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ScarletPheonix wrote:
LITTLE MILITARY/POLITICAL IMPORTANCE?
Calgar alone can summon thirty regs of IG,at least 100 successor chapters (more according to fluff) and god knows how many tanks.
And he is one of the most important people in the imperium, with political power equal to a HLoT.

Calgar can "summon" noone except his Ultramarines and whatever assets he commands as the Lord of Ultramar. The Legions have been sundered and each chapter is proudly independent and certainly not willing to blindly follow someone expect it's own chaptermaster. This does not preclude the existance of alliances between chapters or mutual aid in times of need, but it certainly precludes any inter- chapter hierarchies.

The possible return of Primarchs is far off in the last days. The days when all thats left is to fight.
So politics is irrelevant then. You don't need to think about another heresy then.
just hand over to those created to lead in war-times. Its without doubt the Primarchs who were made for this.
Not only marines but the combined might of the Imperium.

So final battle = Primarchs back = HLoT hiding beneath their desks. Who is gonna follow the ones who "tactically retreated" ?


------------------------------------------------------

The HLoT aren't untouchable. Because there were times without a council or a pretty depleted one.
What is the real cornerstone, the thing the Imperium is standing on and cannot afford to lose if it shall stand?
The Emperor.

At his order, everyone could be in charge.

----------------------------------------------------


HLoT are replacable.

Primarchs are a given set of 18/9.
Who isn't making it, the named Primarch or the unnamed HLoT?

The named primarchs aren't going to make it because they'd disrupt the status quo, and as we know, status quo is god.

The status quo of the Imperium is viciously maintained by the High Lords, Inquisition, and so on. You have the Inquisition going around hunting sensei and guys they suspect could be reincarnated as the Emperor because they don't want the potential chaos caused by his return. It's not malicious, they're not saying "I hate the Emperor and Primarchs!", but they don't want to give up their power and would view them as not understanding the new politics of M41.

The Primarchs would probably rally all the Astartes around them and you'd be facing a new civil war.

Not even all of the Astartes. The Grey Knights would likely be more loyal to the Inquisition, which would oppose having their power taken away (and you-- and they-- know the Lion and many other primarchs would try to do so). Many newer Astartes chapters are more loyal to the Imperium than the primarchs of old, as well.

1hadhq wrote:HLoT are replacable.

This is 40k. Everyone is replacable.
The history of the Imperium has shown as much. Including the Primarch's rather long absence.

Melissia wrote:The named primarchs aren't going to make it because they'd disrupt the status quo, and as we know, status quo is god.

The story to return the Primarchs is a godslayer then...


But yes, the Primarchs belong into the "king under the mountain" category of figures.

I would still maintain the point, that a story written about a confrontation will favor the wellknown and named characters.
Since these High Lords are faceless they are easy to swap.

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:HLoT are replacable.

This is 40k. Everyone is replacable.

Big E too?



PS:
The Primarchs are a factor of the FW-HH-line right now. I think they will stay in M30 for a while.
The flaw of the OP is, there is no reason for a return of a Primarch.

The Emperor, the person, was replaced by "The Emperor", the concept.

I could see the fluff being:

"How are we to know they are not corrupted? Where have they been all this time? Lysander had to prove himself; do the Primarchs think they are above the law? We think a nice long quest or campaign against the God Emperor's enemies are just the thing to prove them out. Say for a couple hundred years until we can have an ummm... "suitable" reception for their return."

That sounds about right for the 40k way of thinking.

1hadhq wrote:Big E too?

As a political power, most certainly.
In the past 10.000 years, he was nothing but a glorified lighthouse. And that's assuming the fluff actually told us the truth here and the Astronomican isn't already run by a machine. The psyker sacrifice sounds a bit suspicious if the Emperor once was capable to do all that by his own power. (ooooh conspiracy theories! )

The Emperor was once not a corpse on a chair, lol.

That's what I mean - to what extent is he even "necessary" for the Astronomican to burn, if all that psychic energy comes from the sacrifices?

Now, I continue to regard him acting like a sort of focus, required to merge the psychic energy of a thousand individuals into a single coherent flame. It's what the material suggests, some sources (even from GW) in a fairly unambiguous manner ...

... but at the same time, the thought of it all just being a big lie is deliciously grimdark.

The Emperor has never created the Astronomicon, his will is needed to direct it across the galaxy.

It could be a lie, but no source even implies it, that doesn't come from Chaos.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Big E too?

As a political power, most certainly.
In the past 10.000 years, he was nothing but a glorified lighthouse. And that's assuming the fluff actually told us the truth here and the Astronomican isn't already run by a machine. The psyker sacrifice sounds a bit suspicious if the Emperor once was capable to do all that by his own power. (ooooh conspiracy theories! )

Seems I am still confused by that avatar of yours. So how is it, leaving the light of the Emperor and joining the dark side?
Because, this lighthouse theory....... sounds heretical.

Youre quick to discredit the Emperor.
The political power depends on him. He is the neccessary figurehead. And the one to really have any achievement listened in GW publications.
The High lords. May sit on a high horse. But the horse belongs to the Emperor. And the horse knows it.
How could a character of importance be so unknown as a high lord? Do we know any names of them? Didn't a officio assassinate them all once?
Without any effect on the IoM ...
Now, take Big E off of his golden toilet.

That horse thing should be taken literally.

The Emperor's horse, as seen in Mechanicum, is the most powerful being in 40k canon.

I have my favourite faction(s) in the Imperium, but that doesn't mean I cannot be a fan of the franchise as a whole and appreciate different aspects. I also like the Tau, and I am intrigued by the idea of some day maybe playing a Chaos character in Black Crusade some time.

Yes, political power depends on the Emperor - but only on his public image, not the actual person. As you mentioned, he is the figurehead. A shriveled marionette for the High Lords to point at and say "He said He'd be okay with our orders!"
Look at the little empire the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis' had carved out during the latter days of the Age of Apostasy. The guy basically proclaimed Terra as fallen (in spite of his segmentum just having become isolated by warp storms) and said he'd take over for Vandire. During his best days, he had almost an entire segmentum under his rule.

In M41, the Emperor is to people like how the Christian god was to the populace of medieval Europe. Kings and Popes would use his name as justification to do whatever they wanted, and so do the High Lords and Imperial Commanders in 40k.

I also doubt that the assassination you are referring to did not have "any effect on the IoM"; we just don't know much about the incident. And if I remember correctly, the guy who arranged it was a High Lord himself - who obviously didn't kill himself but just wanted to take over, similar to Vandire.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Ecclesiarchy...not so much. Corax or Lion would probably find a way to make it self-destruct from the inside out, all the while looking like they weren't involved at all.

How's that supposed to work?

They get too troublesome/noisy, steps will be taken. I doubt the Inquisition doesn't do that, even now.

And the Emperor is not replaceable. Who will project the Astronomican? Who will soul-bind Astropaths? Who will keep the Warp portal behind the Golden Throne closed? There's even a chance if he actually dies and does not resurrect/reincarnate/transcend, the psychic prison of the Void Dragon will collapse and release the greatest and most feared of the Star Gods. In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

Admiral Valerian wrote:They get too troublesome/noisy, steps will be taken. I doubt the Inquisition doesn't do that, even now.

Yeah, but the Inquisition has its methods, specially trained operatives, contacts, leverage, political influence. How is some random Astartes Chapter supposed to achieve the same? We're talking about semi-eremite superhumans whose only contact with the wider Imperium consists of sometimes answering incoming distress calls and occasionally showing up on the battlefield to punch holes into an enemy's defenses.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And the Emperor is not replaceable. Who will project the Astronomican? Who will soul-bind Astropaths? Who will keep the Warp portal behind the Golden Throne closed? There's even a chance if he actually dies and does not resurrect/reincarnate/transcend, the psychic prison of the Void Dragon will collapse and release the greatest and most feared of the Star Gods. In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

Much of this depends on how the Golden Throne actually works, or how it could be adapted to be used by other, less powerful yet still sufficient psykers. Or, in the worst case scenario, how the Imperium could recuperate from losing its access to the warp. Would it be possible that necessity drives the Mechanicus to re-engineer Tau FTL drives?

As for the Soulbinding - that's a good question as well. Did Bucharis have any plans for this, or was he planning on more conventional means of transporting messages?

 1hadhq wrote:

Big E too?

Little known fact: we are currently at Emperor number 971. The original Emperor perished at the late 32nd millennium. He has been replaced since 970 times by the most powerful psyker the Inquisition can find. Some last only months, most few years, until the energies flowing through them have withered their bodies into empty dried husks. Ones that are truly gifted can last even decades. Emperor #130 was exceptional, lasting over a century. The corpse of the original Emperor was chopped into tiny bits and disposed with all the other waste from the Imperial Palace. His successors share the same fate.

I just can not imagine the High Lords refusing a Primarch. Im not going to debate this thread though. Just my opinion here

 Galdos wrote:
I just can not imagine the High Lords refusing a Primarch.

Why not? The primarchs are long-dead failures, nothing more.

A BIG FAT
NO........ You need to lose weight no.

They would never give it up. Not until each every single one of them is killed.

Honestly, the only Primarch with political experience was Guilliman and even then he was.....okay at best....in the odd chance that the IoM actually rallies behind the Primarchs and believes them, they would serve 1000x better as military leaders than political leaders. They were designed by the Emperor to fight and win wars, and nothing more. After all the crusading was done, they were supposed to be retired along with the Space Marines so the Imperial Army could take control of the defense of worlds. Unfortunately, the whole Heresy thing kinda prevented the plan from happening fully so the Space Marines were never retired.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

That would be my plan honestly. In that case, at least the Chaos Gods offer semi-fair (not really) treatment if I work hard enough to please them. Also, I have a feeling once a pissed off Star God comes back the Eye of Terror would be the safest place

Anyone who has power is often quite willing to give it up.

And how long would it take them to "verify" the Primarch(s)?

Unless the Primarchs take power from them, the High Lords won't give it up.

One of the last things that the Emperor did before the heresy was to disband the War Council and transfer power from the Primarchs to unmodified humans. This is one of the big reasons for the Heresy. This is how the Traitor Legions believe the Emperor betrayed them. The Primarchs were made into servants of lesser beings while the Emperor went under the palace to work on his science projects. After the Heresy it wasn't much different, with the exception of the Arch Heretic Guilliman who usurped power for himself and set himself up as Emperor until his ego got the better of him and he decided to challenge Fulgrim in hand-to-hand combat, a foe he couldn't have beaten even before he had turned into a Daemon Primarch.

If any of the other loyalist Primarchs came back, I doubt the High Lords would see any reason to change the way things are. But if Guilliman came back he'd probably use all of the Ultramarines and their progeny to overthrow them and set himself up as the master of mankind.

If Guilliman came back he wouldn't very likely be able to.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:HLoT are replacable.

This is 40k. Everyone is replacable.
The history of the Imperium has shown as much. Including the Primarch's rather long absence.

This is the most important part...Anyone who thinks that some person (below the emperor) isn't ; doesn't know the concept of the grimdark, and shoud go play d&d...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
If Guilliman came back he wouldn't very likely be able to.

Thing is he doesn't need to...Imperium divided or a civil war would be the end of mankind as we know of...

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:They get too troublesome/noisy, steps will be taken. I doubt the Inquisition doesn't do that, even now.

Yeah, but the Inquisition has its methods, specially trained operatives, contacts, leverage, political influence. How is some random Astartes Chapter supposed to achieve the same? We're talking about semi-eremite superhumans whose only contact with the wider Imperium consists of sometimes answering incoming distress calls and occasionally showing up on the battlefield to punch holes into an enemy's defenses.

Corax and Lion are extremely good conspirators. I wouldn't consider them incapable of doing so, or nudging the Inquisition in the direction of the troublemakers. Even if they don't rule the Imperium, and simply command it's armies, they still have a lot of influence.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And the Emperor is not replaceable. Who will project the Astronomican? Who will soul-bind Astropaths? Who will keep the Warp portal behind the Golden Throne closed? There's even a chance if he actually dies and does not resurrect/reincarnate/transcend, the psychic prison of the Void Dragon will collapse and release the greatest and most feared of the Star Gods. In that case, see ya. I'm off to the Eye of Terror.

Much of this depends on how the Golden Throne actually works, or how it could be adapted to be used by other, less powerful yet still sufficient psykers. Or, in the worst case scenario, how the Imperium could recuperate from losing its access to the warp. Would it be possible that necessity drives the Mechanicus to re-engineer Tau FTL drives?

The Imperium can execute short jumps (still faster than Tau 'bounces') even without the Astronomican. I reckon pocket empires ala Old Night would rise within a few decades, centered around former Fortress Worlds, Astartes realms, Forge Worlds, and the like.

As for the Soulbinding - that's a good question as well. Did Bucharis have any plans for this, or was he planning on more conventional means of transporting messages?

Epistolaries are capable of astro-telepathy, but they're Astartes. The gene-seed probably amplifies their abilities (the Primarchs were all psykers to some degree). Otherwise, yeah, FTL communications will probably be done by courier ship.

 washout77 wrote:


That would be my plan honestly. In that case, at least the Chaos Gods offer semi-fair (not really) treatment if I work hard enough to please them. Also, I have a feeling once a pissed off Star God comes back the Eye of Terror would be the safest place

That's the idea. If the Void Dragon got out...there's no psyker in the galaxy strong enough to confront it directly, especially not after it consumes everyone on Mars before heading to Terra.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Corax and Lion are extremely good conspirators. I wouldn't consider them incapable of doing so, or nudging the Inquisition in the direction of the troublemakers. Even if they don't rule the Imperium, and simply command it's armies, they still have a lot of influence.

But still ... how?

What is it that makes them good conspirators? The network of contacts they do not have anymore? Access to or knowledge of information to blackmail people who are long dead? Influence doesn't just come flying into people's laps - it either has to be earned, or taken, or inherited. A returning Primarch would have neither unless the High Lords or the Inquisition want it. (I could see potential for "backroom deals" between certain powerful individuals/organisations and a Primarch, but it still takes two to agree to those)
It'd be as if you would be sent to infiltrate the US or the Soviet Union during the Cold War, without any inside knowledge or knowing locals who could help you. Oh, and you'd be 7 feet tall and would probably attract some attention amidst normal people... See what I mean now?

The whole thing could change, given just enough time, mind you. With enough years passing, those conspirators of yours might manage to make friends of their own, gain new contacts, and use the resources and manpower from their Chapter fiefs to build an entirely new network, maybe even plant spies on other worlds or possibly infiltrate other Imperial Adepta. But this is not something that could be achieved on a short term, especially as the Inquisition would likely monitor them, and has many, many covert operatives of its own. And just a single misstep of this fledgling conspiracy could uncover the whole plan.

It's just the reality of the Marine Chapters generally not having been very close to the Imperium in the recent millennia. Coincidentally, the few who are close would probably also be the ones least likely to agree to a conspiracy against the friends they managed to make. Honour, duty, etc pp...

This assumes Lion or some other Primarch turned the tide of a Black Crusade that actually reached the Imperial throne world, and became Warmaster. By this point, he can not only command the Imperium's commanders, but has Commissars, Inquisitors, and so on by his side supposedly for advice, but also to keep an eye on him. See what I mean? Those same advisers/Terran overseers can also be asked for assistance with regards to people who get in the way of the war effort.