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Well there is a GT in my area next month, let's see what kind of trouble I can get into there with some termies. Can't guarantee I'll run 10 man squads, but I foresee at least one DW squad showing up. I do so love my non-standard missile launchers and the CML is groovy

I think 1 squad can work, I still think its a bit of a hindrance or handicap. But I think a TEQ heavy army would have a very difficult time. Too many blobs everywhere.

On that we certainly agree. Pure Deathwing armies should be reserved for campaign missions or custom boarding missions on the open field they're just all kinds of vulnerable.

I find that once my termies hit the board i get alot of fire power which in turn makes them die fairly fast, but at the same time they suck up enough firepower and attention that i can usually and effectively take out what needs to go with the rest of my army.
This includes guard, actually especially them. they all turn to shoot the termies but when they do the rest of my whole army rolls up on em and wipes them by the mass.
So sure things kill termies, but at what cost?

Now i assume all the guard players will begin their rage, but shouldnt because this isnt about the best army its about the players and how they use what they have. We can argue stats all day but the game does require some skill and luck, in the end that is what wins.

These are the same problems termies have had forever. They have never been competitive. They have always been fun.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
These are the same problems termies have had forever. They have never been competitive. They have always been fun.

I disagree with this a little. In 5th you saw less horde-style lists and more mech-heavy ones. I played BT with 3 squads of Termies and double CML with Tank Hunters in each. It worked quite well actually. Deathwing were cheaper as well and more useful. But with the "meta" shifting to predominantly infantry there has also been an increase in anti-infantry firepower. This coupled with a price increase for DW (the most popular TEQ army) has led to their downfall, IMO.

LValx wrote:
I can think of alternative lists just fine. Unfortunately terminators are not good in this edition. I don't have some sort of deep-seated hatred towards them, my first army was Deathwing and I played BTs in 5th with lots of termies. The problem is in 6th they simply do not work, IMO, at least. Prove me wrong and maybe ill change my tune.

BT still have a metric crapton of shooting on their Terminators due to having 2 heavies with just 5.

I think the thing you're missing with Terminators is that they pretty much force MEQ to stay away from them and kill them with shooting; if you get too close with Tactical Squads (or equivalent) you're going to take a Power Fist to the face. You're comparing Terminator shooting with other shooting units without considering the fact that Terminators are a dual-purpouse unit, of course the other shooting units are going to be better.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LValx wrote:
I can think of alternative lists just fine. Unfortunately terminators are not good in this edition. I don't have some sort of deep-seated hatred towards them, my first army was Deathwing and I played BTs in 5th with lots of termies. The problem is in 6th they simply do not work, IMO, at least. Prove me wrong and maybe ill change my tune.

BT still have a metric crapton of shooting on their Terminators due to having 2 heavies with just 5.

I think the thing you're missing with Terminators is that they pretty much force MEQ to stay away from them and kill them with shooting; if you get too close with Tactical Squads (or equivalent) you're going to take a Power Fist to the face. You're comparing Terminator shooting with other shooting units without considering the fact that Terminators are a dual-purpouse unit, of course the other shooting units are going to be better.

There is a fair point made here. People commonly compare Terms in shear weight of fire versus resiliency against either a pure shooty unit or a Horde. Terms have to be used pretty aggressively to be effective as if you're not getting those power fists working then you are over paying for 2+ saves and glorified bolters.

I also think that, hordes in particular, are a big reason whey people really need to start looking at both Heavy Flamers and Knights more closely, and leave the anti tank weapons to your support units. Another unit can effectively handle vehicles, getting swamped is a costly detriment to the Terms. They don't need help against MEq once they get close, but if they are going to have a prayer against Hordes they real need to cut down there numbers with the Heavy Flamer first. Knights are just straight up designed for taking down Hordes. Bunch up on a flank and pull them into combat piecemeal, you'll do more casualties per assault phase then they can get through your T5 and 2+, especially if they are forced to spread out to mitigate template damage and there fore you only have to fight a chunk at a time with only a 3" pile in.

Deathwing hasn't really changed in price overal. The terminator squads are the same price, belial is a bit more expensive but has better rules and heavy weapons are cheaper. Anti-horde duty is done with deathwing command squads with a banner and lightning claws. Sorted

My termies are:
2+/3++ and hit 3 times at STR8
2+/5++ and hit 4 times at STR4 with rerolls.
or
2+/5++ and hit 3 times at STR8 while shooting.

That is why people are scared of them.

It's great that you think they "die fast", but almost everything else dies faster.

BT heavy weapons no longer do as much damage is what i'm noticing. 2-3 Terminators don't much scare folks in CC, their attack numbers are pretty measily. A unit like SW would be better off charging you because on the charge they are likely to kill 2 Terminators between their shots and attacks. And a SW army can easily field 60 MEQ and 50+ Guard at 1850. Very tough for termies to deal with. Especially because you can screen marines with guardsmen who really dont fear overpriced fists on models that cant sweep.
I think the knights aren't so hot either, but Shadar tends to gravitate towards units others don't much care for.
The best use of a terminator unit is probably small squads of TH/SS for counter attack. I just happen to think they pale in comparison to a lot of other options in the game that serve the same purpose but do it better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh and SW WG terms attached to GH, that is pretty magical.

LValx wrote:
BT heavy weapons no longer do as much damage is what i'm noticing. 2-3 Terminators don't much scare folks in CC, their attack numbers are pretty measily. A unit like SW would be better off charging you because on the charge they are likely to kill 2 Terminators between their shots and attacks. And a SW army can easily field 60 MEQ and 50+ Guard at 1850. Very tough for termies to deal with. Especially because you can screen marines with guardsmen who really dont fear overpriced fists on models that cant sweep.
I think the knights aren't so hot either, but Shadar tends to gravitate towards units others don't much care for.
The best use of a terminator unit is probably small squads of TH/SS for counter attack. I just happen to think they pale in comparison to a lot of other options in the game that serve the same purpose but do it better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh and SW WG terms attached to GH, that is pretty magical.

Sure, Templar CML Terminators aren't as good anymore. Double Assault Cannon, on the other hand, pumps out a lot of shots. And, again, sure, a completely unwounded Grey Hunter squad that reaches the Terminators and charges them will probably eventually kill them. What happens if the Terminators get the charge? What happens when we don't compare them to the most undercosted MEQ choice in the game? "Normal" Tacticals, Assault Marines, Strike Squads and even Purifiers will take a considerable beating if they get close. In the case of the GK units they'll probably hang back and shoot, because that's what they do better, but they can't afford to get close until the Terminators are dead.

Yeah, tacticals may have some issues but even with a vanilla list, you shouldnt much fear them. Fail ld, fall back and shoot more. BA shouldn't due to higher mobility. GK laugh at termies because their 24" shooting is absurd. Its also unlikely that your terminators don't get shot for a few turns before they get the charge. Small rules changes like being able to move and fire at 24" made it easier to deal with termies. By taking termies you'll often be way too outnumbered. It just doesnt seem worth it. Even dual assault cannons will do very little to guardsmen or orks. Or a horde of power armored guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2A base is a bummer, way too many times playing against termies or with them, i've been left totally unimpressed by their limited CC ability. I'd much, much rather have Wraiths or Spawn. MANz in a trukk are great too. Daemons seem to have been hit with the nerf bat but i'd imagine they will have some better CC based options too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me, 35 pts for a TH/SS is a very fair deal. That's what i'd like to see. With DA tacs being so cheap, GH being so cheap and Strike marines being so cheap. TEQs really should have seen a points reduction.

I love playing my gk paladin list, ok not really termies but close enough. I find that a lot of luck comes into how well you do. I know mathhammer says 6 shots to kill a termie etc. However some games I fail every save and loose by turn 3, other games I make dont roll a single 1 for armour and win quite well. The thing is you need to add a lot of supporting units to help them out for example long range shooting and cheap objective holding units.

I know I will never win a tournie, I have necrons for that. But as long as I have fun and place top half then I say good job. Yes they are not strong but they are far from bad.

LValx wrote:
And a SW army can easily field 60 MEQ and 50+ Guard at 1850. Very tough for termies to deal with.

Actually, Space Wolves field Space Marines, not MEQs

Also, Paladins ARE termies...

No, they are not competitive in any solo build. Are they incredibly fun? Yes, because they are one wound models with a 2+ save, so either you'll die horribly or pwn faces. They have no middle ground, really.

Not all people play for competitive though...

So whats the deal with termies?

They are some really cool looking models that you can make a semi decent list with for your flgs/beer&pretzel games. No they will never be strong enough to win major tournaments (so far) but really there is a lot more to this hobby then that. I love playing draigowing and after the steep learning curve I like to think I play it well. Taking them to NZ's biggest tournament in 2 weeks so lets see how strong they really are

Also Asmodi: how is a space marine not a MEQ?

I don't know about all terminator armies, but I love my tactical terminator squad. They are always useful. They are not amazing at shooting, but decent, and can fire effectively while advancing. And in close combat they rip apart most units, not to mention vehicles. And most importantly they force the enemy to react, it is not an unit that can just be ignored. They do not win battles by themselves, but a single unit can quite effectively disrupt enemy's lines.

Suprised no one has brought up CSM Terminators. I ran termi-cide in 5th and still do so in 6th to good effect. Deepstriking 3 combi-melta wielding terminators with various power weapons for 110 points is amazing. The 5 point bump didn't kill it either because I believe so much was gained with the rules changes. Now, I don't have to fear the dummy with a powersword in the back field. The deep strike table is totally forgiving. Meltaguns melt even more armor-value face (at least it feels that way, I know the chart changed, but 50% chance to explode is awesome!).
Terminators aren't dead... just the loyalist ones.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


What happens when we don't compare them to the most undercosted MEQ choice in the game? "Normal" Tacticals, Assault Marines, Strike Squads and even Purifiers will take a considerable beating if they get close. In the case of the GK units they'll probably hang back and shoot, because that's what they do better, but they can't afford to get close until the Terminators are dead.

truth

 tuiman wrote:
Not all people play for competitive though...

So whats the deal with termies?

They are some really cool looking models that you can make a semi decent list with for your flgs/beer&pretzel games. No they will never be strong enough to win major tournaments (so far) but really there is a lot more to this hobby then that. I love playing draigowing and after the steep learning curve I like to think I play it well. Taking them to NZ's biggest tournament in 2 weeks so lets see how strong they really are

Also Asmodi: how is a space marine not a MEQ?

MEQ=Marine Equivalent
Space Marine = Space Marine

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Not all people play for competitive though...

So whats the deal with termies?

They are some really cool looking models that you can make a semi decent list with for your flgs/beer&pretzel games. No they will never be strong enough to win major tournaments (so far) but really there is a lot more to this hobby then that. I love playing draigowing and after the steep learning curve I like to think I play it well. Taking them to NZ's biggest tournament in 2 weeks so lets see how strong they really are

Also Asmodi: how is a space marine not a MEQ?

MEQ=Marine Equivalent
Space Marine = Space Marine

MEQ=Anything with a marine statline
Space Marine=Subset of MEQ

i hate one of my freinds termies with TH/SS my ork are just torn apart and i dont have enough ap2 guns wich are accurate so they march up asault my nobz with my warboss and i lose my amazing cc squad due to the fact that he has al theese BT rules wich means he rerolls everything and my gagilion attacks barely hurt them
(may have to do with my rubbish rolling skills gork and mork frown upon me)
he also chalenges my warboss and he kills him WTH (though i normaly take him with me)

:(

Chancetragedy wrote:

Although I have seen some silly rolls with terminators making every single save and soaking an entire armies worth of shooting. Which makes them tempting, i guess just not that tempting for me.

I agree with this 1000%. Termies usually seem to work a lot better against me than they do for me. Maybe it's just my bias perception but I'd rather have more units on the table to get averages working more reliably in my favor.

 waaagh blitz wrote:
i hate one of my freinds termies with TH/SS my ork are just torn apart and i dont have enough ap2 guns wich are accurate so they march up asault my nobz with my warboss and i lose my amazing cc squad due to the fact that he has al theese BT rules wich means he rerolls everything and my gagilion attacks barely hurt them
(may have to do with my rubbish rolling skills gork and mork frown upon me)
he also chalenges my warboss and he kills him WTH (though i normaly take him with me)

I hate to tell you, but if you're getting charged by TH/SS Terminators on foot you're doing it wrong. Your friend also only gets reroll to hit if he has a Chaplain and is charging, his Vow that used to give Preferred Enemy has been errata'd. The proper Ork counter to TH/SS Terminators is either Shoota Boyz or Slugga Boyz. Drown them in saves and they'll die.

The only time Termies have troubled me as CSM is when they deep strike next to my Havocs. Since only the champ can Overwatch, they usually get crushed that turn if not when they get into melee.