Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It is coming down to the wire. The BAO GT is just around the corner (this weekend) and I haven't finalized which army to take there. It's come down to 2 candidates - either my Hive Fleet Pandora that I've been practicing with so much lately or my tournament-winning wraithwing Necrons. I'm sure we will be seeing a lot of necrons at the BAO. As for tyranids, probably not as much. Unfortunately, Janthkin from my area won't be playing at the BAO this year so we will be missing 1 great tyranid player. However, maybe another young jedi can represent. Or he may bring the army which he feels may have the better chance to win it all - his hybrid wraithwing tesla-spam scythe-crons.

In any case, here is your chance to influence my decision on which to bring to the tournament.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


1. 1750 Hive Fleet Pandora

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore
3x Hive Guards
2x Zoanthropes

Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants

15x Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

2x Biovores
2x Biovores


Thoughts: Tyranids are really good in 6th Edition. It is no longer a secret how strong they can be (though many people will continue to under-estimate them). The army is not as balanced as my necrons (less mobility, shooting not as good), but the psychic powers make up for a lot of their shortcomings. However, what powers they get are more likely to influence the game. Get the right powers and they are near unstoppable. Get the wrong ones and it will be an uphill battle. This army is more at the mercy of the dice than the crons. However, they are an underdog army and many people would like to see an underdog army try to take it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2. 1750 Wraithwing Necrons

Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb

5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors

6x Canoptek Wraiths - 2x Whip Coils
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 1x Whip Coils

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Doom Scythe


Thoughts: My necrons definitely has the ability to win tournaments. It was my 1500 version of this army which took it all at 6th Edition's very first Grand Tournament:

The Road to the Golden Throne GT

Necrons are almost the perfect tournament army. A marriage of good assault (wraiths, MSS Destroyer Lords), good shooting (tesla destructor-spam), awesome mobility (night scythes, need I say more?) and excellent resiliency, necrons are one of the most balanced armies currently. They do have a couple of bad matchups (with tyranids ironically being one of them) but then again, there is no such thing as a perfect army. The crons are probably as close as it gets. If I really want to win it all, I think my necrons have a better chance because they aren't as matchup dependent (and psychic dependent) as my bugs are.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


I will post a more in-depth analysis of both of my armies later.


In the meantime, I'd like to hear your thoughts on which army I should bring. Thanks and enjoy.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


ARMY ANALYSIS:

TYRANIDS:




NECRONS:

Hey Jy2. In all the time I have been on Dakka, (A few months short of 2 years) and on Warseer, which I was on for about a year before that, you consistently have shone out as producing as excellent battle reports, and I have always enjoyed reading. I especially like seeing you play Tyranids, as I think you are a skilled player, and I enjoy seeing nids pull out victories more. If you think that you can play powerfully in 6th with Tyranids, I say go for it. You will have a more unique army and I would enjoy the reports more, because it is likely that they will be games. So I would suggest nids, (as the 2 other people who have voted so far have). Thanks!

Hey Jy2!

I've always had a soft spot in my cold, metallic heart for Necrons, so I voted that way, but play whatever you think will be more fun for you! You seem to have been favoring Hive Fleet Pandora lately, so if that's what you're having fun with, go for it!

Well, if you want to win the GT, go for the Necrons. However, I voted for Nids since they really deserve a chance in the new ed.

Nids!

Im going for Nids, you know the necrons can win but id be up for the challange of winning with nids, they are a strong tournie army now, maybe not as much as necrons but still strong!

Yea necrons are too much of an easy button for me. You will get more props win or lose with nids Plus they will be more of a wild card im sure.

Hey Jy2 I love your battle reports they are really detailed, the pictures are great, and the general play you have over your army is astounding. After consideration , I voted Nids because everyone will be running necs in some kind of wraith spam/ flyer spam fashion and to an extent I really believe you'll challenge yourself more in taking nids to combat them. It's always nice to be win but uniqueness counts as well. Nids aren't too common and for them to show up at a GT would really suprise som people and even possibly bring them back to the tournament scene, especially if you can win a majority of your matches with them. Finally, the tactical play style is much harder than your necs which have a common theme of waiting for your flyers then charging with everything afterwards; with your nids dependant on the army you do have to change up your strategy and that is why I've found your Nid battlereports to be more entertaining than your Necron battlereports Your veteran experience with your Nids should take you far and I believe when you go to this kind of tournament (not that I have been to a GT) you should enjoy the army your playing and not get bored of them especially since you'll be playing 6-7 games. I believe with your necrons you'll get bored of fighting necrons/ bored of the same general playstyle and even if you win the enjoyment is not as great as it would be had you really really worked for it with your Nids.

Good Luck otherwise no matter which army you choose.

I think Necrons will give you the best chance of victory, but I really enjoy your tyranid reports and would love to see more! Voted for hive fleet pandora.

You know me. I say roll a D2 and let the dice gods decide! Just remember to sacrifice a lot of kittens before you do. Those gods are fickle.

Take both and flip a coin the morning of. Some of us do that for things like Adepticon and other midwest events

Love all if your reports jy2 whatever you bring can't wait to read about it. However as a nids player myself I hope you take them because I think you are the best general I have seen online with the bugs. Good luck with the Bao regardless of your choice

I will be attending the BAO as well and I honestly would be more afraid of your Nids then your Necrons. Despite this I would rather go against your Nids because they are a lot more fun to play against. Hope to meet you there!

First off, thanks for all the comments so far. I will go back and respond to them a little later.

Ok, here is my analysis of the 2 armies. I will start with my bugs first. I will use a grading system with C being average.


ARMY ANALYSIS:

TYRANIDS:

Shooting: B-
My bugs have some decent shooting. Flyrants have essentially a 42" range with 12 TL-S6 shots each. Biovores can mow down infantry from 48" without the need for LOS. Hive guards are my main source for anti-tank. Although they don't need LOS to shoot, their 24" range is somewhat limited, especially against armies with some reach. And then I have gants for volume. My main weakness here is anti-tank shooting, of which I would have to rely on the hive guards and flyrants, anti-flyer shooting and anti-TEQ (terminator equivalent) units with 2+ saves.


Assault: A-
This list has decent assault with 4 resilient monstrous creatures and a volume of attack. It is not the most assaulty - there are many other builds that are more assaulty - however, tyranids have excellent anti-assault units as well. You don't necessarily have to have excellent assault units to dominate the Assault phase. You can also do it with what I call anti-assault units. This include lots of lots of gants to act as screens and to tie up enemy units and Iron Armed/FNP MC's to tarpit them as well. Yes, the bugs have a good mix of assault and anti-assault units to deal with all but the most extreme armies.


Mobility: B
While the main army is relatively slow, I've got a few mobile elements that make this army slightly better than my previous incarnations. Dual flyrants will present a major problem to many enemies and they have the mobility to catch even the fast armies. A drop podding Doom of Ma'lantai will give me a good chance for Linebreaker as well as get to those hard-to-reach units. Gargoyles can move and lastly, tervigon-spawned termagants can surprise a few people when they shoot out of their mothers. Mobility in this army isn't as bad as it used to be with tyranids.


Resiliency: A
Tyranids if anything are really tough. Psychic powers and flying MC's really add to their resiliency. Iron Arm is a game-changer against many armies. Endurance is probably just as important against the majority of the armies out there. Flying MC's make the flyrants viable once more. Also, now it is much easier for monstrous creatures to get cover (even if cover is slightly reduced). As for scoring units, gants may be easy to kill, but due to tervigons being able to spawn gants, scoring is actually one of the strong characteristics of a tyranid army. Overall, tyranids are one of the most durable armies in the game. There is lots of redudancy and lots of units in the army to make them highly resilient.


Intangibles: B+
I'll start off with the most noticeable intangibles - psychic nids. Psychic powers have improved a lot in 6th Edition and tyranids are probably the army that best take advantage of them. There's really 3 powers that tyranids will ever really need - Iron Arm, Endurance and Enfeeble - and bugs can spam these powers. With their psychic powers, bugs can now compete with armies that they couldn't before in 5th. Iron Arm makes grey knight force weapons much less scary and even gives them a chance against missile launchers which would kill them before. Endurance works across the board and against any and all armies, especially against armies such as dark eldar venom-spam which would have otherwise devastate the bugs back in 5th. Enfeeble lets the bugs deal with scary enemy deathstars such as wraiths, paladins, nob bikers, TWC and other such units. It is also a force-multiplying power that lets tyranid focus-fire destroy enemy units much in the same way as Guide/Doom did for eldar. Even though 2 armies can shut down their powers - eldar and space wolves - but at least they still have a chance to cast them whereas before in 5th, they didn't have any of those powers.

Tyranids will also have the element of surprise. Many people still do not realize how good tyranids can be. The majority of the "hype" on the net is that tyranids are still a bad or at most a mid-tier army. I suspect that many people may be surprised when they play against a good tyranid player for the first time. Under-estimating one's opponent may be enough to get bugs deeper into the tournament until they face the top players with truly balanced lists.


Problem Matchups:
Tyranids are not as balanced as some of the other armies (like my necrons). This, combined with the inherent nature of the army, means that they are more likely to encounter problematic matchups in tournament play. Armies that ignore high toughness units will give them some trouble. Such armies include Dark Eldar and other tyranids. And although the bugs are really tough, they will still have problems against ultra-shooty armies such as Tau, shooty MSU-builds, dark eldar, missile-wolves, grey knights and even obliterator CSM. Due to the inherent nature of the foundation of the army - tervigons - they are susceptible to armies such as space wolves Rune Priest-spam. Lastly, the bugs don't have the guns to deal with flyers. A flyer-heavy army may give it some problems - Necron Airforce, triple vendettas, triple heldrakes and even triple storm talons.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


NECRONS:

Shooting: B+
Tesla-destructors are arguably the best guns in the necron army, and a necron army that spams them may perhaps be one of the best necron builds in terms of shooting. Tesla-destructors are good against tanks, infantry and flyers. As a matter of fact, tesla-destructors are arguably the best anti-air weaponry. Even snap-shots don't slow it down in terms of damage output. The only problematic builds for teslas are heavy armor (AV 13-14), T8/9 monstrous creatures, pure hordes and massed 2+ save units. But in terms of all-around firepower, teslas are one of the best in the business with good accuracy and good damage output. For heavy armor, of course I've got 1 doom scythe to fill the niche. The only reason why necrons don't get an A is because of the 2 deathstars, who take away from their very good shooting.


Assault: B+
Necrons are not a pure assault army, but wraiths with attached Destroyer Lords are very good. They have the resiliency to deal with all but the most potent assault units (i.e. deathstars), the offense to defeat most units and Mindshackle Scarabs to deal with uber characters and dangerous monstrous creatures. More important than their martial prowess is their excellent mobility. The "threat" of their assault due to their mobility is a great tool they will utilize to control the board. Basically, it is this threat combined with with excellent mobility that forms the foundation for my philosophy of Positional Dominance.

Another more subtle characteristic of a hybrid wraithwing is this: they are a very good "anti-assault" army as well. In the assault phase, it's not necessarily who has the best assault units who is the superior army in assault. Rather, just as important is an army that can render enemy assault units ineffective. What good is an assault unit when it is bogged down by cheap tarpit units or can't get through cheap screening units or has nothing to assault? This is just as important a principle as being a good assault army. You cannot assault the necron troops because they are in flyer transports. Assault armies really have nothing to assault other than the very dangerous wraithstars themselves and the 2 annihilation barges. Necrons are good in assault because they have good hitting power while at the same time, leave little for the enemy to assault in return besides their 2 deathstars.


Mobility: A+
When it comes to mobility, necrons set the standard. There are maybe only 1 or 2 other armies that are as fast as the crons, and none have the advantage of necron night scythes. Honestly, I win about as much, maybe even more of my games in the Movement phase than in the Shooting or Assault phase. I call necrons the Masters of the Movement phase and that is really the secret to their success in many of my games. It is also because of their mobility which is why I consider them one of the best armies currently.


Resiliency: A+
Necrons are just so damn tough and durable it is silly sometimes. Wraiths with a Destroyer Lord are a really sturdy unit and I've got 2 of them. ResOrbs on those D-lords are potentially game changing. Those pieces of wargears have literally won me games that I should have otherwise lost had my D-lord not come back from the dead. Then you've got AV13 skimmers, the annihilation barges, who will almost always be getting cover. Finally, you've got the hard-to-kill flyers. There is no weak targets and no easy First Blood units, and there are some major redundancy in this army. This army is ultra-durable.


Intangibles: A
People who have never played against necrons before do not realize how tough and fast this army really is. And even those that have played against them oftentimes can't really do anything about it. The crons can absorb an astonishing amount of firepower and still deliver a devastating alpha-strike when their flyers come in (as long as the general plays his army with a little caution at first). And even if you wipe out those wraiths and think that you've got them on the ropes, they can still win it with their mobility. Yes, there has been numerous games where my wraiths were getting absolutely hammered and I still win the game easily. There are fast armies and then there are tough armies. The crons are so hard to play against because they are both a very fast and a very tough army.


Problem Matchups:
No army is perfect. Every army has a weakness. The less balanced ones have more. The more balanced ones have less. Because the crons are good in all 3 phases of the game - Movement, Shooting and Assault - they have fewer weaknesses than most. Yet, these weaknesses do exist. The lack of low-AP weaponry and power weapons means that they will have trouble against the more durable armies - 2+ save units, T5 units and FNP units. They will have problems against armies that have cheap tarpitting units like CSM zombies, massed ork boys, IG blob squads and tervigon-spawned termagants. The lack of any psychic defense means that they are susceptible to psychic heavy armies such as eldar, tyranids, space marines with Null Zone and space wolves with Jaws. Finally, armies with good anti-air firepower, especially some of the new Forgeworld units and another necron army, will give them problems if they can shoot down their flyers early.

I vote Necrons altough, the time for pure lists has stopped in my opinion.

Nids are very very good, but I think recent errata's on Helldrakes and Vector strike will do a lot to take out the big guys.

Nids

Gotta go with Nids. You already won a GT with Crons, doing it with a "bad army" would seal the deal. Seriously, I don't know why Nis are though of as weak. But because I'm taking Nids to a GT next month, I must vote the same way! Good luck to you.

I voted nids. Gotta love an underdog.

Tyranids. I mean no offence to Dakka's resident Necron players when I say this...but I'm sick of seeing Necrons win at everything (especially when they Wraith and Scythe their way to victory).

I voted Nids but I would personally tweak the list a bit. I love Gargs - do not get me wrong but I would rather have devilgaunts in 6ed and use at least one more pod. Are you rolling biomancy on your Doom? It is a gamble but when it pays ... Are you rolling on your Zoans?

Army analysis posted.

 Valek wrote:
I vote Necrons altough, the time for pure lists has stopped in my opinion.

Nids are very very good, but I think recent errata's on Helldrakes and Vector strike will do a lot to take out the big guys.

I voted 'crons for the heldrake factor. Given all their hype lately, they could be out in force. I think the 'nids will struggle to even have a fun game, let alone win, against an army that spams them.

That said, I think the 'nids could fare quite well if there are LOTS of necrons and you roll the right psychic powers.

 jy2 wrote:
Problem Matchups:
Tyranids are not as balanced as some of the other armies (like my necrons). This, combined with the inherent nature of the army, means that they are more likely to encounter problematic matchups in tournament play. Armies that ignore high toughness units will give them some trouble. Such armies include Dark Eldar and other tyranids. And although the bugs are really tough, they will still have problems against ultra-shooty armies such as Tau, shooty MSU-builds, dark eldar, missile-wolves, grey knights and even obliterator CSM. Due to the inherent nature of the foundation of the army - tervigons - they are susceptible to armies such as space wolves Rune Priest-spam. Lastly, the bugs don't have the guns to deal with flyers. A flyer-heavy army may give it some problems - Necron Airforce, triple vendettas, triple heldrakes and even triple storm talons.

Add in Eldar because they should all be taking runes.

I would say Nids, the necrons will be a auto win button in quite a few games as you know how to play them, give yourself a challenge bud.

Most importantly, imo, its the army you will have the most fun playing, both are top tier if used correctly so for me it would boil down to what I like playing with, I love psykers personaly and do like the extra level they add!

Eldar with triple nightwings are ugly now.

Thanks for all the comments so far. The army I was leaning more towards were my bugs and it seems like that will be the right choice according to my fellow dakkalites anyways. Now to get crackin' on finishing up my bugs (which, BTW, I've been doing anyways. )

 Scottiebhoy wrote:
Im going for Nids, you know the necrons can win but id be up for the challange of winning with nids, they are a strong tournie army now, maybe not as much as necrons but still strong!

Yeah, that is one of the stronger motivations for bringing my bugs. I will have fun no matter which army I bring, but I think tyranids will give me the bigger challenge. Besides, I've already done it with my crons (competed successfully with them). Time to give another army a chance.

 SabrX wrote:
You know me. I say roll a D2 and let the dice gods decide! Just remember to sacrifice a lot of kittens before you do. Those gods are fickle.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Take both and flip a coin the morning of. Some of us do that for things like Adepticon and other midwest events

Very interesting way to pick an army.

Maybe if I had as much confidence as Hulksmash, I'd do that. Ha, ha...j.k.

Yeah, it's practically decided what I'm going to bring. No need for the coin flip, although I may just bring 2 armies anyways in case there is time to play some games for fun.

 y0disisray wrote:
I will be attending the BAO as well and I honestly would be more afraid of your Nids then your Necrons. Despite this I would rather go against your Nids because they are a lot more fun to play against.

Well, come up and say "Hi". I'd love to put a face to the dakka name.

Actually, one of my perspectives for my battle report to is to get a little more personal. These are not just names that I am playing against, they are actual people. I'd like to take pictures of the people as well as their armies (assuming they don't mind). This report won't be just about me and my army, it'll be about the entire tournament gaming community (or a rather small portion of it ).

 Valek wrote:
I vote Necrons altough, the time for pure lists has stopped in my opinion.

Nids are very very good, but I think recent errata's on Helldrakes and Vector strike will do a lot to take out the big guys.

Yeah, triple heldrake-chaos may give me some problems. Triple-any flyers may give my bugs a problem, but I may get a small reprieve if not all of them come in at once.

 jifel wrote:
Gotta go with Nids. You already won a GT with Crons, doing it with a "bad army" would seal the deal. Seriously, I don't know why Nis are though of as weak. But because I'm taking Nids to a GT next month, I must vote the same way! Good luck to you.

Thanks! Good luck to you as well. Your bug list with triple-tervigons is very scary. I think you will do well with them.

 felixcat wrote:

I voted Nids but I would personally tweak the list a bit. I love Gargs - do not get me wrong but I would rather have devilgaunts in 6ed and use at least one more pod. Are you rolling biomancy on your Doom? It is a gamble but when it pays ... Are you rolling on your Zoans?

I won't be bring my devgants for a number of reasons:

1. Dropping the gargoyles will only give me 120pts to play around with. I can't get very many devgants with spore for that.

2. Devgants would require me to re-design my whole list, dropping a lot of support units that I would rather keep. Probably if the tournament was at a higher points levels, I could consider them (nah, I'd probably try to get a 3rd tervigon+gants as my first priority at higher points).

3. I don't actually own any of the devgant models.

The Doom's psychic powers will be more situational. I've been leaning more towards Telepathy for his powers but once in a while, I may try my luck on Biomancy. It'll all depend on what army I will be facing.

And yeah, in most cases I will be rolling for my zoans on Biomancy unless I go up against land raider-spam.

 DexKivuli wrote:

 Valek wrote:
I vote Necrons altough, the time for pure lists has stopped in my opinion.

Nids are very very good, but I think recent errata's on Helldrakes and Vector strike will do a lot to take out the big guys.

I voted 'crons for the heldrake factor. Given all their hype lately, they could be out in force. I think the 'nids will struggle to even have a fun game, let alone win, against an army that spams them.

That said, I think the 'nids could fare quite well if there are LOTS of necrons and you roll the right psychic powers.

Actually, both armies were designed to be able to handle heldrakes. It is mainly MEQ armies that will have more trouble with them. Nevertheless, heldrakes in numbers will hurt. So will triple-vendettas and triple-any flyers. Oh well....bring it on! This TAC army cares not.

 felixcat wrote:

Eldar with triple nightwings are ugly now.

I'm going to have to look up nightwings. No idea what they do.

I played in a doubles tournament last weekend with my bother. It was 1850 split (925 each) sharing a FOC. We assumed it would be casual. He took nids, one tervy, flyrant, mawloc only 2 HG... I took SW with no RP and a TWC lord and one unit of GH lol.... I am still laughing at the fact that despite our none optimal lists we placed 2nd and wen undefeated, 2 massacres and a major despite facing flyers and there being FW which none of us \know a thing about.

We faced mechaguard with a vedatta and vulture paired with DA game one and another guard DA duo game two with yet another vulture and an avenger, game three was dual CSM with a helturkey lol!!! Basically my point is that fliers are not necessary to win games (though they do make it tough lol).

By the way flyrant failed first ground check each game and died turn 1 games 1 and 3.... Game 2 he died turn two but he evaded the pesky avangers 6 of 8 wounds and then shot it down somehow lol.

BTW that avenger is less then a helturkey and has 2 auto canons, 2 las canons and a 6 or 7 shot S7 ap3 avenger bolst canon lol.... FW flyers are a bit under costed imo. It will be too soon before I face another vulture.

Good luck! and I hope you take lots of photos! Players too if they are willing

Right now, every general should expect (and prepare) to face Necrons in a tournament. They are currently the "army to beat," and you're either playing with them or against them. Scythewing remains a powerful build despite that fact, because in standard 40k it still has very few hard counters. The inclusion of FW changes things significantly. Players expecting to face Necrons (that is, everybody) now have good options to take apart a Flyer-based army with ease. Not to sell the Dlord/Wraith-stars short, but I think your army will be in a lot of trouble if you come up against anyone who can quickly take out three Night Scythes. Of course that's not going to be every army...it might not even be half, or a quarter, but in a GT one ugly loss can easily take you out of the running.

Nids have the potential to suffer from a bad matchup as well, but you also don't have people specifically building their lists to beat Nids. You will not be so lucky with Crons. As you said, Nids have been hugely underestimated for awhile now. I'm surprised more people haven't caught on. Just as well, since (as you also said), this will only work to your advantage.

Long story short: people are gunning for Necrons at every event, but at BAO they'll really have the tools to do it. If you feel confident in your Tyranids, I feel they will absolutely be a stronger choice.

Well, I wouldn't be too worried about FW units since they are rather expensive for what you get. Recently, I faced a FW Dread in a GK army vs my Wraithwing in an RTT. Scary stats but not so scary at the battle field.

Was it a Contemptor? Those gave my Necrons fits...Av13 with two TL/Intercepting/Skyfiring-Lascannons. Yeesh. I think there's an Assault Cannon option that is also pretty spooky-scary. Anyway, I'd be more worried about Guard Blobs and Sabre Defense Platforms.

 whigwam wrote:
Was it a Contemptor? Those gave my Necrons fits...Av13 with two TL/Intercepting/Skyfiring-Lascannons. Yeesh. I think there's an Assault Cannon option that is also pretty spooky-scary. Anyway, I'd be more worried about Guard Blobs and Sabre Defense Platforms.

Yeah, it was a Contemptor with an assault cannon. Short ranged and so rather easy to avoid with Scythes. At the end, dead by stripping off hull points via tesla. As far as I remember AV 13 at the front, but AV 12 on the sides.