAW. Could you share where the following is stated?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
I only see one definition. So 'll have to go by what you say.

There's the fluff definition and the unit named "Dreadnaught" as a definition. Do we agree?

Also, this is the question I was referring to - if you answered it could you quote the post please? (or link to it since you have issues with quotes)

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

A heavy bolter is a bolter. It is ascribed as such in the Bolter Drill rule as well as it's own listing.

Most space marines are equiped with a bolter. (bolt pistols,bolters, heavy bolters and storm bolters are bolters)

Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Semantics Shemantics, if it says Dreadnought in the name a SR will pick it up and take it out to lunch.

This includes all variations and Contemptors as well.

 Idolator wrote:
Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Page 100 C:SM. SM Bikes are equipped with a "twin-linked bolter". Since a Vulcan Mega Bolter is a bolter, I'm allowed to use that profile when I fire, right?

quote]
Also, this is the question I was referring to - if you answered it could you quote the post please? (or link to it since you have issues with quotes)

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

 More Dakka wrote:
Semantics Shemantics, if it says Dreadnought in the name a SR will pick it up and take it out to lunch.

This includes all variations and Contemptors as well.

Not according to the people who write the rules for Contemptors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:

Also, this is the question I was referring to - if you answered it could you quote the post please? (or link to it since you have issues with quotes)

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

i didn't answer the question. I informed you that I wouldn't answer any question until you answered mine. You've spent quite some time trying to confuse the issue. You are waiting to see where I stand to make a retort. SInce I was the one that asked first, it would stand to reason that this would be good form.

I did answer your question. You refused my answer (for no good reason I'll add).

Context determines when an Ironclad Dreadnaught is or is not a Dreadnaught.

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

Yes, Venerables can also, Whats your point ?

Wrong, given FW have stated contemptors cannot be carried in a SR.

Again: What permits you to claim a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought? [in the SM codex, for clarity] The word "Dreadnought" does not do so, as it is part of a composite noun

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Page 100 C:SM. SM Bikes are equipped with a "twin-linked bolter". Since a Vulcan Mega Bolter is a bolter, I'm allowed to use that profile when I fire, right?

Please answer the question.

 Warp Angels wrote:

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

Yes, Venerables can also, Whats your point ?

So Ironclads can too - since they're Dreadnaughts, right?

And Venerables can grab a Seismic Hammer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Page 100 C:SM. SM Bikes are equipped with a "twin-linked bolter". Since a Vulcan Mega Bolter is a bolter, I'm allowed to use that profile when I fire, right?

Please answer the question.

Which one? I've answered every question I've been posed I believe.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Page 100 C:SM. SM Bikes are equipped with a "twin-linked bolter". Since a Vulcan Mega Bolter is a bolter, I'm allowed to use that profile when I fire, right?

Yes, and Heavy Bolters, if you dont fancy a vulcan mega bolter.

After all, the Name isnt actually a name, but a category / set denominator. Oh, and of course Fire Dragons are part of the set (dragons)

rigeld2 wrote:

 Warp Angels wrote:

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

Yes, Venerables can also, Whats your point ?

So Ironclads can too - since they're Dreadnaughts, right?

And Venerables can grab a Seismic Hammer?

Wrong because thay have different entrys in the Army list section of C:SM which allows them to buy their own upgrades
BUT, heres the suprising part they all have the same page reference (page 65) Which when you go there is headed up as DREADNOUGHTS and goes to list all 3 of the flavours

 Warp Angels wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Warp Angels wrote:

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

Yes, Venerables can also, Whats your point ?

So Ironclads can too - since they're Dreadnaughts, right?

And Venerables can grab a Seismic Hammer?

Wrong because thay have different entrys in the Army list section of C:SM which allows them to buy their own upgrades

Oh - so Dreadnaught doesn't always refer to all 3? Sometimes it refers to just one of them?

BUT, heres the suprising part they all have the same page reference (page 65) Which when you go there is headed up as DREADNOUGHTS and goes to list all 3 of the flavours

And one of the flavors is named Dreadnaught, right?
Can Dreadnaughts take dual Twin Linked Autocannons? You've already said yes. So that must mean that Ironclad Dreadnaughts can take them.
What? You don't agree? But you just said that "Dreadnaught" can refer to all 3! And you answered my question in the positive!
Oh.. So the answer to "Can Dreadnaughts take dual Twin Linked Autocannons?" is "It depends on which Dreadnaught you're talking about." That's a fair statement.

What (specificaly) precludes an Ironclad Dreadnaught and Venerable Dreadnaught from being considered a Dreadnaught?

What terms, where? Please cite pages.

That has been the question for quite a while.

i am refusing from being drug into the weeds here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Page 100 C:SM. SM Bikes are equipped with a "twin-linked bolter". Since a Vulcan Mega Bolter is a bolter, I'm allowed to use that profile when I fire, right?

Yes, and Heavy Bolters, if you dont fancy a vulcan mega bolter.

Sure, but I'd rather have Str6 AP3 Heavy 15 Twin Linked than a heavy bolter.
Go big or stay home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:
What (specificaly) precludes an Ironclad Dreadnaught and Venerable Dreadnaught from being considered a Dreadnaught?

What terms, where? Please cite pages.

That has been the question for quite a while.

I've answered that. I'll quote the most recent post for you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Also, this is the question I was referring to - if you answered it could you quote the post please? (or link to it since you have issues with quotes)

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

i didn't answer the question. I informed you that I wouldn't answer any question until you answered mine. You've spent quite some time trying to confuse the issue. You are waiting to see where I stand to make a retort. SInce I was the one that asked first, it would stand to reason that this would be good form.

I did answer your question. You refused my answer (for no good reason I'll add).

Context determines when an Ironclad Dreadnaught is or is not a Dreadnaught.

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

A heavy bolter is a bolter. It is ascribed as such in the Bolter Drill rule as well as it's own listing.

Most space marines are equiped with a bolter. (bolt pistols,bolters, heavy bolters and storm bolters are bolters)

Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Let me rephrase that then.

Premise 1. A Vulcan mega-bolter is a bolter. Do you agree?
Premise 2. Black Templars with access to the armoury can take a bolter for X points. Furthermore BT Command Squads, Sword Brethren, Techmarine, Crusader Squads, all Space Marine Bikes, SW iron Priests, Grey Hunters Pack all either have a bolter or is one of their options.
Therefore all of those mentioned in Premise 2 can have a Vulcan mega-bolter.

Do you agree?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

A heavy bolter is a bolter. It is ascribed as such in the Bolter Drill rule as well as it's own listing.

Most space marines are equiped with a bolter. (bolt pistols,bolters, heavy bolters and storm bolters are bolters)

Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Let me rephrase that then.

Premise 1. A Vulcan mega-bolter is a bolter. Do you agree?
Premise 2. Black Templars with access to the armoury can take a bolter for X points. Furthermore BT Command Squads, Sword Brethren, Techmarine, Crusader Squads, all Space Marine Bikes, SW iron Priests, Grey Hunters Pack all either have a bolter or is one of their options.
Therefore all of those mentioned in Premise 2 can have a Vulcan mega-bolter.

Do you agree?

I don't have that codex, any opinion that I have would be ill informed.

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

A heavy bolter is a bolter. It is ascribed as such in the Bolter Drill rule as well as it's own listing.

Most space marines are equiped with a bolter. (bolt pistols,bolters, heavy bolters and storm bolters are bolters)

Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Let me rephrase that then.

Premise 1. A Vulcan mega-bolter is a bolter. Do you agree?
Premise 2. Black Templars with access to the armoury can take a bolter for X points. Furthermore BT Command Squads, Sword Brethren, Techmarine, Crusader Squads, all Space Marine Bikes, SW iron Priests, Grey Hunters Pack all either have a bolter or is one of their options.
Therefore all of those mentioned in Premise 2 can have a Vulcan mega-bolter.

Do you agree?

I don't have that codex, any opinion that I have would be ill informed.

You don't have C:BT, C:SM, C:SW? None of those? How about C:GK? In that Codex (page 55) Combi-weapons are defined as bolters + the combi weapon.
So of course anything that can purchase a combi-weapon can use a Vulcan Mega Bolter.

You don't have C:BT, C:SM, C:SW? None of those? How about C:GK? In that Codex (page 55) Combi-weapons are defined as bolters + the combi weapon.
So of course anything that can purchase a combi-weapon can use a Vulcan Mega Bolter.

Idolator wrote:

You don't have C:BT, C:SM, C:SW? None of those? How about C:GK? In that Codex (page 55) Combi-weapons are defined as bolters + the combi weapon.
So of course anything that can purchase a combi-weapon can use a Vulcan Mega Bolter.

Please answer the question.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
What (specificaly) precludes an Ironclad Dreadnaught and Venerable Dreadnaught from being considered a Dreadnaught?

What terms, where? Please cite pages.

That has been the question for quite a while.

I've answered that. I'll quote the most recent post for you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Also, this is the question I was referring to - if you answered it could you quote the post please? (or link to it since you have issues with quotes)

Is a dreadnaught allowed to have dual Twin Linked Autocannons?

i didn't answer the question. I informed you that I wouldn't answer any question until you answered mine. You've spent quite some time trying to confuse the issue. You are waiting to see where I stand to make a retort. SInce I was the one that asked first, it would stand to reason that this would be good form.

I did answer your question. You refused my answer (for no good reason I'll add).

Context determines when an Ironclad Dreadnaught is or is not a Dreadnaught.

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

Yes a HB is a bolter

No, Space marines are equipped with BOLTGUNS - a specific type of bolter

No, as above, unless they have the option to swap in their army list entry

Warp Angels wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

Yes a HB is a bolter

No, Space marines are equipped with BOLTGUNS - a specific type of bolter

No, as above, unless they have the option to swap in their army list entry

Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

A heavy bolter is a bolter. It is ascribed as such in the Bolter Drill rule as well as it's own listing.

Most space marines are equiped with a bolter. (bolt pistols,bolters, heavy bolters and storm bolters are bolters)

Most Space marines are not equiped with a heavy bolter, it is listed that they are equiped with a bolt gun.

Let me rephrase that then.

Premise 1. A Vulcan mega-bolter is a bolter. Do you agree?
Premise 2. Black Templars with access to the armoury can take a bolter for X points. Furthermore BT Command Squads, Sword Brethren, Techmarine, Crusader Squads, all Space Marine Bikes, SW iron Priests, Grey Hunters Pack all either have a bolter or is one of their options.
Therefore all of those mentioned in Premise 2 can have a Vulcan mega-bolter.

Do you agree?

 Warp Angels wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

Yes a HB is a bolter

No, Space marines are equipped with BOLTGUNS - a specific type of bolter

No, as above, unless they have the option to swap in their army list entry

I already addressed this in an earlier post. BT and certain SW models either can take a bolter or come standard with a bolter. Furthermore, all SM Bikes come with TL-bolters, and all combi-weapons are a bolter + an additional 1 shot weapon (except for ork kombi-weapons).

 Happyjew wrote:

 Warp Angels wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Premise 1: A Heavy Bolter is a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Premise 2: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Bolter. Agree or Disagree?
Logical Conclusion: Most Space Marines are equipped with a Heavy Bolter. Agree or Disagree?

Yes a HB is a bolter

No, Space marines are equipped with BOLTGUNS - a specific type of bolter

No, as above, unless they have the option to swap in their army list entry

I already addressed this in an earlier post. BT and certain SW models either can take a bolter or come standard with a bolter. Furthermore, all SM Bikes come with TL-bolters, and all combi-weapons are a bolter + an additional 1 shot weapon (except for ork kombi-weapons).

Sorry i missed that, so all of those codecies are pre 6th edition when all the bolt weapons were fitted in the same category - Bolters, BT is even a 4th edition codex, but if you look into C: DA it clears all of that up (Probably because it is a 6th Edition codex, Written for 6th Edition - Suprise Suprise)

It has become obvious that there is no answer to the question: What precludes an Ironclad Dreadnaught from being considered a Dreadnaught.

The last answer that i received contained two qoutes from a fellow stating that he had already answered, but failed to contain the answer.

Stating "Context", "Content", "Words" or "Stuff" is not an answer without page citation and relevant rules. If you cannot point to the "context" to which you are refering or the "stuff" that makes a rule work a certain way, then there is no point of reference.


Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

An Ironclad Dreadnought is a dreadnought, but is not a Dreadnought.

 Idolator wrote:
It has become obvious that there is no answer to the question: What precludes an Ironclad Dreadnaught from being considered a Dreadnaught.

The last answer that i received contained two qoutes from a fellow stating that he had already answered, but failed to contain the answer.

Stating "Context", "Content", "Words" or "Stuff" is not an answer without page citation and relevant rules. If you cannot point to the "context" to which you are refering or the "stuff" that makes a rule work a certain way, then there is no point of reference.

Give context to the question then. Saying "Context" is not an answer is a flat out lie.
"Were you awake yesterday?" Unless you were awake for a 24 hour period, you cannot answer yes or no. Even then, which "yesterday" are they using - what time zone?
Context matters. Pretending otherwise is absolutely and without caveats incorrect.

edit: So now you're accusing me of not meeting the Tenets?
Please, define the word "a" in the BRB please. Cite page number.