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What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

The spawned Knights have no different rules from the purchased Knights.
Meaning he becomes a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as the "sarge".

Is mordrak always solo?

If not he can be joined by IC's.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is mordrak always solo?

If not he can be joined by IC's.

Right, exactly like a Hive Tyrant.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is mordrak always solo?

If not he can be joined by IC's.

Right, exactly like a Hive Tyrant.

Exactly like the HT yes.

 Mesphilhiem wrote:
Quick question
Mordrak and his ghost knights form a ghost knight unit can a Libby with teleporting homer join his unit and deepstrike together turn one and thus not scatter?

I asking due to a match I faced against grey knights
Mordrak 5 ghost knights and a Libby deepstriked as one unit thus the libby did not scatter turn one due to mordraks rule
turn two summons 2 squads of terminators and one unit of paladins
turn three tabled

Reading the grey knight codex it seems ok but maybe a precise ruling could be provided? Since fluff wise i assumed mordrak only was with his ghost knights and a IC could not join them?

By the timing of events, I'm guessing the three squads of TDA arrived from reserves rather than the power "The Summoning". If this is the case, then yes, Mordrak and his Ghosts can be joined by a Librarian with a Teleport Homer for a turn 1, no-scatter deep strike followed by the no-scatter arrival of TDA units from reserve on turn 2. Personally, I've been using this tactic since the codex came out.

The mechanics of what occurred are as follows:

Mordrak is never a single mode unit, as he has the ability to spawn Ghost Knights regardless of whether or not Ghost Knights were purchased beforehand. As such, Mordrak may always be joined by Independent Characters like the GK Librarian. Mordrak's special rule First to the Fray allows him and any unit he accompanies that deep strike to arrive on turn 1 without scatter, which can be used to transport an IC (in this case a Librarian) along him and any Ghost Knights Mordrak has with him at the beginning on the game.

If Mordrak survives and the Librarian survive turn 1, Mordrak can use his psychic power Psychic Communion to modify the reserve rolls for any of the remain reserved units, such as the two squads and GKT and the squad of Paladins, allowing for a turn 2 arrival of all three units. The Librarian, having been on the table previous to turn 2, may be used by the arriving TDA units for a no-scatter deep strike if placed within 6" of the Librarian.

By "getting tabled", I'll assume Mordrak and company's arrival was in a spot that threw off the OP's strategy, while the arrival of reinforcements proved to be too much to deal with allowing for a massacre of the OP's army. it’s a tactic that I like to call "Shock and Awe". Really, a Ghostwing player can only get this to go off as described on an unprepared opponent, as anyone expecting the tactic will choose to go first (if they can), and annihilate Mordrak's squad before turn 1 is completed, at which point they will have tabled the Ghostwing. kind of a Rock=Paper-Scissors sort of thing.

On the other hand, if the Librarian did indeed use to The Summoning to move three units to him with the Teleport Homer preventing scatter, then the OP’s opponent cheated, since the Librarian cannot manifest the same power more than once per turn (BRB, pg 67) even if the Librarian is Mastery Level 3 (able to manifest up to three powers per player turn). It is still debatable as to whether or not a Teleport Homer would affect the arriving TDA as the TDA are arriving via deep strike and are on the list of units that may benefit from the Homer; unfortunately, few people agree on being “summoned” counting as “teleportation”.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Mordrak is never a single mode unit, as he has the ability to spawn Ghost Knights regardless of whether or not Ghost Knights were purchased beforehand.

So you can show me where in the codex the unit named Mordrak has the option to take more than 1 model? Mordrak is not a single model unit in the same way a Hie tyrant is. They are both bought as a single model but can be joined to a specific unit.

Happyjew please show me the entry for the Mordrak + Ghostknights unit that is separate to the Mordrak unit. Please tell me the what FoC slot it is purchased from.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Happyjew please show me the entry for the Mordrak + Ghostknights unit that is separate to the Mordrak unit. Please tell me the what FoC slot it is purchased from.

You cannot take Ghost Knights without taking Mordrak. you can take Mordrak without taking Ghost Knights. It is exactly the same as a Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard. One unlocks the other.

That would be true if the ghost knights had their own separate entry and you could have a unit not containing Mordrak. You know love the Tyrant Guard have and can...

Ghostknights are an upgrade to the Mordrak unit, we know this as they are listed as such.

 FlingitNow wrote:
That would be true if the ghost knights had their own separate entry and you could have a unit not containing Mordrak. You know love the Tyrant Guard have and can...

Ghostknights are an upgrade to the Mordrak unit, we know this as they are listed as such.

You have that backwards, Mordrak is an upgrade character for the Ghost Knights.

 FlingitNow wrote:
That would be true if the ghost knights had their own separate entry and you could have a unit not containing Mordrak. You know love the Tyrant Guard have and can...

Ghostknights are an upgrade to the Mordrak unit, we know this as they are listed as such.

Page 82 C:GK gives them an army list entry exactly like the Tyrant Guard. And Tyrant Guard are listed as an upgrade on Hive Tyrants.

It's like they're exactly the same thing...

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?


the tyranid comparison is very flawed, and no they are not identical, ghost knights appear under mordraks unit as an upgrade to it,

tyrant guard are a unit you can take on its own,

you CAN take a unit of tyrant guard, with no tyrant,

you can NOT take any ghost knights, without mordrak,

Don't the Ghost knights HAVE to be deployed with Mordrak?

Whereas the Tyrant Guard don't have to be deployed with the HT?

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

 Happyjew wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

yes, you can buy ghost knight models for mordrak at 4opts a piece

sometimes mordrak is a single unit model,

sometimes not,

it has to ALWAYS be a single model to be ineligable for IC's to join (also vehicles and mostrous creatures are NAMEd specifically as non joinable, so that further invalidates the tyranid comparison)

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What is the unit composition of the unit named Mordrak?

what is the composition of the unit called paladins?

1 paladin

so you are saying IC's cannot join paladin squads?

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

yes, you can buy ghost knight models for mordrak at 4opts a piece

And they are part of the Mordrak unit? No. They are part of the Ghost Knight unit.

actually they are ONE unit, according to GK codex pg 50

"mordrak and the ghost knights form a unit, with mordrak acting as an upgrade character"



that he is even able to "revert" back to being a single model unit means he is not "always" a single model unit,

the requirement to be ineligible for IC's to join is that it must "ALWAYS" consist of a single model, not sometimes

Which would make Mordrak part of the Ghost Knight squad, not the other way around.

I'm not arguing that Mordrak is or isn't always a single model unit.
I'm arguing that there isn't a difference between Mordrak and a Hive Tyrant. As long as you treat them consistently everything is fine.

A Prime cannot join a HT because the HT is not an IC and while he can join another unit (Tyrant Guard), his unit never consists of more than one model.

The question of whether or not a Libby can join a solo Mordrak is a little more cloudy because where the Shieldwall language specifies that the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, Ghostly Bodyguard states that "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit". This seems to indicate that they form a new "Mordrak and friends" unit as opposed to him simply joining the Ghost Knights or the Ghost Knits joining his unit. However, later on in the rule, they continually refer to it as "Mordrak's unit" and say he reverts back to being a single model unit if all the ghost knight'as are killed...which muddies the picture of what's really going on.

If Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form an altogether new unit - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If Mordrak join the Ghost Knights - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If the Ghost Knights join Mordrak - then his unit does not always consist of a single model, and the libby may join a solo Mordrak.

Other than the fact that they keep using the language "Mordrak's unit" (which is probably done for ease of reading), I see no indication that the Knights join Mordrak, and most likely a new unit altogether is formed.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
A Prime cannot join a HT because the HT is not an IC and while he can join another unit (Tyrant Guard), his unit never consists of more than one model.

The question of whether or not a Libby can join a solo Mordrak is a little more cloudy because where the Shieldwall language specifies that the HT joins the Tyrant Guard, Ghostly Bodyguard states that "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit". This seems to indicate that they form a new "Mordrak and friends" unit as opposed to him simply joining the Ghost Knights or the Ghost Knits joining his unit. However, later on in the rule, they continually refer to it as "Mordrak's unit" and say he reverts back to being a single model unit if all the ghost knight'as are killed...which muddies the picture of what's really going on.

If Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form an altogether new unit - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If Mordrak join the Ghost Knights - a libby may not join a solo Mordrak.

If the Ghost Knights join Mordrak - then his unit does not always consist of a single model, and the libby may join a solo Mordrak.

Other than the fact that they keep using the language "Mordrak's unit" (which is probably done for ease of reading), I see no indication that the Knights join Mordrak, and most likely a new unit altogether is formed.

Mordrak's unit composition consists of Mordrak. Nothing else. There is no option to add more models to the unit.

Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

 Happyjew wrote:


Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

Except, that's not what it says. You buy Mordrak, you buy a unit of Ghost Knights, and they "form a unit" in which Mordrak is an upgrade character. At no point does it specify that Mordrak joins the Knights (although I agree that that is the intention).

An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights. Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character...

Obviously Mordrak is not an upgrade for the Mordrak unit, and I don't see any options to add Ghost Knights to the Mordrak unit. I do see a Ghost Knight unit in the Army List.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

Except, that's not what it says. You buy Mordrak, you buy a unit of Ghost Knights, and they "form a unit" in which Mordrak is an upgrade character. At no point does it specify that Mordrak joins the Knights (although I agree that that is the intention).

Since they form a unit it's either a unit of Mordrak where Mordrak is an upgrade character, or a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as an upgrade character. You can't have 2 separate units "form a unit" and still be separate.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Ghost Knights (which are unlocked by Mordrak) consist of 5 Ghost Knights and Mordrak is an upgrade character for that unit.

Except, that's not what it says. You buy Mordrak, you buy a unit of Ghost Knights, and they "form a unit" in which Mordrak is an upgrade character. At no point does it specify that Mordrak joins the Knights (although I agree that that is the intention).

Since they form a unit it's either a unit of Mordrak where Mordrak is an upgrade character, or a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as an upgrade character. You can't have 2 separate units "form a unit" and still be separate.

With the exception to remaining separate units, that's pretty much what it is telling you to do. By saying they form a unit, it means that the "Mordrak unit" ceases to exist, as well as the "Ghost Knight" unit ceases to exist. They are both replaced by an unnamed unit consisting of Ghost Knights and Mordrak (as an upgrade character). They should have said that Mordrak joins the Ghost Knights and becomes an upgrade character, but they didn't.

... Which as far as this discussion goes is an irrelevant distinction.

Is the unit Mordrak? If not, Mordrak is still a unit that only ever exists as a single model.

Absolutely agree...which I mentioned earlier. My responses were more in response to the whole "he's just like a hive tyrant" thing. Overall the end result is the same, but they actual mechanics are quite different (and far more convoluted).

The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule for IC's say "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot... join units that always consist of a single model" P. 39

Mordrak is not always in a unit that consists of a single model, therefore IC's can join him.

Mordrak (the unit) is a unit that always consists of 1 model. Mordrak (the model) does not always exist within a unit that only consists of 1 model.