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 ChiliPowderKeg wrote:
I've never gotten past the Doom's 3-up invuln with ID weapons

I've never lost Doom to normal shooting or CC. It's always to ID weapons.

Which means I'm over excited when I roll a 1 on the Biomancy table.

Dark Angels, I just hate them...

Phanixis wrote:
Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

Hopefully this new daemons codex will solve the Flamer/Fateweaver gak out there.

I think the 40k rules need a bit of simplifying in general. So many things in the current edition are just sillyness for the sake of sillyness.

Almost everything on that list is the reason I've been getting burnt out on 40k.

It feels less like a game and more like a "whose gimmick is the best" everytime I've played lately.

If the rumors I've been hearing about the upcoming daemons codex are true, I may well quit for a while.

It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

Out of all of those things on the list that I hate the most though, that would have to go to space wolves. They're not as bad around here as they used to be, but when I first started playing, almost everyone at my store played them. They all spammed long fangs, they all spammed rune priests, and the all spammed razorbacks. It wasn't fun to play against whatsoever, and got boring extremely quickly. Space wolves almost made me quit before I even had a 1,000pts worth of IG.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

I haven't found this to be the case. I've been using an army that I consider less than super-competitive for a while now (Space Marines with Tau allies), and I've been doing quite well and having fun games to boot.

TBH none of the listed ones. I haven't faced most of them though, but with poison iron arm is nothing, no psykers to Eldrad whiffs and Heldrake AP3 is wasted on my units. All my guys are in transports, so jaws and Doom are useless, Vendettas I haven't faced so no comment, ATSKNF, just kill the whole unit. Imotekh I was supposed to face a while ago but I wasn't that scared really, as night fighting actually helps me. Most of the others I haven't faced, including Grey Knights nades.

What I truly fear is autocannons and assault cannons. /shudder

Dunno if it counts, but I hate playing against Righteous Zeal... which is pretty much what I have to do every game. RZ used to be an advantage with drawbacks, now it's just a drawback.

ATSKNF is my peeve.

No drawbacks, huge buff, might as well have written 'ignores morale rules.'

MSS is next, I don't like abilities that make you lose control of your own dudes with no drawbacks for the necron himself.

Phanixis wrote:
Fateweaver still irks me to no end. Rerollable 3++, flying, a 12" bubble of rerollable saves, and the ability to use three psychic powers per turn on three separate targets without having to even test for them. Was the author who came up with these rules high when creating the Fateweaver entry?

Alessio wrote Codex: Daemons.

And you do realise that we just got to spend an entire edition being the game's worst army;
- No anti-tank beyond single shot average BS3 24"/S8/ap1. (or else hitting things on 6's, because that's totally viable?!)
- A primarily assault-based army that has to always Deep Strike.
- Having a 33% chance to be screwed over by our own deployment rules.
- Over-costed to outright useless Troops.
- Being forced to put up with a highly popular codex that outright kicks us in the junk repeatedly to the point it has a built-in auto-win button.

Fateweaver was about the only thing making us even playable in 5th. He also costs 333pts to put on the table, making him one of the most expensive characters in the game! (he damn well better be a good buy for that price tag!)
Not to mention, the GK codex even took that one glimer of hope away from us through 15pts Banishers who nullified Fatey's re-rolls... (because the odds weren't quite stacked against us enough it seems. )

Sure Flamers are gross right now. But we've suffered as the game's outright worst army long enough, so give us our barely 8 months of competitive glory god damnit!

< Taken by the void dragon. >

As of the morning of Feb. 21, the "informal" Top 10 Most Hated looks like this:

1. Re-rollable 2+ saves

2. Mindshackle Scarabs

3. The Necron Air Force

4. Jaws of the World Wolf

5. Flamers (Chaos Daemons)

6. Heldrakes (tied)

6. Doom of Ma'lantai (tied)

6. Grey Knights (in general, tied)

9. Grey Knight Grenades

10. Reanimation Protocols -- NEW!!!


Dropped Out - Necrons (in general)

Are people really still upset about Doom of Ma'lantai? Didn't GW FAQ that you get cover saves from it? Besides, at the end of the turn, it's just a zoanthrope. Throw enough str 8 at it and it will die. Similarly, if you play vehicles against a nid army, you have a pretty good advantage unless you're Eldar/Dark Eldar, who still has a significant advantage (Dark Eldar moreso because of Venomspam BS.)

Why is this tied with HueHueDrakes?

 bibblles wrote:
I think the 40k rules need a bit of simplifying in general. So many things in the current edition are just sillyness for the sake of sillyness.

It's more like sillyness due to bad writing, editing and playtesting. You know, the whole QC (Quality control) shebang....

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Almost everything on that list is the reason I've been getting burnt out on 40k.

It feels less like a game and more like a "whose gimmick is the best" everytime I've played lately.

If the rumors I've been hearing about the upcoming daemons codex are true, I may well quit for a while.

It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

Out of all of those things on the list that I hate the most though, that would have to go to space wolves. They're not as bad around here as they used to be, but when I first started playing, almost everyone at my store played them. They all spammed long fangs, they all spammed rune priests, and the all spammed razorbacks. It wasn't fun to play against whatsoever, and got boring extremely quickly. Space wolves almost made me quit before I even had a 1,000pts worth of IG.

That's sad to hear. Hope you stay. There's lots of "gimmicks" but not everyone uses it. I think a lot more players play casually rather than to exploit those "gimmicks". Alas, they do exist and I'd be lying if I tell you that all you have to do is to just avoid them (the more competitive ones). All I ask is that you give them a shot (daemons or whatever) in a game before giving up just after listening to some rumours (or even after reading the new dex).

Painbiro wrote:
TBH none of the listed ones. I haven't faced most of them though, but with poison iron arm is nothing, no psykers to Eldrad whiffs and Heldrake AP3 is wasted on my units. All my guys are in transports, so jaws and Doom are useless, Vendettas I haven't faced so no comment, ATSKNF, just kill the whole unit. Imotekh I was supposed to face a while ago but I wasn't that scared really, as night fighting actually helps me. Most of the others I haven't faced, including Grey Knights nades.

What I truly fear is autocannons and assault cannons. /shudder

Yeah, not all of these "things" are universally hated. Non-psychic armies could really care less about Runes of Warding. Character-less non-combat armies (i.e. Imperial Guards, Tau) aren't really phased by Mindshackle Scarabs nor GK grenades. Heldrakes are more scary to MEQ players than anything else. And who cares about Invisibility when you have weapons that ignore cover. However, these "things" do affect the a large part (or sometimes even the majority) of the 40k world and as such, they are vilified and cursed whenever an opponent has to go up against them. Such is this rock-paper-scissors game that we play. Running marines? Better be concerned about heldrakes. Running tyranids, space wolves or the grey knights? You're going to hate Eldrad and the accursed Runes of Warding. You think being mechanized will protect you against Jaws or the Doom? Think again when you go up against Necron flyer-spam or Tzeentch flamer-screamer-spam.

Even autocannons/assault cannons aren't universally feared (hello green tide and horde armies), though they are feared enough by most of the armies in the 40K world.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Alessio wrote Codex: Daemons.

And you do realise that we just got to spend an entire edition being the game's worst army;
- No anti-tank beyond single shot average BS3 24"/S8/ap1. (or else hitting things on 6's, because that's totally viable?!)
- A primarily assault-based army that has to always Deep Strike.
- Having a 33% chance to be screwed over by our own deployment rules.
- Over-costed to outright useless Troops.
- Being forced to put up with a highly popular codex that outright kicks us in the junk repeatedly to the point it has a built-in auto-win button.

Fateweaver was about the only thing making us even playable in 5th. He also costs 333pts to put on the table, making him one of the most expensive characters in the game! (he damn well better be a good buy for that price tag!)
Not to mention, the GK codex even took that one glimer of hope away from us through 15pts Banishers who nullified Fatey's re-rolls... (because the odds weren't quite stacked against us enough it seems. )

Sure Flamers are gross right now. But we've suffered as the game's outright worst army long enough, so give us our barely 8 months of competitive glory god damnit!

Just to give you some perspective, the previous iteration of the grey knights - the daemonhunters - was possibly the worst or one of the worse codex for many, many years before they finally got updated. I'd say they were over-compensated, but maybe good things come to all those who wait...patiently.

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:
Are people really still upset about Doom of Ma'lantai? Didn't GW FAQ that you get cover saves from it? Besides, at the end of the turn, it's just a zoanthrope. Throw enough str 8 at it and it will die. Similarly, if you play vehicles against a nid army, you have a pretty good advantage unless you're Eldar/Dark Eldar, who still has a significant advantage (Dark Eldar moreso because of Venomspam BS.)

Why is this tied with HueHueDrakes?

Part of it is the fact that people roll an 18, a 17, and a 16 for the leadership tests once in a while.
Even with cover saves that's a lot of wounds. And it assumes you're in cover.
Add in the fact that 1/6 times Doom can have Eternal Warrior...

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:
Are people really still upset about Doom of Ma'lantai? Didn't GW FAQ that you get cover saves from it? Besides, at the end of the turn, it's just a zoanthrope. Throw enough str 8 at it and it will die. Similarly, if you play vehicles against a nid army, you have a pretty good advantage unless you're Eldar/Dark Eldar, who still has a significant advantage (Dark Eldar moreso because of Venomspam BS.)

Why is this tied with HueHueDrakes?

Probably because players nowadays tend to run more foot and less mech. That's just how the meta is currently. Yeah, he can be countered if you know how to play against him, but sometimes you really can't help it (maybe you don't spam S8 or most of your Doom-insta-killing units are dead of locked in assault by the time he comes in from reserves). I currently run the Doom and he appears to be much more effective in this edition. He's even determined the outcome of some of the games!

@JY2: Keep in mind though, the Grey Knights under the old Daemonhunters codex were never, ever intended to be a 'pure knight' stand alone army. GW's intention was that you would *always* include elements from the rest of the codex and/or the built-in allies system.

So honestly, I have no sympathy for GK's players who refused to take more than just their overly shiny super marines. They made a self-imposed choice to limit their unit selection in the exact same way that any other heavily themed forced, and should have understood that going in.
For example, you don't hear Deathwing players whine that they can only field 15-20 models while also lacking serious anti-tank. They accept that drawback because they understand that playing pure Deathwing means ignoring 2/3rds of the DA codex!

What the Grey Knight codex has done to every single Daemon player on the other hand is criminal.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Experiment 626 wrote:

What the Grey Knight codex has done to every single Daemon player on the other hand is criminal.

It's not worse than list tailoring heavily against any other army, really. The fact that you think Banishers, who no sane person ever takes when not list tailoring (and even then, almost no one takes them) is cheese is a bit silly TBH.

Yeah, Banishers aren't really that bad. Null Zone, on the other hand, should maybe be on the list... and I say that as a Space Marine player! Null Zone's effects are simply too much for some armies to deal with.

I voted Imhotek, primarily because my group plays a lot of big games, and when you get over 2000pts, he just becomes ridiculous. Constant night fighting means little happens, except your gak gets lightning'd with no cover saves, and it takes forever to resolve. I had one guy insist on using him in an Apoc game. Fething slowed.

In my opinion, he's the most broken of a long line of broken Wardian characters. I hated draigo when I first started playing, but learned over time he's just not that big a deal compared to lightning and night fighting everywhere, always, uncounterable.

I'd put flamers second, just deep strike in, and everything around them dies. There's no counter, save for the other guy rolling poorly, and lacks any kind of skill or talent to use, much like imhotek. At least draigowing, even in the heydeys of its power, required some basic skill to use right.

everything after that seems trivial, either rarely comming up or being too situational to really annoy me.

 Kingsley wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's just not much fun when I can look at my list and my opponent's list and immediately know who's going to win the match. Players with "good codexes" have to intentionally hold their lists back or get called for cheese (and they'll often get called cheesy even if their list is tame) and people with weaker codexes are limited to a few select builds to stay competitive, that are usually no fun to play against.

I haven't found this to be the case. I've been using an army that I consider less than super-competitive for a while now (Space Marines with Tau allies), and I've been doing quite well and having fun games to boot.

Where I'm at it can be. Not always, but it happens. I should've been more clear about that. It's mostly the situations where you look at the other guy's list and see something like max screamers/flamers or something.

I think I just need a break from it for a bit. I know lots of guys get that way at times.

If you guys seriously don't get bugged by most of the things on that list though you're a bigger man than me. Maybe not to the level of "I really need to find a new game" bothered, but if you don't at least raise your eyebrow at some of the stuff you see you must be pretty jaded.

I think the most annoying unit/special rule is the one you don't see coming. For instance, my vote goes to Epidemius and his fethin' tally, I played a game where I didn't know how it worked because my opponent didn't explain it that well...I felt stupid for murdering his cultists like that afterwards. The worst part was that I was trying out dual stormravens (I know, I know), and could have easily used them to blow him away from his little corner. But by the time I realized this and had killed him, his tally-maxed plague marine allies had killed almost all my terminators. Lesson learned, but I hate Epidemius.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Is it just me or are 80% of the grievances here attributable to a single Author?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

As already touched upon, most of these gimmicky pains in the backside are relatively recent. The Jaws of the World Wolf BS started a continuing trend of sucking the sense and fun out 40K. And people actually think the game is getting better?

As a necron player - the most annoying thing in 40k to play against are PEOPLE WHO WHINE ABOUT NECRONS.

Seriously ..... Enough already. The dex is here, it's popular, it's better then yours, it's not going away ..... Deal with it.

Your argument just dissintergrated in the first 4 words. It shows you are biased and your judgement is impeeded...

But you cannot say that necrons arn't overpowered. Mindshackle scarabs is nothing short of cheating in my store and necron air is despisesed by all save the imperial air chalalry. In short, necrons smell.

Although things arn't looking good for my 2++ re-rollable halie-star at the moment...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Your argument just dissintergrated in the first 4 words. It shows you are biased and your judgement is impeeded...

But you cannot say that necrons arn't overpowered. Mindshackle scarabs is nothing short of cheating in my store and necron air is despisesed by all save the imperial air chalalry. In short, necrons smell.

Although things arn't looking good for my 2++ re-rollable halie-star at the moment...

2++ rerollable and JoTWW have been around forever. They aren't all that game breaking, just annoying.

Necron Flying Bakery, on the other hand...