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Sir_Prometheus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Vulcan Mega Bolter a bolter?

It is a bolter. It is not a boltgun=bolter, bolter. This is why GW started referring to "bolters" as boltguns, btw.

Look, you KNOW what the RAI on this is. I know that not a dingle one of you wonders what the FAQ would say if GW bothered to FAQ it. so why are we still discussing it? That's my point.

Because people are claiming that RAI is RAW. and according to GW Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, Storm bolters, Heavy bolters and Vulcan mega-bolters are boltguns, or bolters.

Because there's a difference between RAW and RAI. Some people enjoy discussing RAW after determining that its silly in this case and the Intent is obvious.

So if the VMB is a bolter, how do you know if a given rule refers to "boltgun" or "VMB" when it says bolter?

Page 100 C:SM bikes for example.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because there's a difference between RAW and RAI. Some people enjoy discussing RAW after determining that its silly in this case and the Intent is obvious.

So if the VMB is a bolter, how do you know if a given rule refers to "boltgun" or "VMB" when it says bolter?

Page 100 C:SM bikes for example.

Actually rigeld, the section in the BRB is entitled BOLTGUNS. So apparently I was right in regards to my Space Marine question earlier. Huzzah!

 Happyjew wrote:


You claim that because Venerble Dreadnought has Dreadnought in the name it must be a Dreadnought. I make the same claim with something else, and I am wrong?

No, you didn't, not even vaguely. You said that if a heavy Flamer must also be a heavy weapon, because it has "heavy" in it. Except that one is a class of weapons and another is a specific weapon. If there were a weapon called "Heavy" (let's say it was rapidfire, for kicks) you might have a point, except for the simple fact that "heavy" is an adjective and you're just being silly. But you see a Heavy Flamer IS a flamer.....which is the very essence of why you're talking nonsense.

And what is a bolter? According to GW it is also known as a boltgun which encompasses 5 weapons who have exactly one thing in common, their ammunition. Since a Vulcan mega-bolter is a boltgun and Space Marines are armed with boltguns...

You are very specifically wrong, here. "A bolter" can sometimes refer to whole class of bolt-weapons (because GW was much more loose with the term in the past), or more commonly a boltgun. But a "boltgun" is only ever one thing, the Str 4, AP5 rapidfire weapon.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

And what is a bolter? According to GW it is also known as a boltgun which encompasses 5 weapons who have exactly one thing in common, their ammunition. Since a Vulcan mega-bolter is a boltgun and Space Marines are armed with boltguns...

You are very specifically wrong, here. "A bolter" can sometimes refer to whole class of bolt-weapons (because GW was much more loose with the term in the past), or more commonly a boltgun. But a "boltgun" is only ever one thing, the Str 4, AP5 rapidfire weapon.

No a boltgun is 1 of 5 weapons as per GW on page 56 of the BRB.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because there's a difference between RAW and RAI. Some people enjoy discussing RAW after determining that its silly in this case and the Intent is obvious.

RAW as written inherently depends on the definitions being used. GW is, as rule, quite loose with their definitions. I assure you that Ironclads, BA libby dreads, fruiosos, venerable dreads, are all still dreadnoughts, by "definition".

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because there's a difference between RAW and RAI. Some people enjoy discussing RAW after determining that its silly in this case and the Intent is obvious.

So if the VMB is a bolter, how do you know if a given rule refers to "boltgun" or "VMB" when it says bolter?

Page 100 C:SM bikes for example.

Actually rigeld, the section in the BRB is entitled BOLTGUNS. So apparently I was right in regards to my Space Marine question earlier. Huzzah!

Wait - the only valid definition is the fluff one though, remember?

 Happyjew wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

And what is a bolter? According to GW it is also known as a boltgun which encompasses 5 weapons who have exactly one thing in common, their ammunition. Since a Vulcan mega-bolter is a boltgun and Space Marines are armed with boltguns...

You are very specifically wrong, here. "A bolter" can sometimes refer to whole class of bolt-weapons (because GW was much more loose with the term in the past), or more commonly a boltgun. But a "boltgun" is only ever one thing, the Str 4, AP5 rapidfire weapon.

No a boltgun is 1 of 5 weapons as per GW on page 56 of the BRB.

That however doesn't quite follow the precedent set by the Tyranid FAQ. That FAQ answer was in relations to models and their subtypes. Weapons would exceed the grasp of that.

Now, since I showed, using both of your examples, that the FAQ don't change rules merely clarify how they are to be read, do you agree that an Ironclad Dreadnought is a Dreadnought?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait - the only valid definition is the fluff one though, remember?

That assertion is incorrect. The only definition for that particular unit, Dreadnought, is located in the "fluff". No one ever said that was the case in all situations.

 Happyjew wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

And what is a bolter? According to GW it is also known as a boltgun which encompasses 5 weapons who have exactly one thing in common, their ammunition. Since a Vulcan mega-bolter is a boltgun and Space Marines are armed with boltguns...

You are very specifically wrong, here. "A bolter" can sometimes refer to whole class of bolt-weapons (because GW was much more loose with the term in the past), or more commonly a boltgun. But a "boltgun" is only ever one thing, the Str 4, AP5 rapidfire weapon.

No a boltgun is 1 of 5 weapons as per GW on page 56 of the BRB.

Ok.....now I feel like you're just being cute. There is indeed a section of of Boltguns, under which there are 5 weapons are listed. There's still only one "boltgun" weapon, but whatever, I'm tired of arguing it, you have more ways to be silly than I have time to correct.

So fine, by the same logic, Dreadnoughts must include a rather large set, right? Rendering this whole discussion mute? Glad to hear we're done now.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

And what is a bolter? According to GW it is also known as a boltgun which encompasses 5 weapons who have exactly one thing in common, their ammunition. Since a Vulcan mega-bolter is a boltgun and Space Marines are armed with boltguns...

You are very specifically wrong, here. "A bolter" can sometimes refer to whole class of bolt-weapons (because GW was much more loose with the term in the past), or more commonly a boltgun. But a "boltgun" is only ever one thing, the Str 4, AP5 rapidfire weapon.

No a boltgun is 1 of 5 weapons as per GW on page 56 of the BRB.

Ok.....now I feel like you're just being cute. There is indeed a section of of Boltguns, under which there are 5 weapons are listed. There's still only one "boltgun" weapon, but whatever, I'm tired of arguing it, you have more ways to be silly than I have time to correct.

So fine, by the same logic, Dreadnoughts must include a rather large set, right? Rendering this whole discussion mute? Glad to hear we're done now.

Dreadnoughts include a very large set if any reference to "boltgun" can mean "VMB"

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

And what is a bolter? According to GW it is also known as a boltgun which encompasses 5 weapons who have exactly one thing in common, their ammunition. Since a Vulcan mega-bolter is a boltgun and Space Marines are armed with boltguns...

You are very specifically wrong, here. "A bolter" can sometimes refer to whole class of bolt-weapons (because GW was much more loose with the term in the past), or more commonly a boltgun. But a "boltgun" is only ever one thing, the Str 4, AP5 rapidfire weapon.

No a boltgun is 1 of 5 weapons as per GW on page 56 of the BRB.

Ok.....now I feel like you're just being cute. There is indeed a section of of Boltguns, under which there are 5 weapons are listed. There's still only one "boltgun" weapon, but whatever, I'm tired of arguing it, you have more ways to be silly than I have time to correct.

So fine, by the same logic, Dreadnoughts must include a rather large set, right? Rendering this whole discussion mute? Glad to hear we're done now.

Dreadnoughts include a very large set if any reference to "boltgun" can mean "VMB"

That's not the same thing. That would be like saying any dreadnought is a venerable dreadnought.

It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

Is a hoover a vacuum from the hoover company or is it a generic term? Context is usually enough to tell
Is a bolter a VMB or is it a bolt gun? Context again.
When it comes to the flyer if the rules are written the same as the BA codex then by that context it should be them all as in the BA codex is allows for them all.

rigeld2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
That point is moot, because for every "so a flamer is a heavy flamer and a bolter is a vulcan mega-bolter" argument, there is a counter "so a Loota is not an ork and a Scout Sergeant is not a space marine" argument.

The latter aren't "counter-arguments". They're more examples of poor writing.

Sure they are. You are basing an argument on the fact that the unit composition defines the unit. If that is true, then there are no orks in the ork codex aside from boyz. That is just as silly as the bolters being vulcan mega-bolters.

So the line of reasoning should be dropped because it creates issues across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

And he's saying that all Ven Dreads are Dreadnoughts, but not all Dreadnoughts are Ven Dreads.

Just like all VMBs are bolters, but not all bolters are VMBs.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

Is a hoover a vacuum from the hoover company or is it a generic term? Context is usually enough to tell
Is a bolter a VMB or is it a bolt gun? Context again.
When it comes to the flyer if the rules are written the same as the BA codex then by that context it should be them all as in the BA codex is allows for them all.

Point of order - the BA codex has all dreadnoughts as "1 Dreadnought"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
That point is moot, because for every "so a flamer is a heavy flamer and a bolter is a vulcan mega-bolter" argument, there is a counter "so a Loota is not an ork and a Scout Sergeant is not a space marine" argument.

The latter aren't "counter-arguments". They're more examples of poor writing.

Sure they are. You are basing an argument on the fact that the unit composition defines the unit. If that is true, then there are no orks in the ork codex aside from boyz. That is just as silly as the bolters being vulcan mega-bolters.

So the line of reasoning should be dropped because it creates issues across the board.

And.., that's a lie. That is not how I'm basing my argument. You've made the same mistake Idolator did.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

And he's saying that all Ven Dreads are Dreadnoughts, but not all Dreadnoughts are Ven Dreads.

Just like all VMBs are bolters, but not all bolters are VMBs.

Yes!
Now - how do you know which one you're talking about? At least you've agreed there are 2 definitions to the word Dreadnought.

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

Are you familiar with what a subset is? I.e. all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

In other news, I can't believe you said this with a straight face. I'm starting to just assume you're trolling, now.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

Are you familiar with what a subset is? I.e. all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

In other news, I can't believe you said this with a straight face. I'm starting to just assume you're trolling, now.

Right, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts, Furioso Librarians are all dreadnoughts. Not all dreadnoughts are Dreadnoughts.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is the same thing.

You're saying a Venerable Dreadnought is a Dreadnought because its in the name.
I'm saying a VMB is a bolter because its in the name.

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

Are you familiar with what a subset is? I.e. all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

In other news, I can't believe you said this with a straight face. I'm starting to just assume you're trolling, now.

Yes, I'm familiar with what a subset is. I'm sorry, Idolator was arguing that there was only one definition of Dreadnought and that Ironclad Dread == Dread.

Let me try and reset my brain. I'm not trolling.

I got that the BA codex is better written than the SM one but which is it a generic term or the "brand" that the SR refers to?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I got that the BA codex is better written than the SM one but which is it a generic term or the "brand" that the SR refers to?

Who knows? Logically it refers to any and all types of Dreadnought, which is how most people would play it and (if they ever get around to it) how GW would most likely FAQ it. The problem is it only says "Dreadnought" which is a proper noun and can only refer to the model named Dreadnought (which for the BA codex is any type of Dreadnought).

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I got that the BA codex is better written than the SM one but which is it a generic term or the "brand" that the SR refers to?

Better written than the SM and GK one.

I haven't check the BT codex.

Well the poll is pretty clear . 93%! I don't think I've ever seen it that high on something like this... you'll have no problem getting people to allow you to carry venerable / ironclad dreads. If they even ever thought that wouldn't be an option.

The other thing is that the GK SR has no permission to carry jump infantry. So it is possible that this new book might decide to have a 3rd flavour of SR armed with another type of missile and a 3rd transport allowance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I got that the BA codex is better written than the SM one but which is it a generic term or the "brand" that the SR refers to?

Who knows? Logically it refers to any and all types of Dreadnought, which is how most people would play it and (if they ever get around to it) how GW would most likely FAQ it. The problem is it only says "Dreadnought" which is a proper noun and can only refer to the model named Dreadnought (which for the BA codex is any type of Dreadnought).

Just as an aside to the back and forth don't GW sometimes capitalise classes too?
So the group might again be the one being referred to?

 RiTides wrote:
Well the poll is pretty clear . 93%! I don't think I've ever seen it that high on something like this... you'll have no problem getting people to allow you to carry venerable / ironclad dreads. If they even ever thought that wouldn't be an option.

I think everyone has agreed that the intent and how they would play it is yes. I think the problem is some people voted based on that, and others (such as myself) voted on RAW.

 Happyjew wrote:

Right, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts, Furioso Librarians are all dreadnoughts. Not all dreadnoughts are Dreadnoughts.

There are is no reference to dreadnought in the books. If it's a Dreadnought variant then it would always have to be a Dreadnought..

I was using "dreadnought" to refer to the class that all of those are part of, and "Dreadnought" to refer to the actual model.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Therefore anywhere Dreadnought is used in the rules, it can also mean Ven Dread.
Therefore anywhere bolter is used in the rules, it can mean VMB.

Is a hoover a vacuum from the hoover company or is it a generic term? Context is usually enough to tell
Is a bolter a VMB or is it a bolt gun? Context again.
When it comes to the flyer if the rules are written the same as the BA codex then by that context it should be them all as in the BA codex is allows for them all.

 Happyjew wrote:
only says "Dreadnought" which is a proper noun

It's not a proper noun. Happy Jew is a proper noun. Bjorn is a proper noun.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Just as an aside to the back and forth don't GW sometimes capitalise classes too?
So the group might again be the one being referred to?

They capitalize darn near everything, probably for trademarking purposes. That's why Dreadnought is always capitalized, as well as Space Marine and Ork. Ork is not a proper noun any more then Bike. But Bike is capitalized all the same.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
only says "Dreadnought" which is a proper noun

It's not a proper noun. Happy Jew is a proper noun. Bjorn is a proper noun.

So what is the name (by which I mean proper noun) for the walker-type vehicle in Codex Space Marines that is not an Ironclad Dreadnought or Venerable Dreadnought?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Just as an aside to the back and forth don't GW sometimes capitalise classes too?
So the group might again be the one being referred to?

They capitalize darn near everything, probably for trademarking purposes. That's why Dreadnought is always capitalized, as well as Space Marine and Ork. Ork is not a proper noun any more then Bike. But Bike is capitalized all the same.

Except for bolters, which led to the whole are heavy bolters and bolt pistols affected by that one DA Banner that makes bolters Salvo 2/4 weapons.