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I was just wondering as to whether there is a general feeling the Astartes have for the Commisariat. Is it positive or negative? Is there any fluff of long standing cooperation between chapters of space Marines and Commisars?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/21 01:32:38


 
   
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They belong to entirely separate fields of service, and don't have much interaction with one another. As SM are not part of the Imperial Guard, a Commissar has no authority over them. As a Commissar is not a Chapter-serf, he is not particularly beholden to a Space Marine (though the fact that a Space Marine is the grandson of the God-Emperor, and has been trained for, and fighting, wars since the time of a Commissar's great-grandfather, may lend his words a lot of weight).

It's also really going to depend on the Chapter of the given Space Marine.

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I would assume that, in general, they should get along well.

Commissars are all about duty.
Space Marines (in general) are all about duty.
Both have been thoroughly indoctrinated in their respective youths, and a Commissar should prove to be a very efficient "brother at arms" in that he or she gets the Guardsmen to do what must be done, all in the Emperor's name.

Of course some Chapters may just dislike humans on principle and would direct these feelings against both the Commissars and the troopers he or she watches over, and some very few "special" Chapters who don't take their task too seriously may think Commissars are dicks who need to loosen up.
   
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they will be able to have an input in talks, however they are still 'only human' and so they are generally treated much the same

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So if there was an allied action occuring a normal Space Marine grunt and an Imperial Guard Commisar would be on equal footing? Neither would have the authority to give orders to the other?
   
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In those regards, technically yes. Although, I have a strong feeling that the Space Marine would take control of the situation. Even though they may be "equal" in footing, the Commissar is much more likely to follow orders from a Marine than a Marine to follow orders from a Commissar.

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Unless your name is Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt, a Commissar has no field rank. They're morale officers, there to enforce the orders of the actual command structure of the IG officers of the unit and, if need be, remove those officers from command should they prove incompetent, cowardly or otherwise unfit for duty. However, without an attached military rank (like Colonel), a Commissar has no actual field rank, and thus has no jurisdiction over Space Marines in any event.

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Does this apply to Lord Commisars as well? Or does the "Lord" constitute a military rank? I'm a bit fuzzy with Guard Ranks. I do know of Lord Generals, but I don't know if "Lord" is just an honorific title or an actual rank.
   
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Gaunt is just the most famous commisar with a dual rank, there are probably a few million of them kicking round ( considering that there are hundreds of billions of guard), the 4th guard book elaborated on it I believe
   
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 Psienesis wrote:
Unless your name is Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt, a Commissar has no field rank. They're morale officers, there to enforce the orders of the actual command structure of the IG officers of the unit and, if need be, remove those officers from command should they prove incompetent, cowardly or otherwise unfit for duty. However, without an attached military rank (like Colonel), a Commissar has no actual field rank, and thus has no jurisdiction over Space Marines in any event.


This was technically the case with the Soviets as well, Commissars were "political and morale advisers". They turned out to be very potent military advisers as well, since many leaders asked them what to do so that they wouldn't piss off the government. I feel like a Commissar in 40k, while not a military leader, would still have quite a say in military actions

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My impression of the differance between the Guard and Astartes, is unless a guard officer has been specifically placed over or in command of a marine force then the commisars and officers would make "requests " of the Astartes, in the same manner as the chapters respond to threats at their own descresion.
The Marines would and could likely make their own requests of the IG, or they may even be considered a command.
After all the commisars and officers are only human.

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I think most of the time a Space Marine wouldn't even notice the commissar or the IG were there.

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 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
My impression of the differance between the Guard and Astartes, is unless a guard officer has been specifically placed over or in command of a marine force then the commisars and officers would make "requests " of the Astartes, in the same manner as the chapters respond to threats at their own descresion.
Indeed - since the Horus Heresy, the Imperium likes to divide its military assets into different sections where no single organisation can control the other.

"Divided we stand" and all.

Exceptions can of course take place, be it because either the Commissar or the Marine voluntarily follows the advice or suggestions of the other, or where an order from Terra goes out that officially authorises one of them to take command of the situation via the Warmaster option. The most famous example of a Commissar having command over Astartes is probably Yarrick on Armageddon.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/21 03:04:36


 
   
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Chapters may just dislike humans on principle

Aren't the astartes supposed to fighting for mankind?

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ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Chapters may just dislike humans on principle

Aren't the astartes supposed to fighting for mankind?


Yes they do, they just do it their own way.

Marine chapters are almost like ancient knightly orders, with their own ranks, structures , methods and goals, the lords of Terra do not really command the chapters as they make requests of them, so some chapters respond promptly some don't.

They stand as a force apart.

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Ultimately, there's a fine but important distinction between Mankind as a whole and lowly human individuals.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:the lords of Terra do not really command the chapters as they make requests of them, so some chapters respond promptly some don't
It's a bit more complicated, I think. The Senatorum, in its position as the interpreters of the Emperor's will, officially is in the position to issue orders - just like the Inquisition, in its position as the Emperor's chief secret police, officially is in the position to requisition Astartes forces, investigate, and if need be purge them. However, due to the complicated web of politics and mutually manipulating influences that is the Imperium of Man, as well as by sheer tradition and a matter of pride, the Chapters are fiercely independent and quite willing to stretch the patience and willingness of Imperial authorities, knowing full well that the Imperium can ill afford to lose the loyalty of an entire Chapter as well as the worlds it protects. It does not prevent the Imperium from being quite willing to destroy an entire Chapter if a suitably influential individual or group of persons decides it is necessary - it merely creates a certain "space of uncertainty" where Marine Chapters can get away with delaying responses or flat out refusing to react at all. The Imperium's response depends a lot on what results out of the Chapter's conduct (for example, one of the Battle Narratives in the 3E WH Codex was about the Inquisition resorting to arrest a Chapter Master because his refusal to react to a request for assistance resulted in an Imperial world being lost to enemy forces).

Basically, I agree with what you said for that's the day-to-day realism, but it's a bit more complicated than just "the Space Marines don't have to listen to what X tells them".
   
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 gpfunk wrote:
Does this apply to Lord Commisars as well? Or does the "Lord" constitute a military rank? I'm a bit fuzzy with Guard Ranks. I do know of Lord Generals, but I don't know if "Lord" is just an honorific title or an actual rank.


That I don't know, however, Krieg has something called Commissar-General, according to the lexicanum, they overrank the Commissar Lords, make that of what you will.

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A commissar is just another imperial authority figure. One who has authority over other members of the IG, even a General is not above the authority of a Commissar. They are similar to the Inquisition is a few respects.


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From some of the fluff i have read," Lord Commissar " is just an honorific relating to length of service in the commissariat.

Commissars holding dual-rank ( such as gaunt ) would be placed higher up the chain of command.And able to take / ignore / tweak advice given from a commissar.

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In The Emperor's Finest by Sandy Mitchell, Ciaphas Cain is assigned to the Reclaimers as a commissarial liason. Unlike many of his assignments, he spends most of his time with them nodding and smiling, although he does do some advising as well. This book is probably the only one in which a commissar interacts extensively with Space Marines, certainly the only one I know of.

Ciaphas Cain mentions several times that commissars are outside of the chain of command. At the same time, the commissars we see in the fiction are given broad leniency in the application of their powers, and in several cases, their role as "advisor" has really meant "leader," while other times they seem to take a back seat. I think it's very situational when it comes to commissars.

Ciaphas Cain gets along rather amiably with the Space Marines he meets, for what that's worth. Haven't read any of the Gaunts Ghosts novels. Do they ever run into Astartes? That might be another place to check. I'd be willing to bet that a plan of action laid out by, say, Yarrick, would carry a lot of weight with a Space Marine.

I think it's fair to say that any commissar that a Space Marine would be willing to listen to an order from is probably not the kind of person who is going to issue a direct order to Space Marines. Instead, they would probably give "advice" or "suggestions" that the marines in question would quite possibly give a great deal of credence to.

In any event, I hope that helps.

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Pedro Kantor wrote:
From some of the fluff i have read," Lord Commissar " is just an honorific relating to length of service in the commissariat.

Commissars holding dual-rank ( such as gaunt ) would be placed higher up the chain of command.And able to take / ignore / tweak advice given from a commissar.


Lord is an actual rank. And Gaunt simply occupied a dual officer position. It wouldn't give him greater authority over a commissar of equal rank IIRC(other than having his own regiment)

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The difference between a Lord Commissar, a Commissar-General and a Commissar is their rank within the Commissariat.

In other words a Lord Commissar would hold rank within the Commissariat over a Commissar, who would then hold rank and can give orders to Commissar Cadets or juniors. They aren't Guard-officer ranks, it's just a rank within their organization.

Also, based on what I know, and what I've read in Black Library books,a Space Marine is likely to look with less disdain upon a Commissar based on how he carries himself in battle, but the examples I have are pretty much all special cases, so I can't say for certain. If I understand correctly, a Chapter can take command of a given warzone, and can requisition Guard troops for their purposes (if they aren't the ones answering the call. Between their enormous ranks and their centuries of experience, I imagine most commanders defer to them in general, depending on the Chapter) and a Commissar or other officer is assigned as liaison.

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Some fluff from GW's old 40k Compendium:

"The Commissar-General is the senior Commissar of the regiment, with the longest service and most extensive campaign experience. He assigns Commissars to Imperial Guard officers according to his judgement of the battlefield situation or the character of the Imperial Guard officers in question. Cadet Commissars are allocated to Commissar Training Squads by the Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard regiment. [...]"

And perhaps also interesting, since we're at it:

"It is the duty of the Commissars in the Imperial Guard to maintain the highest standards of discipline and inspire the troops by their own example. They have the power of absolution in order to restore the morale of the troops at critical moments on the battlefield. Commissars are both feared and respected. They do not often need to exercise their powers, as their presence among the troops is enough to instil devotion and confidence.

It is important that Commissars remain aloof from ordinary troops in the Imperial Guard. Commissars need to exercise authority over ordinary officers, often in front of the officer's own unit. The Commissar must be seen as representative of the Emperor and thus a superior authority to any officer. Furthermore, a Commissar is required to deal with troops from many different tribal and racial origins, and so cannot be associated with any particular group himself. Consequently, the origins and recruitment of Commissars is of vital importance to their efficient exercise of discipline.

Devotion to the Imperial cause, sound judgement, unshakeable resolve and honour are the qualities required in a Commissar. Personnel selected to become Cadet Commissars are drawn from schools run by Missionaries of the Ministorum. There are many such schools throughout the Imperium, known as Schola Progenium. Here, orphans of Imperial Officials who gave their lives in the service of the Emperor are educated by the Missionaries. They soon learn to regard the Emperor as their spiritual father and build a strong personal devotion to the Imperial cause. Their sole ambition is to serve the Imperium and Humanity in some way, and the special qualities of their education make them well suited for service in the Imperial Guard or the Inquisition as Cadet Commissars."
   
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ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Chapters may just dislike humans on principle

Aren't the astartes supposed to fighting for mankind?


Not quite, from what I have read. Astartes fight for the Emperor, not always for mankind. If the Emperor wills it, they will do it. Even if it involves the deaths of billions of human beings. Although, there are chapters that are protective of humans (like the Salamanders)

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 washout77 wrote:
ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Chapters may just dislike humans on principle

Aren't the astartes supposed to fighting for mankind?


Not quite, from what I have read. Astartes fight for the Emperor, not always for mankind. If the Emperor wills it, they will do it. Even if it involves the deaths of billions of human beings. Although, there are chapters that are protective of humans (like the Salamanders)


They do fight for humanity, as a whole. If billions must be sacrificed to save trillions than so be it.

Exterminating a planet of 5 billion people is worth the price if it saves a sector of a trillion from falling to chaos.

Its all about numbers.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
 washout77 wrote:
ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Chapters may just dislike humans on principle

Aren't the astartes supposed to fighting for mankind?


Not quite, from what I have read. Astartes fight for the Emperor, not always for mankind. If the Emperor wills it, they will do it. Even if it involves the deaths of billions of human beings. Although, there are chapters that are protective of humans (like the Salamanders)


They do fight for humanity, as a whole. If billions must be sacrificed to save trillions than so be it.

Exterminating a planet of 5 billion people is worth the price if it saves a sector of a trillion from falling to chaos.

Its all about numbers.


Fair enough. There have been plenty of stories involving Space Marines doing their own thing, then leaving the battle dooming the Guard and Civilians on the planet to certain death however (with no real reason. Usually it's because the planet has a chapter relic or something important on it. They save that, then leave).

Also, every chapter is different really. You have chapters that go out of their way to save people (chapters like the Salamanders and Space Wolves spring to mind) and you also have chapters that honestly couldn't care less about anything less than themselves (Ala the Marines Malevolent). The Emperor's Will is really the only thing that all chapters can 100% agree on, and even that is contested between some of the more divergent ones.

To sum it up, if a Chapter is in a position to help a large civilian population they usually will. But, few chapters will go out of their way to save civilians unless it has some importance to them or the Emperor.

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Grimaldus comments in Helsreach that Yarrick, purely by rank, shouldn't hold much sway with the Astartes at the Third War for Armageddon. That he does is a testament to his actions in the earlier war, not to the fact that he's a Commissar. This leads me to think that even Lord Commissars generally don't have any formal influence over the Astartes.

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Astartes would get along fine with Commissars I imagine. Astartes would look down upon offenses Commissars punish, such as cowardice, desertion, heresy, and so on.

The Astartes probably would get along the worst with Ecclesiarchy priests that accompany IG Regiments.

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We would have to look at Ciaphias Cains experiences aboard a spacemarine strike cruiser, as i believe its the most comprehensive work on the interaction between the to. While the Commissar has no real power over the astartes (like the soraritas and the mechanicus) there advice is generaly accepted. Unlike the commissar's themselves. I doubt that they would be overly friendly (but Cain seems to make a ''friend'' of a tech marine while aboard) but would be polite and formal. The chapter traditions would be kept secret like always and they wouldn't throw open there doors to there special places (training area's and chaples, i dont think space marines have anywhere else ) But after Cain made his impression, he was granted use of a training hall, he found this as a great honour, not usually bestowed.

So in the end, i'd say it would be personal standing. If it was some emperor bothering *blam* happy commissar who tryed to excercute a marine for retreat (otherwise know as tactics) i doubt it would end well for the commissar at all! But i think if the commissar was adept at his job he would be as accepted as anyoutsider could be. They are trusted advisors for a reason, not just because they can shoot you if you dont listen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We would have to look at Ciaphias Cains experiences aboard a spacemarine strike cruiser, as i believe its the most comprehensive work on the interaction between the to. While the Commissar has no real power over the astartes (like the soraritas and the mechanicus) there advice is generaly accepted. Unlike the commissar's themselves. I doubt that they would be overly friendly (but Cain seems to make a ''friend'' of a tech marine while aboard) but would be polite and formal. The chapter traditions would be kept secret like always and they wouldn't throw open there doors to there special places (training area's and chaples, i dont think space marines have anywhere else ) But after Cain made his impression, he was granted use of a training hall, he found this as a great honour, not usually bestowed.

So in the end, i'd say it would be personal standing. If it was some emperor bothering *blam* happy commissar who tryed to excercute a marine for retreat (otherwise know as tactics) i doubt it would end well for the commissar at all! But i think if the commissar was adept at his job he would be as accepted as anyoutsider could be. They are trusted advisors for a reason, not just because they can shoot you if you dont listen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/21 20:51:42


 
   
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I've been looking forward to getting into the Ciaphais Cain novels, this will be just another reason to buy 'em. Where could I find the order of the stories chronologically?

I think earlier someone asked if Gaunt had any experience with Space Marines in the novels bearing his name. In the latest, Salvation's Reach, he actually does meet with three individual Space Marines who have been allocated to help with the assault. They view him with a sort of deferential respect. They see him as generally competent and only make mild changes to his tactics and general battle plan. Then again, Abnett's Marines seem to be a bit more interested in the Ghosts than an average marine would. Far more human than the norm.

Didn't really have anything to do with his rank though. Way it was written it was a favor on the behalf of the individual chapters rather than chain of command and whatnot.
   
 
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