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So I’ve been playing warhammer 40k for about 7 years now and have attended some 12+ local tournaments. With warhammer fantasy I’ve been playing it on and off for about 3 years and have no tournament experience in it. Which leads me to my question?

In 40k it is generally an open list game. One in which there are not any surprises for your opponent. If your captain has an ancient artifact it will be on your army list, clear as day, which you provide for your opponent pregame. Squads which are in transports are clearly defined and nothing is hidden. WYSIWYG is the usual norm in tournaments, at least it is strived for by players.

As I look to get into some fantasy tournaments this year I have questions how such things are run and as to the etiquette of the tournament scene.

Do players strive for the WYSIWIG likeness of 40k? What must be modeled in your units?

I understand that players usually exchange lists AFTER the match, but what is exactly open for discussion in your army PreGame? When must items be disclosed in your army?

Thank you for your replies.

WYSIWYG is not fully enforced with fantasy. It may be good, but it'd be hard to model some of the characters with specific weapons from the book (like having a beastlord who usually carries an axe but takes the 'ogre blade') so even in the book, it says 'We just change the name of the weapon to instead of being an "ogre blade" it simply gets called an "ogre axe."

That being said, you can't throw an unit of trolls on the table and say they're chaos knights or something, there are limits.

As for exchanging lists before the game starts. No. It's not a rule, but i suppose if you want to then you can talk with your opponent about it, but it's not a requirement. It'd ruin the fun of having sneaky items like most skaven armies or even little surprises.

I usually just say things like "This is a unit of ogre bulls with hand weapon and iron fist and full command." That's the extent of my details for them. Even for characters it's simply "This is my ogre tyrant, this is the firebelly, and this is a slaughtermaster."

That's how me and my friends do things anyway.

Camarodragon wrote:
So I’ve been playing warhammer 40k for about 7 years now and have attended some 12+ local tournaments. With warhammer fantasy I’ve been playing it on and off for about 3 years and have no tournament experience in it. Which leads me to my question?

In 40k it is generally an open list game. One in which there are not any surprises for your opponent. If your captain has an ancient artifact it will be on your army list, clear as day, which you provide for your opponent pregame. Squads which are in transports are clearly defined and nothing is hidden. WYSIWYG is the usual norm in tournaments, at least it is strived for by players.

As I look to get into some fantasy tournaments this year I have questions how such things are run and as to the etiquette of the tournament scene.

Do players strive for the WYSIWIG likeness of 40k? What must be modeled in your units?

I understand that players usually exchange lists AFTER the match, but what is exactly open for discussion in your army PreGame? When must items be disclosed in your army?

Thank you for your replies.

WYSIWIG tends to be a bit looser in Fantasy, especially with magic items where it may be impractical to have them all modeled on the model in question.
Additionally, Fantasy tends to be close list, with all pertinent information being disclosed only at the start of the pertinent phase. Example, I take a unit of 5 Blood Knights w/ full command and banner of blood keep, I do not have to disclose the banner of blood keep until they are shot at.
However, TO's will enforce it to various degrees (I'm going to a tourney next month that is open list for example) so as always with any tourney, ask ahead.

It really depends on the gaming environment.....like in friendly play you could tell everything before hand or not as is your want but in tournament play (atleast in Éire) its all open lists with lists even being put on line pre-tournament

Depends on tournament.

Wysiwig is almost non-existent in fantasy because it doesn't have the insane granularity that 40K has. You know, where guys having a plasma pistol or power fist or power sword is massively different. Your troops will have shields or they won't. That's about as fuzzy as it gets. (For instance).

Heroes have magic items and they really can't ever be modeled. As for whether you declare, it's up to tournament. I think it's a good idea to show what exists to see if it's legal. But there are specific abilities that heroes have that reveal magic items, which implies they are hidden on each model.

The place I do tourneys at runs open lists with you and your opponent swapping lists and reading them over before the game starts. It kinda kills the surprise of what your heroes and such have but i guess it adds a little bit more of a challenge.

as for wysiwyg its pretty simple as most models are pretty much good on it with heroes being the exception. I just try to pick a hero that is closest to what I am using as in how armoured and what type of weapon. Kinda odd to drop down a guy wearing full plate and wielding a pistol if the actual gear for him isn't wearing any armour and has a sword and not a pistol

Fantasy, due to secret magical items, tends to be closed full list, with limited open list

Mundane items, upgrades etc should be declared, and ideally modelled. For example if you havea hero with mundane light armour you would state as such when describing your army composition. If you had a magic item which functioned as light armour (without BEING light armour) then you would not have to do explain it

WE try to have WYSIWYG for units followed where possible - so if you have spear-saurus then at least have the front few ranks with spears.

After the game you swap lists, usually.

In a well orgnanised tournament the TO has a copy (beforehand, to check over) and can answer queries without revealing items that should be kept private

When it comes to revealing items, you do so as soon as the item can have an effect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mundane items, upgrades etc should be declared, and ideally modelled. For example if you havea hero with mundane light armour you would state as such when describing your army composition. If you had a magic item which functioned as light armour (without BEING light armour) then you would not have to do explain it

What about situations where a model has, say, the Enchanted Shield? So, he's on foot, he has mundane heavy armor, and has a 3+ armor save. If you tell your opponent that he has a 3+ armor save, they'll know something is up. Or do you not declare the armor save in advance? Or do you say he has heavy armor and a shield (which would mean 4+) and just hide the Enchanted Shield until he's hit?

Or what about a Vampire with wings, or a Daemon Prince is highly customizable, so a DP with wings? Must that be declared? Should it be modeled?

edit. I am talking closed list environment here. Open lists are pretty well.... open...

Open lists ruin things that are designed as secrets, such as fanatics, goblin sneaks, and assassins. It also devalues items that reveal magic items.

How I see it being played is anything that has a mundane type, such as armor of fortune (heavy armor), you'd say, this guy has "heavy armor".

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Open lists ruin things that are designed as secrets, such as fanatics, goblin sneaks, and assassins. It also devalues items that reveal magic items.

I agree with that completely. But on the other hand, closed lists is a bad plan. As it allows for mistakes to be made without being caught up on.

Where we play, tournament entrants are encouraged to submit their list to the TO before the day of the tournament so he can check for accuracy. If you show up the day of the tourney without doing so, you can be subject to tourney wide stink-eye if the TO's review of your list delays things. Lists can be exchanged before game if both players want, but usually, they're exchanged after the game.

I'm fairly sure that it varies from tournament to tournament, but, in my experience, it's mainly closed list, so you don't have to say anything about your list if you don't want to. I did go to this one tournament though where not choosing to reveal anything about your army was a fast way to get a low sportsmanship score. But it was down South, and people are funny there

Anyway, WYSIWYG is not really a problem in fantasy. In 40k, you can have a unit where a quarter, or perhaps more, of the unit have different wargear. In WHFB, that doesn't happen the vast majority of the time, save for a unit champion having a magic item. That said, it wouldn't be good etiquette to charge your unit of Dwarf Warriors, modelled with Hand Weapons and Shields, into an enemy unit and then say "oh btw, these guys have Great Weapons."

So, I'd make sure you outline the rough setup of your army. For example, "here is a unit of Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons and Full Command" and "Here is the Lord, he is the army General". I would certainly not be under any obligation to reveal magic items or similar things to your opponent. There may be cases where you perhaps should, but I've never come across any.

 Tangent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mundane items, upgrades etc should be declared, and ideally modelled. For example if you havea hero with mundane light armour you would state as such when describing your army composition. If you had a magic item which functioned as light armour (without BEING light armour) then you would not have to do explain it

What about situations where a model has, say, the Enchanted Shield? So, he's on foot, he has mundane heavy armor, and has a 3+ armor save. If you tell your opponent that he has a 3+ armor save, they'll know something is up. Or do you not declare the armor save in advance? Or do you say he has heavy armor and a shield (which would mean 4+) and just hide the Enchanted Shield until he's hit?

An enchanted shield is a Shield, so you would say "Heavy armour, Shield" and not value the armour save at all - you are listing *equipment* not *stats* here

Daemon Princes take wings as a mundane, non-magic gear. Declare them.

As for semi-closed lists, they work just perfectly in our tournaments. I TO a couple of tournaments, and the key thing is the TO MUST have th elists in beforehand, to check for errors. Takes a ton of time, especially if youre nice like I am and allow people to correct mistakes (even "you do realise you are under by 100 points, right?" mistakes!) beforehand. Too many base errors by people to not do list checking (fave being Dwarven runes mistakes, too many arcane items, and getting the two ward save items names mixed up...)

I "think" that in fantasy not knowing is part of the strategy. Best example I can think of is "fanatics". A goblin army without any would still freak out their opponent by not knowing. It is proving that you spent the points later that is important.

Fantasy is more of a "shell game" while 40k is more skirmish WYSIWYG.

Usually figuring out how closed mouth your opponent is about their army sets the tone of what to give up to them in turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tangent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mundane items, upgrades etc should be declared, and ideally modelled. For example if you havea hero with mundane light armour you would state as such when describing your army composition. If you had a magic item which functioned as light armour (without BEING light armour) then you would not have to do explain it

What about situations where a model has, say, the Enchanted Shield? So, he's on foot, he has mundane heavy armor, and has a 3+ armor save. If you tell your opponent that he has a 3+ armor save, they'll know something is up. Or do you not declare the armor save in advance? Or do you say he has heavy armor and a shield (which would mean 4+) and just hide the Enchanted Shield until he's hit?

An enchanted shield is a Shield, so you would say "Heavy armour, Shield" and not value the armour save at all - you are listing *equipment* not *stats* here

Daemon Princes take wings as a mundane, non-magic gear. Declare them.

While I agree, the question of bloodlines and big names comes up. Personally, I declare them. People generally know who you are fighting against, and if it's a name (ogre) or a family trait (bloodline), then they are likely to know that. They might not know what gear Lady Ruthgar Blooddrinker will show up with, but her family is know for the transfixing gaze and her fury in battle.

Locally, I see fantasy games more story based, and 40K less-so.

-Matt

Are they magic items? No? Then you declare them.

Thats about it for requirements. Mundane? Declare. Magical? Declare when they first get used.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are they magic items? No? Then you declare them.

Thats about it for requirements. Mundane? Declare. Magical? Declare when they first get used.

Assassins and fanatics are not magical, they are mundane. Want to revise your stance?

-Matt

WYSIWYG is much more relaxed.


Generally, magic weapons are the only thing you need to show. And there is a bit of leeway in what is what.

Like someone mentioned, the Ogre Blade could be an Ogre Axe.

Only things that are explicitly a specific weapon would need to be more specific. The Fencer's Blades would need to be 2 weapons of some sort, or the Heartwood Lance(brettonia) had better be represented with a Lance. HEs have a Halberd weapon too IIRC.


If he has a magic shield the character should have a shield of some sort. Other items are usually too small to say what they look like. A talisman of preservation could be any sort of random doohicky hanging about the character's person.

Units should have mostly their correct armament. I wouldn't mind a unit of Spearmen with shields having the front rank wielding hand weapons and shields, realistically the front rank would pull out these weapons when the enemy got close within the effective range of the shields.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are they magic items? No? Then you declare them.

Thats about it for requirements. Mundane? Declare. Magical? Declare when they first get used.

Vampiric Powers???

As a TO, I request all lists are submitted to me so they can be checked, however, we leave it up to the players as to whether they choose to disclose whats in the unit.

Normal etiquette for WFB tournaments is to declare what the unit is on deployment with numbers and upgrades, so 20 Chaos warriors, Full Command and Halberds wouldn't be unreasonable.

Magic items of all flavours and secret cool stuff, skaven/dark elf assassins and gobbo fanatics, shouldn't be declared until you reveal them, it would be unreasonable of your opponenent to expect that level of disclosure and could have a serious knock on effect on the game (knowing that the night gobbo unit didn't have a whirling loonie (or 3) in it would seriously increase its chances of getting charged IMHO)

I remember a guy who used to pull out 2-3 Dark Elf assassins and just have them on his sideboard.

Never actually had that many in his list, but it freaked people out at tournaments.

In my experience things are hidden.

Some things have to be hidden to make it fair. If my enemy always knew how many Fanatics I bring in what units, they are way worse. Having 12 Fanatics next to the board makes your opponent think twice. Especially when you don't have any in your actual list

HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are they magic items? No? Then you declare them.

Thats about it for requirements. Mundane? Declare. Magical? Declare when they first get used.

Assassins and fanatics are not magical, they are mundane. Want to revise your stance?

-Matt

No. Are they on the board, such that you have to describe their composition as they are mundane?

YEs, you declare vampiric powers. They arent magical (as defined in the rulebook, not fluff)

Around here, all fantasy tournies that I've been to are full open list.

If you have something like an assassin, you declare that you have it. Then you secretly write down which unit it is and declare when relevant.

Killjoy00 wrote:
Around here, all fantasy tournies that I've been to are full open list.

If you have something like an assassin, you declare that you have it. Then you secretly write down which unit it is and declare when relevant.

Open lists is a considerable disadvantage for Night Goblins. I don't see why there is a need for open lists. Just check the list after the game and if someone lied about it, declare the game a loss for him...

Open lists are generally in 99% of cases a No No in fantasy.
The main reason that they are Open in 40k is due to the average age group that plays 40k. There seems to be trust issues with 40k players.
Basically "I want to see what you have and where so I can see what I have to kill it"
No skill, No surprises.. Wheres the fun in that?

Fantasy players like to run in to things and then say "Ahh $%^£, didnt know he had that"

I honestly could not imagine playing fantasy with open lists.

I couldn't imagine playing without it. Honestly, it matter for night goblins? You know they have fanatics.

Tournaments are much better when open list. Otherwise, you just have a lot of "gotcha" moments.

Here is a list of GTs that are open list that me or my friends have gone to:

Unplugged gt
Grim Gt
Crossroads
Da Boyz Gt
Conflict Gt

Killjoy00 wrote:
Tournaments are much better when open list.

Only in 40k.
No game of Fantasy is better with open lists. Tourneys are patently worse since they have oversight of the lists via TO anyway.

 kirsanth wrote:

No game of Fantasy is better with open lists. Tourneys are patently worse since they have oversight of the lists via TO anyway.

Have you played both? That's a very sweeping statement with little factual backup. For what it's worth, I think that open list is still a very strategic game. Essentially it amounts to "knowing" that an opposing character has a specific set of magic items v. guessing that they do. Plus, what happens when my 2++ v. flaming guy goes up against your unit with flaming banner. If I don't declare, do you conveniently forget that you have it? (Or genuinely forget). Either way, it's a recipe for post-game hard feelings and complaints.

Mostly, I think both are viable systems and interesting games -- just because it's mostly played closed in X location doesn't mean it's wrong to play open. (And vice versa).