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The consensus always is that generally there are much better ways to spend 180 points than a Punisher (unless your list-tailoring towards an army that is vulnerable to it)

It definitely is a a really fun tank for non-competitive games though.

 Sir Mammoth wrote:
The consensus always is that generally there are much better ways to spend 180 points than a Punisher (unless your list-tailoring towards an army that is vulnerable to it)

It definitely is a a really fun tank for non-competitive games though.

Oh? Who's part of that consensus? You?
I think if you look though many of the above posts you'll see the punisher can do plenty of things well, and it is probably the most versatile of all the LR tanks. This makes it rather good for TAC lists.

 Sir Mammoth wrote:
The consensus always is that generally there are much better ways to spend 180 points than a Punisher (unless your list-tailoring towards an army that is vulnerable to it)

Whut?

Pask Punishers are awesome at killing MEQ, horde, MCs and light armour. Against MEQ, horde and MCs their damage output is far better than any of the pie plate Russes, though they are more expensive so ymmv.

If there are a couple of Terminators with storm sheilds than you fire the lasguns first.
As stated before this will kill 2 terminators, and by your argument the storm sheild would be upfront (only way you would reduce the overall wounds from 5 to 3). This means that the plasma guns are able to fire against to regular terminators. The results are the same. And this is from firing at long range.

Add in the fact that there is the possibility of providing FRFSRF to the veteran squads and a close range they will be producing 12 plasma shots and 42 lasgun shots. This is very capable of killing an entire squad of terminators, with or without the 2 storm sheild bullet sponges that you introduced to the situation, in 1 turn.

The Demolisher is great against terminators. Upgraded with lascannon and plasma sponsons, it is killing 4-5 terminators a turn (depending on storm sheilds or not) . More than the punishers. Only costs 220pts vs the Bolter puinshers 260pts.

The executioner with lascannon and plasma sponsons is killing 4 terminators a turn. This is assuming that on average each plasma weapons is hitting 1 terminator each (this is to factor in for scattering). This tank is 245pts vs the bolter punishers 260pts.

Both tanks with these loadouts can handle hordes (to a certain point) and light vehicles and heavy vehicles (although the executioner to a lesser degree). Demolisher turret can handle all targets, hull lascannon for AT and plasma cannons for MEQ/ Light vehicles. Plasma executioner can hanlde hordes by putting out 5 small blast templates. Plasma is good vs MEQ/Light tanks. The hull lascannon is a pinch can be AT.

Punishers are not Anti TEQ. They can kill TEQs but will not do as well as other Specialised tanks will. The punisher will beat any other tank out there at anti Horde, esp is you are specialising your units.

TL;DR
You are trying to shoehorn a tank into doing a role it is not meant for. It will cope, but it will not shine.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Add in the fact that there is the possibility of providing FRFSRF to the veteran squads and a close range they will be producing 12 plasma shots and 42 lasgun shots. This is very capable of killing an entire squad of terminators, with or without the 2 storm sheild bullet sponges that you introduced to the situation, in 1 turn.

FRFSRF only works on lasguns.

I could see the punisher being cool, but I prefer to keep things cheap in my guard. The punisher is pushing beyond what I would like to spend on what it does.

JB_Man wrote:


FRFSRF only works on lasguns.

I know it only works on lasguns.

1 squad of veterans at close range (aka rapid fire range) produces 21 lasgun shots and 6 plasma shots, from 7 lasguns and 3 plasma guns. Therefor 2 squads, such as the one used in the argument, will produce 12 plasma and 42 lasgun shots.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

JB_Man wrote:


FRFSRF only works on lasguns.

I know it only works on lasguns.

1 squad of veterans at close range (aka rapid fire range) produces 21 lasgun shots and 6 plasma shots, from 7 lasguns and 3 plasma guns. Therefor 2 squads, such as the one used in the argument, will produce 12 plasma and 42 lasgun shots.

So I gotta know how often do you account for your guardsmen frying themselves with their own plasma guns? They're not twin-linked and the Guard isn't known for their armor saves. So in the example of two squads firing at close range mathhammer says you should probably be losing a plasma gunner from each squad in one turn of firing (12 shots -> 2 1's -> might save one on a 5+). So right there you're now only getting 4 shots/squad on that turn.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

JB_Man wrote:


FRFSRF only works on lasguns.

I know it only works on lasguns.

1 squad of veterans at close range (aka rapid fire range) produces 21 lasgun shots and 6 plasma shots, from 7 lasguns and 3 plasma guns. Therefor 2 squads, such as the one used in the argument, will produce 12 plasma and 42 lasgun shots.

Where are you getting FRFSRF for Plasmavets?

Do you usually have a CCS that close?

@andystache: Over heating is not relevant to the example as I was proving that the veteran squads were better than the Punisher in ONE round of shooting vs terminators. The Punisher needed 2 rounds of shooting to do the same amount of damage.

@TheCaptain: I personally run my CCS in a command chimera. They tend to follow my veterans around providing orders and extra anti infantry support.

Recently, I've played a few games with the following "combo":
- Ezekyel (DA librarian special character)
- 2-3 bolterboat Punishers in one squadron

Ezekyel gives the Punishers quasi-twin-linked (with the Divination primaris power) and you will have some crazy DPS to unleash. With the minimal Tac squad, the DA allies will cost 235 points... And it is dead effective as long as you can keep the Punishers on the field!

Sir Mammoth wrote:The consensus always is that generally there are much better ways to spend 180 points than a Punisher (unless your list-tailoring towards an army that is vulnerable to it)

It definitely is a a really fun tank for non-competitive games though.

Not really a consensus, since this wasn't really discussed. >>

Griddlelol wrote:

Oh? Who's part of that consensus? You?
I think if you look though many of the above posts you'll see the punisher can do plenty of things well, and it is probably the most versatile of all the LR tanks. This makes it rather good for TAC lists.

I have a better way to spend 180 points than getting a Punisher.

Spending 155 points on a Vulture with a twin-linked Punisher cannon. If you bring it in as part of an allied Elysian army, it's even still Heavy Support!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

I have a better way to spend 180 points than getting a Punisher.

Spending 155 points on a Vulture with a twin-linked Punisher cannon. If you bring it in as part of an allied Elysian army, it's even still Heavy Support!

This is exactly what I've been thinking the whole time I've been reading this thread. You can get a better version of its gun at a lower points cost, and on a flyer no less.

A non-twinlinked punisher cannon just isn't all that good against anything, at least in terms of what its points could buy elsewhere in the codex.

A Vector Dance flyer as well, so its almost as maneuverable as a ground vehicle.

Punishers have a decent advantage from an "ease of use" perspective, although this is more of a "direct fire vs blast" thing. It is much quicker and easier to roll a set of dice a few times than to roll scatter dice and work it out. You don't get parallax with a punisher cannon. This is only worth considering if you have a fair few templates in your army though, as firing six battle cannons can take a while.

So heavy vehicles in 6th always move at combat speed and are treated as remained stationary for the purposes of firing.
So the punisher is always firing all its guns
It can be expensive to load it out either all bolters with stubber or hull las with multimedia sponsons.
But it's alot of firepower every turn on an AV14. Big threat.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Sir Mammoth wrote:
The consensus always is that generally there are much better ways to spend 180 points than a Punisher (unless your list-tailoring towards an army that is vulnerable to it)

Whut?

Pask Punishers are awesome at killing MEQ, horde, MCs and light armour. Against MEQ, horde and MCs their damage output is far better than any of the pie plate Russes, though they are more expensive so ymmv.

^ This. A Paskisher (horrible mangling of two words :p) Is in every one of my "for-fun" lists nowadays and I'm seriously considering making it a mainstay. My local meta is not Terminator heavy, and this thing with BS4 and 29 Str 5 shots is a very nice unit to have. My blue friend Tobias here hit it on the head, I find the damage they do is more reliable than a Leman Russ MBT (ok, not executioner, those things are just too awesome). If you aim the sights down on any non-TEQ unit, they're in trouble.

 Furyou Miko wrote:


I have a better way to spend 180 points than getting a Punisher.

Spending 155 points on a Vulture with a twin-linked Punisher cannon. If you bring it in as part of an allied Elysian army, it's even still Heavy Support!

Considering I don't use Forge World, it's not an option. Obviously, a Vulture is better though, it's a shame that FW is so costly.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:


I have a better way to spend 180 points than getting a Punisher.

Spending 155 points on a Vulture with a twin-linked Punisher cannon. If you bring it in as part of an allied Elysian army, it's even still Heavy Support!

Considering I don't use Forge World, it's not an option. Obviously, a Vulture is better though, it's a shame that FW is so costly.

Why not kitbash/scratchbuild?

 TheCaptain wrote:


Why not kitbash/scratchbuild?

I don't believe I have the skill. The key feature of the model in my opinion is the huge turbine that replaces the troop carrying capacity. I have no idea where to even start making something that looks like that.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


Why not kitbash/scratchbuild?

I don't believe I have the skill. The key feature of the model in my opinion is the huge turbine that replaces the troop carrying capacity. I have no idea where to even start making something that looks like that.

Search for it here on Dakka. I know somebody did it.

Here it is: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294046.page

and another: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420001.page


ender502

There are other ways to do it as well. As long as it looks VTOL enough. This is what I use as a vulture.





I just like rocket pods

 Flinty wrote:
There are other ways to do it as well. As long as it looks VTOL enough. This is what I use as a vulture.





I just like rocket pods

Dang.

That conversion is bangin.

I'm guessing based on the SCII Banshee? If so, spot on.

Good eye, sir

 Flinty wrote:
There are other ways to do it as well. As long as it looks VTOL enough. This is what I use as a vulture.





I just like rocket pods

...

I...

NEED THIS

Sick conversion.
I've never played as imperial guard, but I always have a little "ohhhhh.... crap." moment when i see a couple punishers on the other side of the table with anti-tank sponsons.

They just... they can attack anything and do horrific damage. Other tanks? boom. Hordes? splat. Marines or terminators? Pew pew.

Sorry if my super-analytic mathhammer analysis isn't as rigorous as yours, it's more based on experience, and trial and error.

I havent used a Punisher yet, I was considering one and I might try one.

I have however run a Storm Talon as a "counts as" Vulture and that did its job very well against some necrons.

Oh look, another thread hijacked by Forgeworld evangelism.

However much you guys are getting paid, it's not enough.

 BryllCream wrote:
Oh look, another thread hijacked by Forgeworld evangelism.

Oh look, another thread hijacked by complaining about Forge World.

(Bonus points for finding a way to complain about Forge World even though the "hijack" was mostly over a cool conversion, not a FW model.)

If one person hijacks a thread, and another person points it out, it's not the latter's fault - it's the former.

Regardless it's clearly okay with the mods so i'll keep shtum I guess.

 BryllCream wrote:
Oh look, another thread hijacked by Forgeworld evangelism.

However much you guys are getting paid, it's not enough.

Why is it such a problem that folks on Dakka encourage FW as an option?

It's not like we're saying "Play with FW or you're gaming wrong."

Which is kindof what you're saying, albeit in the opposite direction. You condemn us for our beliefs, while we leave yours alone.

Please don't do that.