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Two Skorne boxes down, 10 to go ImAGeek

 Wehrkind wrote:
Two Skorne boxes down, 10 to go ImAGeek

Haha I'd love some resculpted Nihilators come to think of it.

In a way, they could almost just offer a replacement head blister. The metal bodies are not terrible (at least that I have noticed) but the heads are just poo. Put out a 5-10$ head blister with 10-12 replacements, and bam, people can upgrade their mens without replacing the whole unit.

Hell, alternate head/helmet blisters would be really nice just to convert and make your armies a little more unique. Sort of surprised they don't do that (even if it was just a matter offering an official marketplace for outsourced versions, like Valve did with Hats for Team Fortress.)

 tommse wrote:
Man, Corvus Belli and Mierce really spoiled other minis for me...I love the game but rarely is there a model that might even hold a candle to what gw is pulling off lately :/

A matter of opinion to be sure, but I'd say PP does well more than just hold a candle to GW's releases. While I would say GW wins the value comparison with bloodreavers vs nyss its notable that bloodreavers are one of their best kits in terms of value vs number and quality of models, while I'd say PP has the upper hand when comparing blood warriors vs nyss. While GW troop models are almost exclusively freeform in terms of pose, the poses available are rarely as dynamic or distinct as those that PP models have. On an individual scale its one thing, but when looking at a whole unit on the board the PP posing stands out much more than GW, something I prefer personally. GW wins sculpting quality, but again, not all of that is seen when gaming, and GW has more questionable designs than PP by my reckoning. Ultimately it comes down to personal choice in terms of aesthetic, but to say that PP is so far behind GW does a disservice to the former. The other two companies mentioned... yeah their models do look really nice.

PP units are much inferior to GW ones as far as table presentation / presence, imo - dynamic sculpts hurt when you're duplicating them so much. My $75, 20-man bog trog shamblers unit has an absolutely shameful only 3 unique sculpts . So, something like 7 duplicates each... in one unit...

I still love the unit (it's one of the few I use the official models for) but I have no idea what PP was thinking there!

Yeah, PP occasionally puts out a killer unit, but by and large, they don't hold a candle to GW from a technical perspective (i.e. tastes aside). I consider them by far the weakest miniature line of any of the big names, even before their PVC abominations.

It was kind of charming when they were a tiny company. Now I consider it just laziness.

Is there a reason to have a lot of repeat metal sculpts, by the way? My impression is that molding for casting metal miniatures is not nearly as expensive as plastic, so the number of repeats is a little surprising in those cases. Unless I'm missing something?

I assumed it was 'cause you don't need to pay sculptors (or studio painters) for as much work.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah, PP occasionally puts out a killer unit, but by and large, they don't hold a candle to GW from a technical perspective (i.e. tastes aside). I consider them by far the weakest miniature line of any of the big names, even before their PVC abominations.

It was kind of charming when they were a tiny company. Now I consider it just laziness.

I suppose that's where my disagreement lies, I feel like tastes aside PP is not as good technically as GW but aren't vastly inferior either. This isn't to forgive a mere 3 unique sculpts on a 20 man unit, but it's not like GW hasn't produced some sub-par and abominable kits themselves.

 RiTides wrote:
Is there a reason to have a lot of repeat metal sculpts, by the way? My impression is that molding for casting metal miniatures is not nearly as expensive as plastic, so the number of repeats is a little surprising in those cases. Unless I'm missing something?

there's also the very strong WYSIWG aspect of PP gaming culture,

In the glory days of GW the did churn out a huge number of resculpts but a lot of them were weapon or armour changes (or head swaps which I would work ok for non-helmeted PP stuff)

there's a limit to what you can do with just poses

plus logistically its a lot easier to keep 3 sculpts in stock and mix them up to make packs than 20,

I just don't understand (and that's why I'm asking if I'm missing something) how something everyone can agree on (for instance, the 3 unique sculpts in a 20-man unit, or the Convergence plastics) just gets repeated over and over by PP. I think GW rightfully catches a lot of criticism for not listening to customers... but while PP seems to listen regarding rules (at least somewhat), on their modeling front they really have remained subpar in areas that are easy to improve.

On the plastic, I heard it rumored they were stuck in a contract, that they are now out of... but on duplicate sculpts, it just baffles me that they continue to do this. Shamblers are a very recent release (maybe a year or so?) and they've taken their duplicate sculpt folly and just tripled down on it. It's baffling!

I guess I should ping my friends who are press gangers (and who are great guys), but it seems like press gangers have no real say or influence on these things, either... how can it get through to PP, and how has it not done so by now?

Edit: Ninja'ed, but I'm still wondering about this... WYSIWYG doesn't mean you need so many duplicate poses . I got around this a little bit by modeling the minis facing different ways on bases with clearly marked front arcs, so that adds a little bit of variety... but it's just a bit frustrating to have them not respond on some things that are so obvious (and for $75 a box, they really could have sculpted a 4th or 5th shambler, resulting in "only" 4 duplicates of each).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
it's not like GW hasn't produced some sub-par and abominable kits themselves.

Oh, yeah, I don't consider GW anywhere near the best in the industry. I'd break things down into...

tier 1: gorgeous resins (kingdom death, arena rex, specialty lines)
2: very strong and realistic (malifaux (for the most part), infinity, other miniatures-emphasis stuff
3: nice, maybe heroic scale stuff (gw, PP's characters
3.5: still fine, the highest end board game stuff like x-wing or some of the above average 3rd party stuff
4: stuff like reaper and most PVC, incl. PP.
5: okay board game stuff, most pre-painteds

(I think PP does generally put nice emphasis in characters, but the rest of their line feels lazy)

 RiTides wrote:
I just don't understand (and that's why I'm asking if I'm missing something) how something everyone can agree on (for instance, the 3 unique sculpts in a 20-man unit, or the Convergence plastics) just gets repeated over and over by PP. I think GW rightfully catches a lot of criticism for not listening to customers... but while PP seems to listen regarding rules (at least somewhat), on their modeling front they really have remained subpar in areas that are easy to improve.

On the plastic, I heard it rumored they were stuck in a contract, that they are now out of... but on duplicate sculpts, it just baffles me that they continue to do this. Shamblers are a very recent release (maybe a year or so?) and they've taken their duplicate sculpt folly and just tripled down on it. It's baffling =/

I guess I should ping my friends who are press gangers (and who are great guys), but it seems like press gangers have no real say or influence on these things, either... how can it get through to PP, and how has it not done so by now?

There's a real lack of people wanting to make PP armies beautiful compared to a lot of other games I play, and I think the company's approach to making their minis has played a bit part in this... and in the end that hurts adoption of the game.

Part of why I don't like PP much- I feel they've heavily emphasized competition over all the creative stuff.

I'm bothered by the repeat sculpts too - especially as they don't need to resculpt 7 new models. I'm fine using the same legs/bodies/etc - it'd just be nice to have a few swappable heads or weapon arms per kit.

It shouldn't be that much extra sculpting really. Take existing head, change the mouth position a little, add a mustache or something - boom, new head.

 RiTides wrote:
PP units are much inferior to GW ones as far as table presentation / presence, imo - dynamic sculpts hurt when you're duplicating them so much.

I find this very true as well. if I have a 20 character unit, and only 3 different sculpts (as you mentioned), if those three sculpts as flailing their arms and leaping in the air all spread eagle, it just gets annoying, and looks silly. One or two figures in a unit doing that stuff is kind of 'fun', but I prefer my units to be a bit more 'hunkered down' (Is that an legitimate term? I used it all the time, so I hope so), or in an otherwise 'prepared' state. Characters are the ones who are supposed to have... character. Flailing, Jumping, taunting, etc, let them get crazy, everyone else just STAY IN FORMATION!

A great example of this, is the chaos warriors box set vs the chaos marauders boxed set (or whatever the heck they're called now in Age of Trademark). The warriors had a very 'contained' pose. Different weapons, shields and helmets. All the weapons sat in their hands in a way that they all fit together in a ranked up unit well, but still looked very imposing. The marauders had plenty of options too, heads, shields, weapons. But their arms were made so they looked like they were all screaming lunatics (which, I'm sure you could argue they probably ARE, but, that's not my point), and their weapons ,and shields stuck out in a way that they were much harder to transport and move around the table than the warriors.

I really dig both Warmachine, and Hordes, and I can't say I've been too into much else PP has done, but I think some of their sculpts have become outdated. Hopefully they will continue to 'update' some of the worse units, but in my opinion, keeping the rules good right now, is VERY important. With GW's two big games suffering from bad rule sets, it's really time for these other companies to 'step up' and gain ground on them.

The crazy thing too is that it's not all rank and file, where you'll need 20- 100 of them.

Most units tend to cap out at 10 figures, and if they'd just toss a few extra parts in we'd all be golden.

Didn't the newer Trollkin releases have a few optional parts? I keep thinking the Scattergunners and Highwaymen had stuff like ammo pouches that were optional.

Or maybe I just didn't know where to glue them.

I think a lot of the character models are just as dynamic as some of the other big minis companies out there though, especially the newer releases.

I would love to see more of what PP did with Goreshade- take a flat boring model and turn it into something far more impressive.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
it's not like GW hasn't produced some sub-par and abominable kits themselves.

Oh, yeah, I don't consider GW anywhere near the best in the industry. I'd break things down into...

tier 1: gorgeous resins (kingdom death, arena rex, specialty lines)
2: very strong and realistic (malifaux (for the most part), infinity, other miniatures-emphasis stuff
3: nice, maybe heroic scale stuff (gw, PP's characters
3.5: still fine, the highest end board game stuff like x-wing or some of the above average 3rd party stuff
4: stuff like reaper and most PVC, incl. PP.
5: okay board game stuff, most pre-painteds

(I think PP does generally put nice emphasis in characters, but the rest of their line feels lazy)

Ah, I think I understand where you are coming from now, and I see your point.

On the topic of repeat sculpts, I feel like 3 generic + unit leader is good for a 10-man (provided they are good poses), but a 20-man should at least be 6 generic + leader or have some basic posing/part swap options. As others have raised, if PP produced some alternate gear/accessory packs with different themes ("Iron Kingdom soldier accessories" "alternate Skorne heads" "Elven cloaks" etc.) they would sell very well.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As others have raised, if PP produced some alternate gear/accessory packs with different themes ("Iron Kingdom soldier accessories" "alternate Skorne heads" "Elven cloaks" etc.) they would sell very well.

You blew my mind. I never even thought of something so simple!

A few bits and bobs for every faction... man. That'd be great. I'd have an excuse to buy something other than solos and casters!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As others have raised, if PP produced some alternate gear/accessory packs with different themes ("Iron Kingdom soldier accessories" "alternate Skorne heads" "Elven cloaks" etc.) they would sell very well.

You blew my mind. I never even thought of something so simple!

A few bits and bobs for every faction... man. That'd be great. I'd have an excuse to buy something other than solos and casters!

Hey, hey! Credit where it is due!

(PP! Call me!)

Rules for free is probably a reaction to the release of AoS whose rules are free per se.

Problably not a reaction. AoS and Warmachine have absolutely nothing in common.

Except... free rules!?

Sorry . I agree of course that they're totally distinct. The timing does make it seem like AoS could have played a part, though. Neither are really truly free though, if you play a lot you likely have paid for books / apps / etc. Which is no problem, and having more of the basics be free is great for adoption.

PP has often made social moves in response to things GW does, or were their previous sales on the faction starters that happened at the same times as GW's yearly price increases just a coincidence?

PP hates to spend any more money than they have to. This explains some of the lacking quality in some areas, like multiple sculpts and not having an updated website that can handle more than 10,000 people viewing an image at a time.

Anyway, I think the free rules are more of a reaction to the gaming community at large's changes. Many things are migrating to free rules, partly in reaction to the idea that pirating happens and not much you can do about it. You can still charge for a physical copy which many people will prefer to have instead of printing one out or having a tablet.

Plus when playing WMH you rarely reference the rulebook anyway. I haven't had to open my rulebook in well over a year, honestly I have no idea where it is

Plus its only the main rules they are making free. You still either have to buy the physical models or decks on Warroom to get the model cards. Either way, PP still gets your money.

 Grey Templar wrote:
PP hates to spend any more money than they have to. This explains some of the lacking quality in some areas, like multiple sculpts and not having an updated website that can handle more than 10,000 people viewing an image at a time.

Anyway, I think the free rules are more of a reaction to the gaming community at large's changes. Many things are migrating to free rules, partly in reaction to the idea that pirating happens and not much you can do about it. You can still charge for a physical copy which many people will prefer to have instead of printing one out or having a tablet.

Plus when playing WMH you rarely reference the rulebook anyway. I haven't had to open my rulebook in well over a year, honestly I have no idea where it is

Plus its only the main rules they are making free. You still either have to buy the physical models or decks on Warroom to get the model cards. Either way, PP still gets your money.

They do seem kinda cheap to me too, at times. I mean, Malifaux is able to go ahead and replace their whole line with HIPS plastics somehow. It seems weird that it's taken so long for PP to even dip their toe in it. Plus they have tons of old minis that could use resculpting and a switch to plastic (HIPS or not) and they do very few a year. And yeah - the website could use some work too.

I've noticed they've been hiring a ton this year - though I'm not sure if that means they're rapidly expanding or having a high burnout rate. (They seem to refuse to hire me, regardless, the jerks!)

And I do think the previous year's summer sales were just a coincidence (and they've been replaced by the army boxes now it seems). Plus they weren't really very good deals to begin with.

Well, I must admit I don't get how Wyrd does it. Plastic molds are hideously expensive relative to other types, especially HIPS. How Wyrd stays profitable with their low volume is a little odd.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, I must admit I don't get how Wyrd does it. Plastic molds are hideously expensive relative to other types, especially HIPS. How Wyrd stays profitable with their low volume is a little odd.

Wyrd, Outlaw Miniatures, Kingdom Death, Shieldwolf Miniatures, Warlord Games and many more are putting out decent plastic figs. There are a lot of smaller companies that have moved into the plastic miniatures and are leapfrogging PP in terms of quality. GW is still king of the hill in regards to table top plastic miniatures and instead of trying to match them, PP is sliding further into mediocrity staying with PVC like this. The whole Maelstroms Edge kickstarter showed that the cost for plastic figures has dropped tremendously. GW has pocketed those savings and continue to charge higher and higher prices. PP is doing the same thing, staying with crappy PVC and charging nearly as much as GW.

True enough, I suppose I am still thinking in terms of 3-5 years ago.

Schmapdi wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
PP hates to spend any more money than they have to. This explains some of the lacking quality in some areas, like multiple sculpts and not having an updated website that can handle more than 10,000 people viewing an image at a time.

Anyway, I think the free rules are more of a reaction to the gaming community at large's changes. Many things are migrating to free rules, partly in reaction to the idea that pirating happens and not much you can do about it. You can still charge for a physical copy which many people will prefer to have instead of printing one out or having a tablet.

Plus when playing WMH you rarely reference the rulebook anyway. I haven't had to open my rulebook in well over a year, honestly I have no idea where it is

Plus its only the main rules they are making free. You still either have to buy the physical models or decks on Warroom to get the model cards. Either way, PP still gets your money.

They do seem kinda cheap to me too, at times. I mean, Malifaux is able to go ahead and replace their whole line with HIPS plastics somehow. It seems weird that it's taken so long for PP to even dip their toe in it. Plus they have tons of old minis that could use resculpting and a switch to plastic (HIPS or not) and they do very few a year. And yeah - the website could use some work too.

I've noticed they've been hiring a ton this year - though I'm not sure if that means they're rapidly expanding or having a high burnout rate. (They seem to refuse to hire me, regardless, the jerks!)

And I do think the previous year's summer sales were just a coincidence (and they've been replaced by the army boxes now it seems). Plus they weren't really very good deals to begin with.

They tend to have a fairly high turnover rate on their employees. I've heard some grapevine stuff that they can be a difficult company to work for.

 AduroT wrote:

They tend to have a fairly high turnover rate on their employees. I've heard some grapevine stuff that they can be a difficult company to work for.

The ex-PP employees I talked to said Yeary subscribes to the advance or fire philosophy in business. If someone doesn't advance into a new position within two year, fire them. Personally I think that is the most bone-headed philosophy a company can have. When ever I hear a manager talk about it, I ask them if they change companies if they haven't advanced within two year. Shockingly, they don't.

...well it does tend to mean you fire people before they get confident enough in their position to ask for a raise, or more holiday, or a desk by the window

(but yes it is a dumb philosophy that means you spend time and money recruiting and training that you don't have to do)