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How would you run a unit of Warp Talons?

Would you run a couple small units or a large unit?

What mark would you take? (If any)

If you wouldn't use them, what other FA option would be worth the points?


I think they have a cool design behind the concept, but the limit of not being able to assault after deepstriking is a deal breaker for me. However, the idea of essentially a CC kind of Thousand Son (if you take MoT) would seem really cool and powerful.

First off, no I wouldn't raptors are better and cheaper with grenades and the ability to shoot. Plus if you put the Icon of Excess on them they have just about the same survivabilty as Warp Talons. Although all those Lightning Claws do look nice

If I did take them though I would take a couple of smaller units of Warp Talons, that would hopefully deepstrike in the same turn so the enemy couldn't focus fire on them.

I'd run with either a mark of Slaanesh or Khorne to make sure whatever I hit that it died. And without a doubt I would put Veterans of the Long War on them

I would run them... over with a truck.

But if you really have to, 5-man with MoS.

Talons compete with Possessed for the award of awesome models, trash rules.

Both are expensive assault units without assault grenades, and Talons aren't even Fearless.

The best they can hope for is shredding marines out of cover.
I suppose they could combat bikers as shred balances out T5.

I'd run them with MoT. Worked pretty well against my buddy's Tau.

its such a shame because the WT look so great but they are so terrible.

No way I would take them over raptors with 2x MG even then I'd rather have my turkey and spawn

 minigun762 wrote:
Talons compete with Possessed for the award of awesome models, trash rules.

Both are expensive assault units without assault grenades, and Talons aren't even Fearless.

The best they can hope for is shredding marines out of cover.
I suppose they could combat bikers as shred balances out T5.

Mutilators are in the running too.

O wait they have trash models. Nevermind


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I'd run them with MoT. Worked pretty well against my buddy's Tau.

Tau player without fire warriors? not possible...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TyRaide wrote:
I would run them... over with a truck.

But if you really have to, 5-man with MoS.

yes, MoN and MoT are too expensive on them. MoK makes them kill things even faster(they already kill things too fast)
MoS helps them kill things before they strike if and only if they are out of cover. Making them more of a glass cannon, but a better one.

I'd run them with the Mark of Nurgle, since you're going to be swinging I1 Lightning Claws, every bit that reduces your casualties from non-Unwieldy weapons is a big plus.

DrDeath wrote:
First off, no I wouldn't, BIKES are better and cheaper with grenades and the ability to shoot. Plus if you put the Icon of Excess on them they ARE MORE survivable than Warp Talons. Although all those Lightning Claws do look nice

Bikes are better than even the helturkey.

 Exergy wrote:

DrDeath wrote:
First off, no I wouldn't, BIKES are better and cheaper with grenades and the ability to shoot. Plus if you put the Icon of Excess on them they ARE MORE survivable than Warp Talons. Although all those Lightning Claws do look nice

Bikes are better than even the helturkey.

Bikes are the third best CSM Fast Attack choice, behind Spawn (Nurgle only, so they can't get doubled out) and Helldrakes. They were good before, but removing and sort of firing arc restrictions put them over the top.At SVDM, I think I saw one CSM list that didn't have at least one drake, most had two, and one had 3. I'd imagine the numbers from Indy Open, Colonial, and BAO will match that, with the top tables seeing more rather than less.

This is what I would do with warp tallons: I would kitbash them into other units because they look REALLY amasing!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: Why do they not have greandes?

I want to like warp talons.

Unfortunately....
Bikes are awesome (MoN bikes are even better than awesome)
Hellchicken is awesome
Spawns are awesome
Raptors are not that awesome, still vastly better than warp talons (they can take 2 specials per squad, making them prime candidates for DS...)

If you want to run warp talons, run them as count as raptors you can DS behind enemy vehicules.

Oh wait, in the WT box, you have all the raptor parts. If you fancy the models all that much, give your raptors the tiny wings, the clawed feet,and build your aspiring champ with DLC.
Trick done.

I would either run them as nurgle marked in 5 man squads, or tzeench marked in 5 man squads, normally 2 5 mans if I'm taking them.

This is simply for taking advantage of the option of blind, which is devastating if it works.

Using these works great when using a melee centric force, since blind royally screws over the enemies attempts to kill you.

Playing with Warp Talons is like playing Chaos Roulette.

GW took the Codex: CSM to new levels of randomness with boons, and challenges, and the general wonkiness of 6th Ed. A lot of what they do is basically a high-stakes gamble. When Chaos wins now, they will big, but they tend to fail big just as much.

I do use Warp Talons... two squads of 5 with MoN, as well as 2 squads of Termis with a range of weapons (magnetized). A good portion of my game plan is based around my Daemon Prince and Typhus. I typically start the game with those two models, and 2 5-mam squads of plague marines on the table, with either one or two squads of zombies, depending on the point value of the game.

I give my DP the Dimensional Key, which is wonderful .. IF IT WORKS. If you can snatch a melee kill in turn 2, it's game over for your enemy. Once the key activates, your own units arriving from deepstrike, DO NOT Scatter... which makes it a simple matter of positioning the Terminators and WT in such a place that all models fleeing from one, fall back into the other and are instantly destroyed.

The WT are basically insurance against being shot at during DS, and the fact that they hold their own in cc is just icing on the cake. Anything else I put in that army is situational. Sometimes a Helldrake, sometimes a zombie horde... sometimes I use Defiler Spam.... but the core of the tactic is still the gamble on getting the key to activate.

Watch a few games with them, they never seem to get anywhere. On the other hand they do look like they would make amazing base models to convert into chosen.

If you do run them, be careful with how you deploy them as they are very vulnerable to high volume of fire. I watched 7 charge some boys in cover and non of them got to hit. Overwatch + i1 for cover charge landed them all dead.

My thoughts:

A reasonably sized unit (7 or so) with mark of Tzeentch to improve the invulnerable save is ok.

BUT you'd need to add a lord with jump pack.

Fixes problem number 1 of warp talons having no grenades, and problem number 2 of not being fearless. Problem number 3 of Warpflame strike being too risky to use just isn't fixable, so why not ignore deep striking entirely? They have jump packs, let them soar like eagles.

340 for 7 talons with MoT and a basic lord with a jump pack. Reasonably survivable, good against 3+ save or higher but useless against Terminator saves unless you give the lord a power fist or axe.

Mind you, that makes them points wise exactly the same as two heldrakes or 16 basic bikes. But a hell of a lot cheaper in real world currency.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
My thoughts:

A reasonably sized unit (7 or so) with mark of Tzeentch to improve the invulnerable save is ok.

BUT you'd need to add a lord with jump pack.

Fixes problem number 1 of warp talons having no grenades, and problem number 2 of not being fearless. Problem number 3 of Warpflame strike being too risky to use just isn't fixable, so why not ignore deep striking entirely? They have jump packs, let them soar like eagles.

340 for 7 talons with MoT and a basic lord with a jump pack. Reasonably survivable, good against 3+ save or higher but useless against Terminator saves unless you give the lord a power fist or axe.

Mind you, that makes them points wise exactly the same as two heldrakes or 16 basic bikes. But a hell of a lot cheaper in real world currency.

but they are expensive, and die like a 13 point CSM. Giving them MoT makes them even more expensive, and they die just as easily as a 13 point CSM

giving the lord grenades does not help his squadmates. So now you are just using the warptalons as a bus to get a lord into combat. Something they are horrible at.

Are you sure that the entire squad doesn't get grenades? I thought that giving an IC grenades, who then joins a unit gives the full unit grenades, just like fearless

How do they die like a 13pt CSM? Do you mean under weight of fire and taking their normal 3+? Then yes, I agree they die like a 13 point CSM. So does everything with a 3+ save. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Also I don't have the BRB on me but I thought an IC having grenades absolutely does affect his squadmates.

They may die to small arms like basic CSMs but they will out assault them as well.
Not saying they aren't bad but I'm being fair.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
How do they die like a 13pt CSM? Do you mean under weight of fire and taking their normal 3+? Then yes, I agree they die like a 13 point CSM. So does everything with a 3+ save. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Also I don't have the BRB on me but I thought an IC having grenades absolutely does affect his squadmates.

An IC would be great way to fix that, thought it is a shame Chaos Lords don't have access to an artificer armor equivalent.

 Condas wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
How do they die like a 13pt CSM? Do you mean under weight of fire and taking their normal 3+? Then yes, I agree they die like a 13 point CSM. So does everything with a 3+ save. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Also I don't have the BRB on me but I thought an IC having grenades absolutely does affect his squadmates.

An IC would be great way to fix that, thought it is a shame Chaos Lords don't have access to an artificer armor equivalent.

Eh, I'm surprised they didn't make Fleshmetal a purchasable option

En Excelsis wrote:
Playing with Warp Talons is like playing Chaos Roulette.

GW took the Codex: CSM to new levels of randomness with boons, and challenges, and the general wonkiness of 6th Ed. A lot of what they do is basically a high-stakes gamble. When Chaos wins now, they will big, but they tend to fail big just as much.

I do use Warp Talons... two squads of 5 with MoN, as well as 2 squads of Termis with a range of weapons (magnetized). A good portion of my game plan is based around my Daemon Prince and Typhus. I typically start the game with those two models, and 2 5-mam squads of plague marines on the table, with either one or two squads of zombies, depending on the point value of the game.

I give my DP the Dimensional Key, which is wonderful .. IF IT WORKS. If you can snatch a melee kill in turn 2, it's game over for your enemy. Once the key activates, your own units arriving from deepstrike, DO NOT Scatter... which makes it a simple matter of positioning the Terminators and WT in such a place that all models fleeing from one, fall back into the other and are instantly destroyed.

The WT are basically insurance against being shot at during DS, and the fact that they hold their own in cc is just icing on the cake. Anything else I put in that army is situational. Sometimes a Helldrake, sometimes a zombie horde... sometimes I use Defiler Spam.... but the core of the tactic is still the gamble on getting the key to activate.

+1 To this guy and Juraigamer for actually answering the OPs question instead of lamenting and rehashing the same old tired tripe about what WT can't do...

A couple silly things I see mentioned. They are both TOO Punchy, and suck in CC because they don't have grenades....

Let's tackle the not having grenades makes them suck first. It's a myth. Plain and simple. 99% of the things that would be sitting in cover (and not trying to assault themselves) in the first place, aren't going to matter if you have to strike last. A full 10 Tactical Marines kills a whooping 1.44 WTs before they can strike (unmarked, obviously MoN would be less). You're remaining 3 or 4 Warp Talons will then proceed to curb stop the Tacticals.

Kabalite Warriors have I5, raise your hand if you've ever thought twice about assaulting Kabs with an I4 or lower CC model?

The other remaining misconception is largely because people tend to be really really bad at the DS mechanic. Primarily because they are way too conservative. You need to be aggressive with these guys. They are high risk, high reward. You land your blind strike in the middle of 3 or 4 units, and they have already done there job. That's why, personally, I think 2x5 is the way to run them. Remember, even if they have a bad scatter, more likely then not you either try again next turn, or the opponent places your relatively fast jump pack guys somewhere and they spend a turn Jumping/Running back into position. You have roughly a 50% chance of either getting a direct hit or a good scatter (depending on the setup), and about an 8% chance of getting a complete mishap. I'd take those odds any day in Vegas.

Anyway, they're great models. I say use them. Actually use them, play with them, try different things, and don't take the word of internet trolls who maybe used them once, had bad luck, and then threw them in the trash (or never used them, and are only regurgitating vitriol). For the price they pay getting a Jump Pack, a 5++, TWLC, and the Blind strike is almost criminal. You just got to be willing to use them with a little reckless abandonment.

I agree completely with Shadar. The "internet" tells me that using a khorne army consisting of khorne CSM, khorne berserkers and defilers (no heldrake usually, my group tends to avoid fliers for the most part) will make me instant lose every game I play ever. I'm (somehow) undefeated with chaos so far.. probably about 16:0. In fact, in spite of this thread i'm going to head down to my FLGS tomorrow and pick up two boxes of warp talons. I'm then going to figure out how to use them, and proceed to wreck face more with them.

:Edit:
I also just noticed that the champ can take 2x gifts of mutation.. EVEN BETTER!!! Given my normal luck i'll turn those two into 6, and have a WS5, 2W, 2+/5++, FNP I5 khorne warp talon champion or two doing the dirty punch to every loyalist astartes this side of the EoT.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

+1 To this guy and Juraigamer for actually answering the OPs question instead of lamenting and rehashing the same old tired tripe about what WT can't do...

A couple silly things I see mentioned. They are both TOO Punchy, and suck in CC because they don't have grenades....

Let's tackle the not having grenades makes them suck first. It's a myth. Plain and simple. 99% of the things that would be sitting in cover (and not trying to assault themselves) in the first place, aren't going to matter if you have to strike last. A full 10 Tactical Marines kills a whooping 1.44 WTs before they can strike (unmarked, obviously MoN would be less). You're remaining 3 or 4 Warp Talons will then proceed to curb stop the Tacticals.

Kabalite Warriors have I5, raise your hand if you've ever thought twice about assaulting Kabs with an I4 or lower CC model?

The other remaining misconception is largely because people tend to be really really bad at the DS mechanic. Primarily because they are way too conservative. You need to be aggressive with these guys. They are high risk, high reward. You land your blind strike in the middle of 3 or 4 units, and they have already done there job. That's why, personally, I think 2x5 is the way to run them. Remember, even if they have a bad scatter, more likely then not you either try again next turn, or the opponent places your relatively fast jump pack guys somewhere and they spend a turn Jumping/Running back into position. You have roughly a 50% chance of either getting a direct hit or a good scatter (depending on the setup), and about an 8% chance of getting a complete mishap. I'd take those odds any day in Vegas.

Anyway, they're great models. I say use them. Actually use them, play with them, try different things, and don't take the word of internet trolls who maybe used them once, had bad luck, and then threw them in the trash (or never used them, and are only regurgitating vitriol). For the price they pay getting a Jump Pack, a 5++, TWLC, and the Blind strike is almost criminal. You just got to be willing to use them with a little reckless abandonment.

I see what you're saying about grenades and agree somewhat, but I disagree about Warpflame Strike being very useful. I don't like the uncertainty of arriving from reserves, the uncertainty of deep strike, the uncertainty of the initiative tests and the dead certainty that you can't assault that turn and will be the target of pretty much every gun or stabby bit. If you have success with that tactic though then more power to you.

But I agree they are not bad, hell I've got 20 of them. Not sure why the internet hates them.

I see what you're saying about grenades and agree somewhat, but I disagree about Warpflame Strike being very useful. I don't like the uncertainty of arriving from reserves, the uncertainty of deep strike, the uncertainty of the initiative tests and the dead certainty that you can't assault that turn and will be the target of pretty much every gun or stabby bit. If you have success with that tactic though then more power to you.

But I agree they are not bad, hell I've got 20 of them. Not sure why the internet hates them.

That's some fair points, and I think it's all about building the list in order to mitigate those issues. Comms will go a long way in helping you control when they arrive, and Key is a fantastic if you can pull it off. Comms to delay them for a turn and Key to make them hit hard (read: accurately) on turn 3. The Key isn't the easiest thing to use either, although the DP is a good strat, I also think a Tzeentch Lord/Sorceror on a Disc is an effective way to roll.

Also, critically, whenever they are hitting the table, you don't want them to be the only threat around. That's why I think Turn 3 is probably the ideal target, as by then the rest of your force should be in assault range. That's why I also think that if you are shoehorning them into a primarily sit back and pewpew list (which I'm willing to bet most people are) then you wont be too terribly impressed with them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That's some fair points, and I think it's all about building the list in order to mitigate those issues. Comms will go a long way in helping you control when they arrive, and Key is a fantastic if you can pull it off. Comms to delay them for a turn and Key to make them hit hard (read: accurately) on turn 3. The Key isn't the easiest thing to use either, although the DP is a good strat, I also think a Tzeentch Lord/Sorceror on a Disc is an effective way to roll.

Also, critically, whenever they are hitting the table, you don't want them to be the only threat around. That's why I think Turn 3 is probably the ideal target, as by then the rest of your force should be in assault range. That's why I also think that if you are shoehorning them into a primarily sit back and pewpew list (which I'm willing to bet most people are) then you wont be too terribly impressed with them.

Hmm, I think I see what you're saying. Having other units in assault range would make the Warpflame Strike WS penalty a lot more biting.

I just prefer the certainty of starting on the board, and advancing with the troops & rhinos. Diff'rent strokes

I just wish there was a way to make Raptors and Warp Talons troops choices. Do that and I'd be one happy Red Corsair.

I'm hoping to add a few WT's to my army as well. Just because the hellturky is the flavor of the moment, does not make the WT's a bad unit.

I would run them without any upgrades though, since they are crazy expensive. But, they are a good distraction unit. Your opponent knows they could show up as early as turn 2, so he will try and deploy to protect against this. Use this to your advantage.

Blind is effective against a lot of shooting armies, Tau, Guard, and Necrons. If DS'd into a good spot you can shut down a turn of shooting for your opponents heavy hitters. Next turn after you destroy them. Even if you don't, you can guarantee the opponent is going to put everything into them. That 5++ helps there.

As for them sucking against 2+, yes they do. Don't send them at those. Hellturkey also sucks against 2+.

As for models in cover, that's never stopped me before. I play Orks a lot, going first doesn't matter when you have a good save ( 3+ is still an amazing save for a unit) and hit really hard. I'm tempted to give them VofLW for the double rerolls, but they are probably able to win a fight without it.

My biggest problem with them is more of the Death Company effect. They might actually be too deadly in CC. I would hope to hold them in combat through my turn and win in the opponents if possible. It will be hard to do with rerolling wounds and AP3.

Also, they are daemons. They also cause Fear, not able to do much to Marines, but can be useful.

The only big issues for them are vehicles and terminators, so if you are using them bring something to handle those units.

there's probably not enough raptors fluffwise in order to make them troops and i believe that warp talons are too daemonic to be troops.

Anyways, it would be much cooler if the warp talons had the LC/PF combo, but that's just wishful thinking

is it really that useful to have that many points sit out of the game until turn 3, and assume that your opponent left his troops remotely near the 12" warp storm you just created...thinking about it, if you manage to take out all AP3 or better weapons by turn 3 then they could go bananas. I dunno it seems to be a preference thing