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2013/03/20 00:49:47
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Nope, they're there. Stealthily disguised as 'ablutions' and 'devotions'.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/03/20 00:58:24
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
I... can't help but think that some part of Monty Python made it into the design of 40K. Perhaps not the Castle Anthrax and the Sisters of Battle.... though, maybe...
Their beacon is, after all, grail-shaped.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/03/20 01:01:29
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Well to be fair it was meant to be a parody, not be taken seriously.
Despite its best efforts, 40k IS meant to be taken seriously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 01:15:02
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 01:16:12
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Unlike this thread, finally. It's good that we can all smile at it at last. ^^;
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/03/20 01:21:53
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Mainly because there was just one woman, Carol Cleveland, involved with Monty Python. All of the other women who ever appear on-camera are cast *specifically* because they were considered sexually attractive.
.... though, yes, that is rather sexist, overtly so. Especially considering that one of the female characters is simply named, in the script, as "Nude Woman". She does nothing in the sketch but stand behind a counter, naked, and smile.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/03/20 01:28:53
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Yeah, Monty Python was good and funny, but it did have its problems. Hell I think they even went in blackface a few times, heh.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 01:31:23
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
We can probably chalk that up to being a product of their time, though.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/03/20 01:34:38
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
There is that, yes. I mean, historically, Western society has been incredibly sexist for a very long time now. It's only relatively recently that we've begun taking steps to rectify that.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/03/20 01:34:39
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Psienesis wrote: Mainly because there was just one woman, Carol Cleveland, involved with Monty Python. All of the other women who ever appear on-camera are cast *specifically* because they were considered sexually attractive.
.... though, yes, that is rather sexist, overtly so. Especially considering that one of the female characters is simply named, in the script, as "Nude Woman". She does nothing in the sketch but stand behind a counter, naked, and smile.
She was referred to as Carol Cleavage by other members of the group.
Psienesis wrote: There is that, yes. I mean, historically, Western society has been incredibly sexist for a very long time now. It's only relatively recently that we've begun taking steps to rectify that.
That's something to temperate, as it tends to be a half truth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 01:42:17
2013/03/20 01:43:12
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
In what way has it not been "fully true"? I'm not saying that "every individual of Western society has been entirely sexist their entire lives in everything they've ever done", because social trends and mores are not decided by individuals but by masses.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/03/20 01:48:21
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Western societies have been shaped mostly by Christianity. And Mary is the second most important figure of that religion. While I'm not denying that sexism was always present, our societies were meant to recognize both sex as equals.
2013/03/20 01:54:32
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Serevor wrote: Western societies have been shaped mostly by Christianity. And Mary is the second most important figure of that religion. While I'm not denying that sexism was always present, our societies were meant to recognize both sex as equals.
..Not really. Take this verse from one of Paul's letters in the NT.
1 Corinthians 11:7 "A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God."
I should say however this verse is noted to scholars to probably be a later interpolation, that is to say a later addition, but it did find its way into Christian canon and thus has been part of Christian teachings for a millennium and a half. Typically modern Christians ignore this passage or shellac it down in a thorough coating of "Christian apologetics."
I actually cannot find a competing claim in the Bible to support the claim of gender equality, by contrast.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2013/03/20 01:58:30
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
No, Mary is the second-most important figure to Catholicism, and despite her importance, women are still forbidden to hold office in the Church. To the Protestants? She's a minor character that happens to give birth to the Messiah. She has no other role or function.
However, that has nothing to do with the fact that, in the United States, it was perfectly legal for a man to beat his wife well into the 20th century, as in, as late as the 1950s. Women *still* earn less than men *for doing the exact same job* in many industries in the US. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion than men, because there is a fear that they will decide to have children and thus be distracted from the business (though men who father children are not held in the same disregard). Women are constantly objectified by our mass media and popular culture, and though this is beginning to stabilize somewhat (fair is fair, after all), it is still grossly out of balance. Our societies continue to value a woman by how good she looks, regardless of her contributions, or to even ignore her completely because she's female.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/03/20 02:01:59
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Thank God I can.
Ephesian 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
Ephesian 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Ephesian 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
EDIT :
However, that has nothing to do with the fact that, in the United States, it was perfectly legal for a man to beat his wife well into the 20th century, as in, as late as the 1950s. Women *still* earn less than men *for doing the exact same job* in many industries in the US. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion than men, because there is a fear that they will decide to have children and thus be distracted from the business (though men who father children are not held in the same disregard). Women are constantly objectified by our mass media and popular culture, and though this is beginning to stabilize somewhat (fair is fair, after all), it is still grossly out of balance. Our societies continue to value a woman by how good she looks, regardless of her contributions, or to even ignore her completely because she's female.
Not denying that at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 02:03:05
2013/03/20 02:09:00
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Serevor wrote: Western societies have been shaped mostly by Christianity. And Mary is the second most important figure of that religion.
My mind.
She is blown.
You mean, all these times that people have use the bible to attempt to try to tell us women to get back in the kitchen didn't actually exist?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 02:13:13
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Mary is the progenitor of the Madonna-Whore complex. As all women who are not completely chaste virgins until death are inferior to her, all women must be whores.
Catholicism (and Christianity in general) have rarely actually taught a belief that resembles Christ's message. It was used to brainwash the illiterate masses into doing whatever political nonsense the Vatican or various governments desired. Even many Christian apologists recognize this...I consider myself one to an extent, I will never defend the Church, but I believe that Jesus' teachings were worthwhile and have philosophical and spiritual value despite the misues and abuse of his name.
Well, Jesus was basically the Jewish equivalent of Bill and Ted until his best mates wrote a book about him that made him out to be some kind of minor deity.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/03/20 04:37:37
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
And these weren't pathetic light plastic tables oh no, they were heavy fething STONE tables.
Jesus was ripped.
[/badjokes]
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 04:42:12
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well, Jesus was basically the Jewish equivalent of Bill and Ted until his best mates wrote a book about him that made him out to be some kind of minor deity.
Assuming he even existed and isn't merely a amalgamation of multiple teachers.
Although really, I always thought he'd look more like this;
Spoiler:
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/03/20 05:16:53
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well, Jesus was basically the Jewish equivalent of Bill and Ted until his best mates wrote a book about him that made him out to be some kind of minor deity.
No Jesus was Jim Caviezel - in my mind he was even a bit blonder...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amaya wrote: Mary is the progenitor of the Madonna-Whore complex. As all women who are not completely chaste virgins until death are inferior to her, all women must be whores.
Catholicism (and Christianity in general) have rarely actually taught a belief that resembles Christ's message. It was used to brainwash the illiterate masses into doing whatever political nonsense the Vatican or various governments desired. Even many Christian apologists recognize this...I consider myself one to an extent, I will never defend the Church, but I believe that Jesus' teachings were worthwhile and have philosophical and spiritual value despite the misues and abuse of his name.
like me...I pick all the good stuff from religions and ignore the bad....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: He was getting drunk and flipping over tables.
And these weren't pathetic light plastic tables oh no, they were heavy fething STONE tables.
Jesus was ripped.
[/badjokes]
Excuse me, who turned the water into wine?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 05:20:52
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2013/03/20 05:38:54
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Psienesis wrote: The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
I don't know if we should think real life words apply here. The Ciaphas Cain series shows otherwise. *shrug* One can say that they should all be nuns but some among them do otherwise. Although I seriously doubt them being nuns seeing as we have the Sister Famulous and the fact that they deal with the nobility and even arrange secret liasons for their charges. Its possible that they have had to sleep with nobles so as to do their jobs.
*shrug*
The Ciaphas Cain series is also a send-up of the grimdarkness of the rest of the setting. It's an intentional parody/satire done as an in-universe series.
Yeah I know. Still its a part of the fluff until GW says otherwise.
Also as to why they probably take vows of chastity and celibacy? Because Vandire used them as sex-slaves, and during his reign they allowed him to nearly tear the God-Emperor's Imperium asunder. They will not let themselves be distracted from their sacred duties again.
uh... you have yet to show an actual vow of chastity. Just the word cleave brings this up:
merriam webster wrote:
1 cleave
intransitive verb \ˈklēv\
cleaved or clove also clave cleavedcleav·ing
Definition of CLEAVE
: to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly
So we are at something of an impasse for this one. I have already posted rationalizations above.
And with your definition, I would pose that, if a Sister is emotionally involved with another person, male or female, then she cannot "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", then, can she?
One can be emotionally involved with someone and yet still be loyal to a higher cause or leader, you know.
The thing is the SOB's aren't nuns as far as I see it. Lexicanum describes them as such:
The Adepta Sororitas (also known as "the Sisterhood" or "Daughters of the Emperor") are an all-female subdivision of the religious organisation known as the Ecclesiarchy or Ministorum. The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organisation of the Adeptus Terra.
Also we have the Order Famulous who deal with the nobility and even encourage liasons outside of marriage and gak if need to be done.
I already have rationalizations for it. Although like, Furyou Miko said earlier, can I have reference pages or quotes and such?
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2013/03/20 08:13:05
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
They aren't explicitly Nuns in Space- as Melissia's said, their militant side is very Joan of Arc'ish.
But the religious part of them is indeed very nun'ish in inspiration, just like how the Templars are based off of... the Knights Templar during the holy crusade.
Amaya wrote: I would personally prefer the comfort of TDA and perhaps a powerful cannon of some sort so that I may engage my enemies from a great distance instead of relying solely on a constant adredeline rush and zealous faith.
Stop beating yourself up about it. No one's perfect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 08:14:11
2013/03/20 08:58:01
Subject: Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Psienesis wrote: Women *still* earn less than men *for doing the exact same job* in many industries in the US.
No, they don't. That's deceptive statistics at its worst: the average income is 75%, yes, but restricting it to any given job, for a given level of experience, produces a number that wavers a few percent above or below even. Educated women gravitate disproportionately towards the worst paid fields and tend to take long breaks in the middle to raise children, and uneducated women are either unwilling or unable to do the higher paying heavy manual labor jobs, being stuck with low paying service industry positions.
.... though, yes, that is rather sexist, overtly so. Especially considering that one of the female characters is simply named, in the script, as "Nude Woman". She does nothing in the sketch but stand behind a counter, naked, and smile.
You realize that's how bit parts are named in scripts, right? A vague descriptor with their gender often thrown in somewhere.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 09:04:06
2013/03/20 11:25:47
Subject: Re:Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.
Furyou Miko wrote:It isn't stated anywhere. It's just assumed because they're nuns.
Well, I would say it is a bit more explicit than this... it's actually a huge theme that extends throughout Sisters fluff all the way back to their very first appearance in the original Rogue Trader rulebook:
"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement." - 1E Rulebook
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline, and brook no distraction from their studies." - 2E C:SoB
"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering." - 3E Rulebook (Canoness dialogue, amongst SoB fans also known as the "barbed pen story")
"Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure. There is only prayer and war." - WD #211
BlaxicanX wrote:I'm pretty sure that Sisters Repentia are basically sisters that accidentally whipped themselves only 98 times in the morning instead of the required 99, or forgot to pray to the God-Emprah before eating your vegan-burger.
Yeah, something like that is how I understood it as well. They have very extreme rules and regulations; the Liber Sororitas in WD #293 listed a few of them.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yeah I know. Still its a part of the fluff until GW says otherwise.
"On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books." - Gav Thorpe
Furyou Miko wrote:I don't recall the 'cleave only to the God-emperor' line, but it is nearly midnight. Could you pass us a page reference for the tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies please?
Allow me - I believe this line comes from one of the Dark Heresy books ... the Inquisitor's Handbook, I think? It had a couple such phrases for each level of its Sororitas career (which I still deem superior to the BoM version).
Not that you'd necessarily have to miss out on your "lesbian bondage fantasies", mind you.
"Hair-shirts! Naked vigils on cold stone floors! The scourge of prayer and endless mortifications of the flesh! Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?" - 3E Rulebook (Canoness dialogue, amongst SoB fans also known as the "barbed pen story")
I'll refrain from posting any Repentia+Mistress rule 34, though. ;p
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
What have I done?!
I'm my own worst enemy in this war against bad Sisters fluff, aren't I?
I guess it can't be helped then...
