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 jifel wrote:
I admit I tried that once. It might've worked too if he hadn't made 9 of 10 3++s when my Dakkaflyrant lit them up...

Still, I'll have to try again. I really need more experience against Wraithwall crons, these Batreps are great for me, so thanks jy2! Every time I see cronz its always either a fun list with no flyers, or an all flyer list, which is just a boring game.

You're welcome.

Not much you can really do when the cron player is making saves like that. I remember I played against Reecius' Bjorn-missile wolves (with about 26 missile shots + some lascannons!) back in 5th with my wraithwing. If I wasn't making good saves, his army should have demolished mine but instead, my crons ended up dominating his wolves.

I don't normally run my wraithwing crons anymore except by request or if I am practicing for a tournament. I was actually going to run my fun-crons (no spam at all in that list!) but my opponent requested that I use my competitive, tournament build against him. Anyways, even though he lost, I think he learned some valuable lessons in our matchup.

I like the war walkers. They are fragile, but when you have the beastpack and seer council coming at you, most people would ignore the scatter walkers. As a matter of fact, I recommended to him to get more walkers and 1 more unit of GJB. Junk the Aegis Line, take out a couple of warlocks and destructors and then try to fit in 1 more unit of GJB's and 1-2 scatter walkers. I think he definitely is going to add another unit of GJB's though I'm not quite sure what he's going to do about the walkers.

Like I said, this game is going to be a wake-up call to my opponent, who has never played against necron flyers before. He really didn't know what to expect, especially when he has to play against a necron scythe-army run by a very good general. But then again, it's better to lose right now against a good necron list and gain some invaluable experience than to lose to them for the first time in the BAO tournament.

I run a similar list, but take 2 Wraithlords and a Talos. I tried War Walkers and just didn't like them--they die to a stiff breeze. I do think that smart opponents will shoot them, especially if the Seers are Fortuned and the Beastpack has invisibility.

I do agree that another unit of GJB is essential.

 jifel wrote:

Good to know! My only match up against Wraithcrons in 6th was foiled by bad dice and being a Kill Point game, but since I have a GT coming up and I know there are at least several Necron players going, I figured I need to know what I'm doing for next time... I suppose my game plan now is just enfeeble them and hope the saves roll average! Plus, I think I'd enjoy it more if it's an objective game!

Just beware of the scythes. You need to have some mobility in your army and beware of getting boxed in by those wraiths (a tactic I call Positional Dominance). Janthkin was kicking my arse but I won because we were fighting primarily in his deployment zone. Then on T5, I just zoomed my flyers onto the objectives and the game ended, thus giving me the win.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that Necrons, more than anything, are masters of the Movement phase. In an objectives-based game, they don't beat you by killing you (although they certainly could). Rather, they are like the dark eldar of last edition. They throw a lot of shiny objects at you (wraiths, annihilation barges), get you out of position with regards to the objectives, and then take those objectives at the last turn when you just can't react in time. That was how I was able to win games even when my crons were getting thoroughly schooled.

 JGrand wrote:

I run a similar list, but take 2 Wraithlords and a Talos. I tried War Walkers and just didn't like them--they die to a stiff breeze. I do think that smart opponents will shoot them, especially if the Seers are Fortuned and the Beastpack has invisibility.

I do agree that another unit of GJB is essential.

I suppose tough MC's can work. However, what I envision is a more balanced eldar list. His greatest weakness is his lack of shooting. The war walkers bring some balance into his list. Then again, I probably don't have the experience that you have as I am not an eldar player. I like them for the same reasons why I switched over the Swarmlord in my tyranid army for a second flyrant. One advantage that the war walkers do bring to the army is immediate pressure from Turn 1. Eldar MC's won't really be a factor until later in the game. War walkers are a factor the moment they are deployed on T1.

Of course, nothing beat experience. That is also one of the reasons why I feel that storm talons are more dangerous and better than vendettas or stormravens. In my experience, they always tend to do better against my armies than the other flyers do.

The problem with the War Walkers is that it is almost always a bad idea to shoot at the Fortuned Seers (especially if they get Invis) so opponents will have to focus fire on the secondary elements and War Walkers are both pricey and fragile. Necrons have an especially easy time taking them out because of both Barges (who they cannot damage) and Flyers (who they are inefficient against). Wraithlord T8 makes them very, very difficult to kill with mid-strength fire and they are immune to most anti-infantry firepower (which is taken in spades), the Walkers will even die to Str.4 shooting now... The opponent also should invest more points into troops. His are weak and any army containing 2+ Heldrakes should have no problem beating him by killing all of his troops and feeding throwaway units to the council.

The Eldar/DE list seems pretty good but he is investing way too many points into two units. Needs better support elements and a better base of troops

Yea I don't think his list is all that strong to be honest, it has way to many hard counters. The most obvious being fliers which can kill his support units easily. Seer councils are a pain until you realizes that for their cost, the easiest solution is ignoring them. If he wants to redeploy 48" like you mentioned he will be leaving his hit and run toy behind which ruins the unit. It's incredibly hard for his two units to recoup their investments. That said all his other units are insanely delicate which is why is think his list is kind of weak, it literally makes target priority easy for the opponent. Nob bikers are better in my opinion because they score which makes them in-ignore-able.

LValx wrote:
The problem with the War Walkers is that it is almost always a bad idea to shoot at the Fortuned Seers (especially if they get Invis) so opponents will have to focus fire on the secondary elements and War Walkers are both pricey and fragile. Necrons have an especially easy time taking them out because of both Barges (who they cannot damage) and Flyers (who they are inefficient against). Wraithlord T8 makes them very, very difficult to kill with mid-strength fire and they are immune to most anti-infantry firepower (which is taken in spades), the Walkers will even die to Str.4 shooting now... The opponent also should invest more points into troops. His are weak and any army containing 2+ Heldrakes should have no problem beating him by killing all of his troops and feeding throwaway units to the council.

The Eldar/DE list seems pretty good but he is investing way too many points into two units. Needs better support elements and a better base of troops

They can still work if you are shrewd enough. War walkers outrange necron non-flyer shooting 42" to 36" (6" move + 36" range compared to 12" move + 24" range). You can also hide those walkers behind LOS-blocking terrain (or redeploy them there with Eldrad) or even ruins for the 4+ cover. Frankly, I would have deployed them behind the seer council and beastpack so if the AB's wanted to target them, they would have to move forwards and into the threat (possible assault) range of the 2 deldar deathstars.

But frankly, necrons are probably the only army that can alpha-strike the walkers whenever they want. Most other armies would have to allocate the resources into dealing with at least 1 of the deathstars. Even the crons would be foolish to leave both deathstars intact. And any necron non-flyer unit that moves into shooting range of the walkers will also be moving into the threat range of the deathstars.

I must admit that I am a little biased. I don't really fear eldar MC's. Mindshacke scarabs and massed wraith attacks will take care of them easily enough. However, every time I've gone up against war walkers (Frankie runs 6 war walkers in his Dark Harliestar and Grant used to run 9 war walkers back in 5th), they have managed to really hurt my armies, especially when combined with Guide/Prescience and Doom. Nevertheless, what I see his list needs most is not resiliency (other than for his scoring units). His deathstars are resilient enough. In a truly balanced TAC list, what he needs most is some more shooting IMO. If that means dropping some of his warlocks, than that is what I feel he needs to do.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I don't think his list is all that strong to be honest, it has way to many hard counters. The most obvious being fliers which can kill his support units easily. Seer councils are a pain until you realizes that for their cost, the easiest solution is ignoring them. If he wants to redeploy 48" like you mentioned he will be leaving his hit and run toy behind which ruins the unit. It's incredibly hard for his two units to recoup their investments. That said all his other units are insanely delicate which is why is think his list is kind of weak, it literally makes target priority easy for the opponent. Nob bikers are better in my opinion because they score which makes them in-ignore-able.

The real reason why I was able to destroy his scoring units so easily was because he under-estimated the reach and firepower of the necrons. There was actually probably 2 spots in the ruins where he could have hid 1 or 2 of the jetbikes. That would have saved them as I then wouldn't have been able to allocate wounds to them to completely destroy the unit (I probably would have been able to see 2 models at the most). But what would have really helped was to have a 3rd unit of GJB's (like he did in his game against my bugs). I might have still been able to wipe them out, but he would have had a good chance to have at least 1 survive until Turn 5. Then I'd have to make some decisions - either to go after his GJB or to go grab objectives that are safely away from his seer council.

But now that he's had some experience, I think he can make better decisions with regards to how to run/hide his jetbikes.

Yeah, his seer council was too large. I'd probably build my seer council like JGrand suggested - 6 or at most 7 warlocks and maybe 3-4 destructors only. Those extra points could have definitely been used to bulk up his support units.

He doesn't need to leave the Baron behind when he turbo-boosts. He just needs to conga-line and string him along. It is also because of this maneuver how he can avoid rune priest psychic defense. Turbo your seer council but string out your farseer outside of their Runic staff range.

Nob bikers do have the advantage of being scoring, but in this game, he was lucky to get the Warlord trait that made his council scoring.

Right, conga lines help but I said you cannot really use the 48" reach with thew Baron which is still true, he also makes it harder when conga lining to "jump" bubble wrap. Clearly he increases the effectiveness of the squad, but he comes at a cost to their mobility no matter how you look at it which was my point.

With regards to support units, I agree with you. He definitely needs more GJB, but no matter what, he was in tough doo doo against Cron air. Honestly 5 warriors in a NS might be the best mix of cost mobility and durability in regards to a scoring unit in the game. Especially when considering their flier is a dedicated transport. Only thing close is a IG vet in a vendatta which cost more and takes two slots even if they get a better ride.

How did you find the Jetbikes?

 fleet of claw wrote:
How did you find the Jetbikes?

Small GJB squadrons don't cut it unless you're lucky and they appear from reserve late enough so that the enemy has a hard time to deal with them.

Small GJB squadrons don't cut it unless you're lucky and they appear from reserve late enough so that the enemy has a hard time to deal with them.

I think it really depends on what your opponent has. I run 3x3 GJB in my list. If I'm on a board where I can hide them, they are fine. If my opponent has lots of flyers, they have issues.

Fast moving and shooty armies aren't typically a problem. I run a similar list to the Eldar/DE player in this rep, and my opponents usually have a tough enough time with a Seer Council, Beastpack, and Wraithlords/Talos that they don't have the ability to dedicate substantial resources to hunting jetbikes that can move 48" away in a turn.

GJB can work, but they have limitations. Certainly not a "strong" point of the list.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Right, conga lines help but I said you cannot really use the 48" reach with thew Baron which is still true, he also makes it harder when conga lining to "jump" bubble wrap. Clearly he increases the effectiveness of the squad, but he comes at a cost to their mobility no matter how you look at it which was my point.

With regards to support units, I agree with you. He definitely needs more GJB, but no matter what, he was in tough doo doo against Cron air. Honestly 5 warriors in a NS might be the best mix of cost mobility and durability in regards to a scoring unit in the game. Especially when considering their flier is a dedicated transport. Only thing close is a IG vet in a vendatta which cost more and takes two slots even if they get a better ride.

The Baron does bog down the unit somewhat when it comes to jumping over screening units, but at least they have that capability if they really need it (by de-attaching the Baron at the expense of H&R). While this won't be done very often, it is a viable tactic for the last turn objective grab/contest as well as splitting the Baron off to go after another objective.

I agree that necron warriors in flyers are the best mix of mobility and resiliency. That is what makes the crons so good - highly mobile troops. And unlike vendettas, they don't have to switch modes and can accurately deliver their "payload" whenever necessary, not to mention said payload can always be reloaded back into their transport without danger to the transport whatsoever.

 fleet of claw wrote:
How did you find the Jetbikes?

Despite the fact that they died quite easily in this game, I really like them.

With the exception of necron flyers and probably the heldrake, most armies just cannot catch them. Moreover, they are the cheapest, fast troop choice in the game.

 JGrand wrote:

Small GJB squadrons don't cut it unless you're lucky and they appear from reserve late enough so that the enemy has a hard time to deal with them.

I think it really depends on what your opponent has. I run 3x3 GJB in my list. If I'm on a board where I can hide them, they are fine. If my opponent has lots of flyers, they have issues.

Fast moving and shooty armies aren't typically a problem. I run a similar list to the Eldar/DE player in this rep, and my opponents usually have a tough enough time with a Seer Council, Beastpack, and Wraithlords/Talos that they don't have the ability to dedicate substantial resources to hunting jetbikes that can move 48" away in a turn.

GJB can work, but they have limitations. Certainly not a "strong" point of the list.

Exactly. The GJB's are actually quite difficult to kill for many armies, especially when the opposing army needs to deal with all the other threats on the board.

As a matter of fact, that is normally how I build my armies - with inexpensive but highly resilient troops. For my necrons, I run 4x5 warriors, of which 3 are in night scythes. For my bugs, I run 2 tervies and 2 min-sized gant squads. For my chaos marines, I run 2x30 zombies with 2-3 10x zombies as well. Then I fill the rest of my army with killiness. My troops don't really play a large role in the offense. However, they are designed to be able survive enemy offense and still get to the objectives in the end. I see the GJB's in a similar role. Fast and cheap scoring units who are resilient due to their knack of moving outside and away from trouble.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 fleet of claw wrote:
How did you find the Jetbikes?

Small GJB squadrons don't cut it unless you're lucky and they appear from reserve late enough so that the enemy has a hard time to deal with them.

They are good because the majority of the armies out there really have a hard time trying to take them out while at the same time having to deal with 2 deathstars and the shooting of the walkers all at once. By themselves, they are fragile and don't appear to do much, but if you take a look at the big picture - how the jetbikes interact with the rest of the army - they actually synergize quite well IMO.

I know you didn't just say that Tervigons don't really play a large role in your offense....

 JGrand wrote:

Dang, the Necrons are looking strong. I'm still not sure what their weaknesses are...

Crons are still a really strong codex. This list in particular really doesn't want to see armies that can put out multiple enfeebles. Wraiths getting ID'd to strength four is particularly brutal.

I think Crons overall are currently the strongest army. They can mulch a lot of stuff. Having to rely upon casting multiple casting of one psychic power is not a balanced approach in my opinion. What I took away from the batrep is very valuable for me as a gamer. It seems like jy2 has made the necessary adjustments without tweaking his list.

 jy2 wrote:

 fleet of claw wrote:
How did you find the Jetbikes?

Despite the fact that they died quite easily in this game, I really like them.

With the exception of necron flyers and probably the heldrake, most armies just cannot catch them. Moreover, they are the cheapest, fast troop choice in the game.

 JGrand wrote:

Small GJB squadrons don't cut it unless you're lucky and they appear from reserve late enough so that the enemy has a hard time to deal with them.

I think it really depends on what your opponent has. I run 3x3 GJB in my list. If I'm on a board where I can hide them, they are fine. If my opponent has lots of flyers, they have issues.

Fast moving and shooty armies aren't typically a problem. I run a similar list to the Eldar/DE player in this rep, and my opponents usually have a tough enough time with a Seer Council, Beastpack, and Wraithlords/Talos that they don't have the ability to dedicate substantial resources to hunting jetbikes that can move 48" away in a turn.

GJB can work, but they have limitations. Certainly not a "strong" point of the list.

Exactly. The GJB's are actually quite difficult to kill for many armies, especially when the opposing army needs to deal with all the other threats on the board.

As a matter of fact, that is normally how I build my armies - with inexpensive but highly resilient troops. For my necrons, I run 4x5 warriors, of which 3 are in night scythes. For my bugs, I run 2 tervies and 2 min-sized gant squads. For my chaos marines, I run 2x30 zombies with 2-3 10x zombies as well. Then I fill the rest of my army with killiness. My troops don't really play a large role in the offense. However, they are designed to be able survive enemy offense and still get to the objectives in the end. I see the GJB's in a similar role. Fast and cheap scoring units who are resilient due to their knack of moving outside and away from trouble.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 fleet of claw wrote:
How did you find the Jetbikes?

Small GJB squadrons don't cut it unless you're lucky and they appear from reserve late enough so that the enemy has a hard time to deal with them.

They are good because the majority of the armies out there really have a hard time trying to take them out while at the same time having to deal with 2 deathstars and the shooting of the walkers all at once. By themselves, they are fragile and don't appear to do much, but if you take a look at the big picture - how the jetbikes interact with the rest of the army - they actually synergize quite well IMO.

So you use them to harass the enemy and try and take some focus off of your Aspect Warriors? I can sort of see the use of them, tieing down shooty units and contesting objectives late game etc, but in terms of firepower there isnt really much going for them

As you know I've been testing the beastpack list as well. When we decided to test out a faster list we included three Venoms (2 warrior squads, one wyche), 2 GJB squads,
a Razorwing and an AGL at 1750. That's five troops. We also had left over points for Swooping Hawks ... don't laugh. They sit behind the Aegis and create a no vehicle
zone - they can shoot forward and destroy a vehicle easily and turn four they skyleap and come back turn five for line breaker. The Venoms are used either to castle up to
stop DSing troops or aggressively against normal reserves. The list, i believe, is better against Crons and other three plus flyer lists but not as good against Nids, Orks
and other footloggers - you now give your opponent targets for his heavy weapons that Sean's and Ryan's type of list does not have. I looked at this list and your
report carefully. He played well but he did have some bad luck and you did roll very well. I think regardless he was up against a list that his number. Keep these reports
coming. I'm learning something new which each one.

 Janthkin wrote:
I know you didn't just say that Tervigons don't really play a large role in your offense....

Well, maybe not tervigons, but I do run cheap, min-sized termagant units.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

I think Crons overall are currently the strongest army. They can mulch a lot of stuff. Having to rely upon casting multiple casting of one psychic power is not a balanced approach in my opinion. What I took away from the batrep is very valuable for me as a gamer. It seems like jy2 has made the necessary adjustments without tweaking his list.

With all the allies and now Forgeworld added to the mix, it's really hard to say whether they are the strongest, but they are definitely a title contender. They're one of the most balanced tournament army currently with a good mix of shooting, assault, excellent mobility and resiliency. But as the BAO is the first (and probably the largest) major GT to allow Forgeworld, it's hard to get a good prediction. I think at this tournament, it could be anyone's game, though I can definitely see necrons taking it all the way.

 fleet of claw wrote:

So you use them to harass the enemy and try and take some focus off of your Aspect Warriors? I can sort of see the use of them, tieing down shooty units and contesting objectives late game etc, but in terms of firepower there isnt really much going for them

You could do that, but most likely I will hide them and perhaps do the jump-shoot-jump if I can find LOS-blocking terrain. The important thing is that you need to keep them alive until the very end, when they make a mad dash for the objectives. Their offense is just secondary. I don't mind at all if they don't really contribute. Then again, with a seer council, the beastpack and some scatter walkers, I've got enough offense to deal with almost any non-flyer-spam army.

 felixcat wrote:

As you know I've been testing the beastpack list as well. When we decided to test out a faster list we included three Venoms (2 warrior squads, one wyche), 2 GJB squads,
a Razorwing and an AGL at 1750. That's five troops. We also had left over points for Swooping Hawks ... don't laugh. They sit behind the Aegis and create a no vehicle
zone - they can shoot forward and destroy a vehicle easily and turn four they skyleap and come back turn five for line breaker. The Venoms are used either to castle up to
stop DSing troops or aggressively against normal reserves. The list, i believe, is better against Crons and other three plus flyer lists but not as good against Nids, Orks
and other footloggers - you now give your opponent targets for his heavy weapons that Sean's and Ryan's type of list does not have. I looked at this list and your
report carefully. He played well but he did have some bad luck and you did roll very well. I think regardless he was up against a list that his number. Keep these reports
coming. I'm learning something new which each one.

There's still a lot that I don't really know about eldar because I don't play eldar, though I have played against them on many occasions (most of which was in 5th ed.).

I like the idea of the venom. I see why some players prefer to use a primarily foot build, but if you reserve those venoms (or hide them), that can mitigate the easy First Blood bonus point. As a matter of fact, I would prefer the Venom unit over the 10-man warrior foot squads. The razorwing may be a little harder to do in the case of my opponent's list, but they may be a good substitute for the war walkers (or wraithlords). Now you only need to pray that it doesn't come in before the enemy flyers do.

Yeah, he did make some mistakes, of which one of them was not protecting his jetbikes well enough. But as he gains more experience against the crons, I think he'll only get better. But I do agree that my crons may be a scissors to his paper army.