Heldrake Vector Strike Question

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**thefishstick**

I was playing a game recently where the guy who would move his Heldrake at cruising during the movement phase and would vector strike. Then at the end of his shooting phase would move the remaining flat out portion of it so it would go off the board. Is it just me or is he doing this incorrectly? I was under the impression that flat out movement takes place only during the movement phase and you can't decide to do it later during the shooting phase.

Also, can Heldrake use vector strike against other flyers?

**pretre**

I believe you'll find this is all covered in the BRB.

Flyers and Flat Out on Page 81
Vector Strike: P43, I believe.

**thefishstick**

Thnkx; ill check the BRB when i get home from work.

**DJGietzen**

Correct me if I am wrong but Run, Turbo Boost, a Flat Out, are all types of movement you can do in the shooting phase instead of shooting.

**nosferatu1001**

This is a change to 4th and 5th, where extra movement was performed in the movement phase (with some exceptions, codex specific)

**Slayer le boucher**

Flat out is made in the shooting phase.

Pg 72

**Mannahnin**

Right. It's a change from 5th to 6th. In 5th Flat Out was an additional higher speed of movement Fast Vehicles could use in the movement phase. Now it's a second move made in the Shooting phase, and all vehicles (except Heavy?) can do it, just at different speeds.

**ted1138**

If he made a vector strike then he can't move flat out, as the vector strike counts as having fired in the shooting phase, and you can't fire and move flat out...

**Slayer le boucher**

No.

When Vector striking you can use only 3 Weapons, on the 4 Weapons you are allowed to use because you are a flyer in the shooting, phase.

So you vector strike, and you can Flat out after it.

**Fragile**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
No.

When Vector striking you can use only 3 Weapons, on the 4 Weapons you are allowed to use because you are a flyer in the shooting, phase.

So you vector strike, and you can Flat out after it.

Pg 43. A model that made a Vector Strike in its Movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase.

Pg. 72. A vehicle can elect to move Flat Out instead of firing in the Shooting phase.

If you have already fired in the shooting phase, then you cannot Flat Out.

**Drunkspleen**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
No.

When Vector striking you can use only 3 Weapons, on the 4 Weapons you are allowed to use because you are a flyer in the shooting, phase.

So you vector strike, and you can Flat out after it.

I don't agree with this, the wording is:

"A model that made a Vector Strike in its movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase."

It specifically counts as having fired, rather than simply telling us it can fire one less than normal.

Critical to this is the wording for Flat Out, which I think is somewhat open to interpretation.

"A vehicle can elect to move Flat Out instead of firing in the Shooting phase..."

(note: There's some issue in exactly what the clause "in the Shooting phase" applies to, but it's irrelevant for this discussion.)

The Helldrake, having performed a Vector Strike, now counts as already having fired a weapon during the shooting phase, as such, he cannot perform any action which is done instead of firing such a weapon, including a Flat Out movement.

Also, it's worth noting that there's some debate as to whether a Flat Out move even qualifies for the purposes of going off the board since the Leaving Combat airspace rule starts with the following reference "It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board", the argument being a Zoom move is only the actual movement phase action, not the Flat Out.

**Mannahnin**

I tend to concur. You can only leave combat airspace during a Zoom move.

**thefishstick**

Drunkspleen wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
No.

When Vector striking you can use only 3 Weapons, on the 4 Weapons you are allowed to use because you are a flyer in the shooting, phase.

So you vector strike, and you can Flat out after it.

I don't agree with this, the wording is:

"A model that made a Vector Strike in its movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase."

It specifically counts as having fired, rather than simply telling us it can fire one less than normal.

Critical to this is the wording for Flat Out, which I think is somewhat open to interpretation.

"A vehicle can elect to move Flat Out instead of firing in the Shooting phase..."

(note: There's some issue in exactly what the clause "in the Shooting phase" applies to, but it's irrelevant for this discussion.)

The Helldrake, having performed a Vector Strike, now counts as already having fired a weapon during the shooting phase, as such, he cannot perform any action which is done instead of firing such a weapon, including a Flat Out movement.

Also, it's worth noting that there's some debate as to whether a Flat Out move even qualifies for the purposes of going off the board since the Leaving Combat airspace rule starts with the following reference "It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board", the argument being a Zoom move is only the actual movement phase action, not the Flat Out.

See thats what I was thinking; it does specifically state it counts as having fired; so in turn would be entering the shooting phase as already having shot so it would be unable to move flat out. It sounded like it would be the equivalent to shooting during the shooting phase and then moving flat out.

**AzureDeath**

Ok guys, I do not play CSM but have 2 players in my group that do. According to the wiz's at GW apparently the Helldrake is immune to this rule for some bs reason and can therefore make a meteroric strike and then in the following shooting phase can shoot its -------weapon, even tho it only has ONE, even tho the vector strike rules say NO. Waiting for FAQ now.

**nosferatu1001**

Nothing you said has any basis in rules. The VS rules are quite clear it can fire one less weapon in the shooting phase, as it counts as having fired a weapon already. Not that it counts as firing the flamer / cannon.

**Happyjew**

AzureDeath wrote:
Ok guys, I do not play CSM but have 2 players in my group that do. According to the wiz's at GW apparently the Helldrake is immune to this rule for some bs reason and can therefore make a meteroric strike and then in the following shooting phase can shoot its -------weapon, even tho it only has ONE, even tho the vector strike rules say NO. Waiting for FAQ now.

It's simple. A Flyer (such as the Heldrake) can fire 4 weapons. Vector Strike counts as firing a weapon. Therefore a Flyer that Vector Strike can fire 3 weapons. It fires its flamer. It can fire 2 more weapons. It does not have 2 more weapons to fire.

**AzureDeath**

delete.

**grendel083**

AzureDeath wrote:
So since it only has one shooting weapon, in the movement phase it is shooting its finger nails during the vector strike. Oh I see, since flyers can shoot up to 4 weapons in shooting phase then cause it only has one weapon and everyone paid $75 it is immune to that fact. I see. So I guess I can fire the weapons on my flying toaster twice each shooting phase since it only has 2 weapons but can fire 4. Ok I see how that can even the playing field thanks.

Don't know where the misreading of the rules (and hate) comes from. Your argument truly has no basis in terms of rules.
You count a weapon as having fired, not an equipped weapon.

**BarBoBot**

AzureDeath wrote:
So since it only has one shooting weapon, in the movement phase it is shooting its finger nails during the vector strike. Oh I see, since flyers can shoot up to 4 weapons in shooting phase then cause it only has one weapon and everyone paid $75 it is immune to that fact. I see. So I guess I can fire the weapons on my flying toaster twice each shooting phase since it only has 2 weapons but can fire 4. Ok I see how that can even the playing field thanks.

The mouth mounted weapon is what is shooting in the shooting phase. It's clearly NOT the shooting weapon that is doing the vector strike, it's the sharp claws that the heldrake has as far as fluff is concerned.

The idea that using its claws somehow prevents its mouth from working is not a solid arguement. It's a petty way to try and gimp a unit because your mad that it's crazy good.

Rules wise It's not complicted... Flyers are allowed to fire 4 weapons. Vector strike counts as firing a single weapon. You can now fire 3 more weapons. Did the baleflamer get fired yet? No? Well then it's a legal choice to be fired as 1 of the 3 weapons you are still allowed to fire.

The fluff and the rules both back up being able to vector strike AND shoot the flamer.

**nosferatu1001**

AzureDeath wrote:
So since it only has one shooting weapon, in the movement phase it is shooting its finger nails during the vector strike. Oh I see, since flyers can shoot up to 4 weapons in shooting phase then cause it only has one weapon and everyone paid $75 it is immune to that fact. I see. So I guess I can fire the weapons on my flying toaster twice each shooting phase since it only has 2 weapons but can fire 4. Ok I see how that can even the playing field thanks.

Again, please cite some actual rules, as the tenets of this forum requires you to do, or concede you have no argument.

I will ignore the multiple logical fallacies you have presented.

**AzureDeath**

delete.

**Mannahnin**

The rules say a Zooming Flyer can shoot up to 4 weapons, and the Vector Strike rules say it counts as having fired a weapon. 4 - 1 = 3.

The leap you're making, which is unsupported by the rules, is to say that it counts has having fired a specific weapon- namely the Baleflamer or Hades.

**BarBoBot**

People might be willing to agree with you if the rule actually said one of the vehicles specific weapons can't fire if you vector strike. It doesn't say that however.

It says the model "counts as firing 1 weapon in it's following movement phase"

If a flyer can fire 4 weapons and counts as already firing 1, it can fire 3 more weapons that phase. Since the baleflamer has not fired, it is permitted to fire.

**AzureDeath**

No leap

**liturgies of blood**

AzureDeath wrote:
No leap but I am bowing out as of now, back to playing.My arguement is legit and I've played this game for over 19 years and understand completely how it reads. So Now just wait for FAQ. ..............................

6th ed is only 9 months old. I fail to see how you can play this game for 19 years.
The writers have changed, the rules have changed, new elements are introduced.

+1 internets to you though.

**Mannahnin**

Of course it's a leap. You don't have a rule saying that it counts as firing a specific weapon. You don't have a rule saying "pick one weapon, that weapon cannot fire this turn". Nor anything similar. You're making an inference, and most of us think it's an incorrect one.

On the internet we all can claim to have been playing twenty years, and to be dating supermodels who also work for the design studio.

No need to make it an Argument from Authority.

**liturgies of blood**

Mannahnim, remember that time me, you and Jes Goodwin game up with the bolter?

**AzureDeath**

I started 40k in 2nd ed. You should have more respect for the arguement and your fellow gamers.

**liturgies of blood**

AzureDeath wrote:
I started 40k in 2nd ed. You should have more respect for the arguement and your fellow gamers.

If you feel my disregard for you boarders on the offensive just ask the mods to censure me.
An argument of authority doesn't work when you're anonymous on the internet, even then you're right cos you're more experienced is an awfully arrogant stance to take.
I think it shows no respect for your fellow gamers.

**Mannahnin**

Exactly. I could just as easily claim to be Jervis. Or I could make a truthful claim, like playing over a thousand games over the past 14 years, having won Best Overall at a GT, having won dozens of local tournaments, having been on the INAT council, having been recruited as a rules judge for the Adepticon finals, presently being a top-20 ranked player for the US on Rankings HQ, being Best Chaos Space Marine player on Rankings, winning Best CSM at GW's Las Vegas Invitational Throne of Skulls, winning Best Heretical in the Adepticon Championships in both 2012 and 2011, etc.

But none of that crap really matters when we're discussing the rules. My arguments need to stand on their own logic and references to the text. If I try to claim that I'm right because of my resume, I'm commiting the fallacy known as the Argument from Authority.

PS: Yes, LoB, I totally remember when we and Jes came up with the Bolter. Remember how he originally wanted it to have an upside-down banana-style clip, and you were like, "Man, that's so 80s. Update it!"