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danp164 wrote:
Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

5th Ed 10 Plaguebearers could stand up to an inordinate amount of firepower.

5th Ed 10 Bloodletters could panhandle anything without fear of loosing combat... ever.

5th Ed 10 Horrors would annihilate a whole unit of 4+ save shmucks.

These units are still good, but now function at a larger size mainly due to GW wanting to sell us more models. Nothing became bad its just the whole army shifted focus from small elite units to large hordes.

But hell that's just my observations....

Well to be air I'm glad daemons have become a horde army, when I imagine the spewing masses churning out of the belly of the warp, I imagine hordes of creatures, not just a hand full.

Eldercaveman wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

5th Ed 10 Plaguebearers could stand up to an inordinate amount of firepower.

5th Ed 10 Bloodletters could panhandle anything without fear of loosing combat... ever.

5th Ed 10 Horrors would annihilate a whole unit of 4+ save shmucks.

These units are still good, but now function at a larger size mainly due to GW wanting to sell us more models. Nothing became bad its just the whole army shifted focus from small elite units to large hordes.

But hell that's just my observations....

Well to be air I'm glad daemons have become a horde army, when I imagine the spewing masses churning out of the belly of the warp, I imagine hordes of creatures, not just a hand full.

True but it doesn't mash well with the fluff making deamons out to be incredibly strong and tough to put down barring exorcism. but the problem isn't so much the fluff as the fact that deamons have always been expensive units fielded in small groups to great effect, this was quite a radical shift in design.

Lovepug13 wrote:
If thats your position then it's cool......I disagree but then thats just an opinion and is off topic here.

As for the new demons I don't think its amazing but it does seem fairly neutral in its power distribution......I just think the random element is not that great and may disappoint some demon regulars.

As has been said, if it means Tzeench hitters and nurgle scorers aren't the way to go army anymore, I'm not complaining.

I mean, tzeench hitters and nurgle scorers is good and it should be allowed and remain effective, but it shouldn't be the ONLY option, like how 'crons wraiths and their flyers are a take to win army.

Edit: I sounded like a twit.
Edit of edit: I still sound like a twit.

danp164 wrote:
Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

5th Ed 10 Plaguebearers could stand up to an inordinate amount of firepower.

5th Ed 10 Bloodletters could panhandle anything without fear of loosing combat... ever.

5th Ed 10 Horrors would annihilate a whole unit of 4+ save shmucks.

These units are still good, but now function at a larger size mainly due to GW wanting to sell us more models. Nothing became bad its just the whole army shifted focus from small elite units to large hordes.

But hell that's just my observations....

I think that is the biggest change. My first game with new daemons played a similar list to the old book and did terribly, because they're not elite anymore, like you said!

I don't think I'll be leaving home very often without a 20 man squad of troop, before it used to be squads of 8! (for khorne!)

danp164 wrote:
Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

Exactly. It's about the most radical shift I've seen in any army. For the troop section anyway. The HQ and elite sections seems to have suffered from pendulum syndrome. GW can't say 'hm, this unit was too good before, so we'll make a slight adjustment', and instead nerf units while simultaneously raising the cost for them.

Really do need to pick up the new book now to see how bad things got for me

I run a pure tzeentch army, so wondering how badly this will effect me.

Usuaully:

Fateweaver/LoC
2x heralds (scribes and a chariot herald)

3x9 flamers
2x10 horrors
2x6 horrors

3x5 screamers

In higher points ill throw in a DP aswell or just run LoC + weaver.

Just wondering how badly my list has now been hit

Considering horrors are 10 strong at least your making some changes off the bat.
Heralds on chariots are not that hot. Your better sticking him on a disk in a squad of horrors.

Flamers are nurfed. Their now OK units good at clearing hordes. They are no longer the auto win unit they were.
Mono god lists are weaker. There are strong reasons to go crono-god

 Redbeard wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

Exactly. It's about the most radical shift I've seen in any army. For the troop section anyway. The HQ and elite sections seems to have suffered from pendulum syndrome. GW can't say 'hm, this unit was too good before, so we'll make a slight adjustment', and instead nerf units while simultaneously raising the cost for them.

But were any of surprised at all that things like Flamers, Screamers or Fatey were balanced? (Flamers especially!)

Alot of the other decried 'nerfs' aren't really nerfs to begin with. (ie: Bloodcrushers)
I honestly don't understand the 'Crusher whining by some. Yes, they lost EW, (which never made sense on Daemons since it invalidated what's supposed to be one the best counters that was specifically designed to kill them!), and they lost -1T/3+ armour. But they gained +1W, a unit champ option with instant access to ap2 and Cavalry unit type (which alone makes them miles better than before!)
So really, they've lost a slight bit of resiliance to basic small arms and now fear S8+. But they are also better now vs DE splinter weaponry than before and their newfound speed while no longer being outright crippled by being forced to Deep Strike means turn 2 charges are easily doable. (something that was pretty much impossible in the past because people either danced around outside your assault range or else just fed you a tiny little unit to keep you at arms length...)

Opponents will likely have 1 turn to deal with your 'Crushers before you slam them into something tasty. And that's alongside all the other super fast options that can't be ignored either.

Another part of the problem is people are still trying to evaluate everything in a vacuum using pure mathhammer.
It's fine to use mathhammer to get a general idea of how a unit will likely preform or how action 'X' will likely turn out in a game. But to simply write-off entire units by simply mathhammering them out in a total vacuum, against typical hard-counters is plain silly.

 Jackal wrote:
Really do need to pick up the new book now to see how bad things got for me

I run a pure tzeentch army, so wondering how badly this will effect me.

Usuaully:

Fateweaver/LoC
2x heralds (scribes and a chariot herald)

3x9 flamers
2x10 horrors
2x6 horrors

3x5 screamers

In higher points ill throw in a DP aswell or just run LoC + weaver.

Just wondering how badly my list has now been hit

A basic LoC is far more flexible than Fatey.
Fatey isn't 'awful', but he's no longer a no-brainer who can easily buff almost your entire army and outright double your army's resiliance. His re-roll is still usefull, and he comes with the Warlord ability that let's your re-roll the Warpstorm table results which is pure win! (pretty much eliminates the likelyhood of results 2,3,4 which are rather bad for us!)

Flamers are finally balanced. Alot of hardcore competitive players are obviously upset by the fact that 27 Flamers is no longer an absolute instant-beatstick to everything in the game, but meh. Large units of them will still rape face since even 2+ saves don't like getting hit by 7-9 templates. (and you'll still outright remove anything with 4+ or worse saves)
Just don't expect 3-4 Flamers to be able to still pretty much auto-wipe units like Plaguemarines or Terminators other high toughness/save units.

The Warpflame rule is also not as crippling as some make it out to be. It simply means Tzeentch now needs to focus fire and either wipe-out or cripple units. A 6+ FnP save on 3 MEQ's for example is still pretty much meaningless.
And it's only 1 test per shooting phase, not 1 per unit that fired as some are trying to make it out to be.

Tzeentch will have problems against Eldar Runes, SW's Rune Priests and GK's, (but then ALL Daemons will still struggle against GK's - something that no fault of our book, but rather the GK 'dex being so borked)
Eldar Runes will likely get re-worked later this year, while Rune Priests can be focused on. (and eventually, those Runic weapons will get their overhaul).
Tyranid SitW can again be likewise delt with by simply keeping out of it's rather short 12" range.
Though with Ld10 for all psychic tests, Tzeentch is a bit better off than our other psykers in regards to Eldar Runes/SitW.

Thats not as bad as i had feared then
Priests and farseers can just be picked on by screamers early on.
Just didnt really feel like having to change my list around to the point i have nothing i used before

Also, would be nice to test out some new ideas, but those chariots need a fix before i even think about takin them
Love the model, just the rules make it seem rather pointless to have.

And is it just me, or is the flamer on that chariot 3x the normal size? 0_o

Experiment 626 wrote:

But were any of surprised at all that things like Flamers, Screamers or Fatey were balanced? (Flamers especially!)

I'm not sure they were. They were reduced in power, but I'm not sure the new versions are "balanced" either. Flamers especially, seem underpowered. Whether you like it or not, the majority of models you face in this game have a 3+ save. Losing AP3 on a mediocre toughness, low save model means that the risk vs reward is no longer worth it. Yes, you can roast guardsmen, but big deal, you will usually be playing marines.

I'm not saying that the WD rules were balanced, but I don't think that the original codex rules were that far off. 3 guys, for 105 points, could either drop in, land on target, and dish out some pain, or they could scatter off, and get killed without doing much. And that was a reasonable risk vs reward scenario. People sometimes took them, but they weren't an auto-include, so that means they didn't suck, but they weren't OP either.

The new ones are crap. Sorry, that's just how it is. It's a 3+ save game, and if you're not AP3, you better be making up for it somehow.

Alot of the other decried 'nerfs' aren't really nerfs to begin with. (ie: Bloodcrushers)
I honestly don't understand the 'Crusher whining by some. Yes, they lost EW, (which never made sense on Daemons since it invalidated what's supposed to be one the best counters that was specifically designed to kill them!), and they lost -1T/3+ armour. But they gained +1W, a unit champ option with instant access to ap2 and Cavalry unit type (which alone makes them miles better than before!)

So really, they've lost a slight bit of resiliance to basic small arms and now fear S8+. But they are also better now vs DE splinter weaponry than before and their newfound speed while no longer being outright crippled by being forced to Deep Strike means turn 2 charges are easily doable. (something that was pretty much impossible in the past because people either danced around outside your assault range or else just fed you a tiny little unit to keep you at arms length...)

Perhaps you play in a different meta than the rest of us. I haven't seen splinter cannons in a game since the week after 6e hit and everyone stopped playing Dark Eldar. You know what I have seen a lot of? S8(+) weapons. Missiles, lascannons, psybolt autocannon dreads. You know what happened when I tried crushers in the new codex? I ran into 5 typhoons and the crushers just vanished.

You don't understand the "whining"? Try playing with them.

Clearly some of this is going to come down to local meta. In the Northeast you don't see missile spam as much as before (Typhoons are nearly nonexistant), and DE make regular appearances at top tables, albeit not in huge numbers.

After reading a few more posts, i see crushers went up nearly 50% in price 0_o
So,
gains: +1 W, cav, champ gets an AP2 weapon, 15 points pm.
Lost: +1T, 3+, EW.

Im sorry, but i just dont see the trade off here.
If you want fast and hard hitting, but fragile, slaanesh is the way to go.
Crushers were ment to be hard hitting but slow shock troops, they are now a glass hammer that will get shot to death in the turn or 2 they are not in combat, even with cover.

GW should have learned a lesson from nid warriors.
Losing EW and gaining +1W really isnt a good trade off as sales on warriors dropped through the floor after that one.

This though?
They have changed the role of crushers to a completely new unit.
I rather take seekers instead since they are cheaper and points for damage they can cause, they win easily.

 Jackal wrote:
After reading a few more posts, i see crushers went up nearly 50% in price 0_o
So,
gains: +1 W, cav, champ gets an AP2 weapon, 15 points pm.
Lost: +1T, 3+, EW.

Im sorry, but i just dont see the trade off here.
If you want fast and hard hitting, but fragile, slaanesh is the way to go.
Crushers were ment to be hard hitting but slow shock troops, they are now a glass hammer that will get shot to death in the turn or 2 they are not in combat, even with cover.

GW should have learned a lesson from nid warriors.
Losing EW and gaining +1W really isnt a good trade off as sales on warriors dropped through the floor after that one.

This though?
They have changed the role of crushers to a completely new unit.
I rather take seekers instead since they are cheaper and points for damage they can cause, they win easily.

Crushers went up 5 points.

Someone posted them as 55 0_o
TBH though, i would have kept them at what they were since the chopped and changed.

I think Redbeard is pushing the panic button too quickly. The codex certainly isn't Necrons. But it isn't terrible either. The biggest weakness seems to be the overwhelming amount of units that serve one purpose, assault, in a shooting based meta-game. Lack of grenades is terrible too. All you have to do is sit your blob in terrain, OW the crap out of the first unit that charges and then hit first. For this reason alone I see min-sized Fiends squads as pretty useful. One mistake I think lots of folks are making is the mistake of considering this army to be a horde army. This isn't the case.. 9 pt toughness 3 models aren't even close to as efficient as guardsmen or ork boyz. I'd much rather have a 6 pt t4 model who will almost always have the same save due to cover, plus both those units have the ability to both shoot and assault.

The T4, multi-wound models are a bit of a bummer, but the current meta sees way less STR.8. Redbeard mentioned that his area (Chicago) has a bunch of Str. 8. I'm not sure I buy this. Looking at GT results from all over the country, Str. 8 is down in favor of Str. 7. GK don't often take Psyflemen, much more likely to take Dreadknights. Long Fangs are still pretty popular, but SW in general seem to have taken a hit due to very weak flyer defense and flyers like Heldrakes being devastating to foot MEQ. Necrons are mostly Str. 7. Vendettas are common, but they wont hit the board till turn 2-3 and then they only will cause 2W average, by this time its very possible for the Daemon player to be across the board.

I think the codex has a lot of promise if you build it in a manner that completely overloads your opponent with threats. I think close to 40 Seekers, mostly maxed Hounds, some Crushers and small Fiend units supported by mostly MSU troops would be a good place to start. Daemonettes, Seekers, Hounds, Bearers seem like the best units. Divination and Telepathy heralds could be good in order to do things such as grab invisibility for your blocks of units, or get a 4++ and turn it into a 2++ with Grimoire (a tactic that I think would be quite useful for units such as Crushers).

That being said, I think that GK, IG and Nids are going to eat this codex for lunch. Enfeeble + Devourers is terrible for any of the MW options and Termagants will be a big issue as you don't get the shooting to really clear screening units. GK will do well because of the abundance of T3 and preferred enemy, force weaponing the multi-wounders will be pretty easy too. IG blobs can be hit pretty hard by some of the Slannesh and Khorne units but the real issue is the lack of grenades, between overwatch and hitting first, blobs should be able to do really well vs most Daemon units. Artillery such as Griffons and Manticores are also pretty bad.

I think the Heldrake, though in some ways counter intuitive (you'll be in assault so its harder to find flaming targets) will be a good edition to a lot of Daemon armies, it'll force MEQ players to not huddle up, making it less likely that they can just camp fully in terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and one thing i'll agree completely with Redbeard on... the Warp Storm table is bull. Possibly losing an HQ turn 1, slaying your own Warlord. That is ridiculous. Especially since book missions make StW important. I think this mechanic is terrible, even if it's unlikely.

 Redbeard wrote:
Perhaps you play in a different meta than the rest of us. I haven't seen splinter cannons in a game since the week after 6e hit and everyone stopped playing Dark Eldar. You know what I have seen a lot of? S8(+) weapons. Missiles, lascannons, psybolt autocannon dreads. You know what happened when I tried crushers in the new codex? I ran into 5 typhoons and the crushers just vanished.

You don't understand the "whining"? Try playing with them.

I couldn't agree more. The local meta here has a fair amount of S8 weapons, but even without that, there's still a lot of Enfeeble going around, which means that the 45 point, T4 model can now be Instant Deathed by S6. I was playing a test game against my son's Tyranids and he enfeebled a 6 strong unit of crushers, then proceeded to ID them all with this Flyrant's 12 shot, TL Devourers.

From my perspective, I almost don't care if the army is super competitive or not. My problem is that the entire character of the army has been changed so much that I don't really like it anymore. Sure, the models are still good, but really that's only the stuff that's super expensive now. I don't want to play a horde army. I would never get into Orcs, or IG because that playstyle just doesn't appeal to me. My elite, small model count army has become a horde and I'm not happy about it.

 Redbeard wrote:

I'm not sure they were. They were reduced in power, but I'm not sure the new versions are "balanced" either. Flamers especially, seem underpowered. Whether you like it or not, the majority of models you face in this game have a 3+ save. Losing AP3 on a mediocre toughness, low save model means that the risk vs reward is no longer worth it. Yes, you can roast guardsmen, but big deal, you will usually be playing marines.

I'm not saying that the WD rules were balanced, but I don't think that the original codex rules were that far off. 3 guys, for 105 points, could either drop in, land on target, and dish out some pain, or they could scatter off, and get killed without doing much. And that was a reasonable risk vs reward scenario. People sometimes took them, but they weren't an auto-include, so that means they didn't suck, but they weren't OP either.

The new ones are crap. Sorry, that's just how it is. It's a 3+ save game, and if you're not AP3, you better be making up for it somehow.

Flamers are in no way underpowered. Just because you no longer outright ignore MEQ saves does not make a unit crap. And Flamers do make-up for the lack of ap3 - they kept their newer T4/W2 profile and now re-roll failed 1's to save on top of it. (and the Pyrocaster has a 33% chance to gain a non-Warpflame S5 template if you feel inclined to take a chance...)
They also are no longer forced to Deep Strike into play and thus severely limit their first round of shooting. They can now deploy normally and are still Jump Infantry giving them solid mobility and the ability to hug cover/LoS blocking terrain.

Risk vs reward is still heavily in the favour of the Flamers. 3+ saves be damned when you're inflicting 40+ auto-hits against that marine unit! That's an average of 6.6 dead MEQ's. So 3-4 remaining chumps likely get a 6+ FnP and then do what? Take some fairly ineffectual shots back or else try to charge in?! (and take an average of 18 more auto-hits causing another average 2.97 casulties?!)
More models in a unit only makes the Flamers that much deadlier to boot since it ups the likelyhood of models being bunched up tighter due to larger unit footprints.
So yes, risk vs reward on Flamers is fairly good - when you play full sized units of them! If you still expect 3-4 to do just as much damage as they used to, then sure, you're going to think them god-awful and useless piles of terd.

 Redbeard wrote:
Perhaps you play in a different meta than the rest of us. I haven't seen splinter cannons in a game since the week after 6e hit and everyone stopped playing Dark Eldar. You know what I have seen a lot of? S8(+) weapons. Missiles, lascannons, psybolt autocannon dreads. You know what happened when I tried crushers in the new codex? I ran into 5 typhoons and the crushers just vanished.

You don't understand the "whining"? Try playing with them.

Well aparently I do play in a different meta because like Mannahnin I don't see alot of S8 anymore, but I do see a helluva lot more multi-shot S7 for gunning down flyers and mass swaping of melta for plasma due to higher amounts of foot marines. I also see lots more small arms to account for FMC spam since those weapons are the better hard-counters due to how grounding works. (and then saving up the bigger guns once the mass faceplants hit the table)
One single meta doesn't represent the entire community. (just like mathhammer in a vacuum can't claim that X/Y/Z are now completely useless while A/B/C are absolute must-spams to stay competitive)


But then perhaps I also don't feel so negative over the huge sweeping changes because I'm a die-hard Tzeentch player, and change is what we're all about!

I hope people realize that Cavalry isn't slowed by terrain...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I hope people realize that Cavalry isn't slowed by terrain...

I think people for the most part simply underestimate just how fast Cavalry is to begin with.

Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

I don't know why they took grenades away from Slaanesh units. I guess GW really wants us to take Skull Cannons in the same army.

danp164 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

5th Ed 10 Plaguebearers could stand up to an inordinate amount of firepower.

5th Ed 10 Bloodletters could panhandle anything without fear of loosing combat... ever.

5th Ed 10 Horrors would annihilate a whole unit of 4+ save shmucks.

These units are still good, but now function at a larger size mainly due to GW wanting to sell us more models. Nothing became bad its just the whole army shifted focus from small elite units to large hordes.

But hell that's just my observations....

Well to be air I'm glad daemons have become a horde army, when I imagine the spewing masses churning out of the belly of the warp, I imagine hordes of creatures, not just a hand full.

True but it doesn't mash well with the fluff making deamons out to be incredibly strong and tough to put down barring exorcism. but the problem isn't so much the fluff as the fact that deamons have always been expensive units fielded in small groups to great effect, this was quite a radical shift in design.

Except, that with all the OP 5th Ed. Codicex, it would impossible to keep Daemons like this without making them just as broken as Wolves, Crons, GK, and IG. As I see it (and by all means feel free to disagree since I've had very little experience with Daemons until this new codex) making them semi-hoardy was the only way to make them viable while still somewhat sticking to the fluff and NOT making them broken like the 5th ed codices. GW really seems to want to make 6th codices (somehwhat) balanced with each other, for better or for worse.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

They don't, though. They treat all difficult terrain as dangerous instead. Your I is only reduced if you charge through difficult terrain, which Cavalry doesn't ever do.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

I don't know why they took grenades away from Slaanesh units. I guess GW really wants us to take Skull Cannons in the same army.

Except with 'counts as' conversions, this is a very, very horrible idea to give to Slaanesh players...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

They don't, though. They treat all difficult terrain as dangerous instead. Your I is only reduced if you charge through difficult terrain, which Cavalry doesn't ever do.

Sadly it doesn't matter whether you treat it as something else. Read the main rulebook FAQ.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

They don't, though. They treat all difficult terrain as dangerous instead. Your I is only reduced if you charge through difficult terrain, which Cavalry doesn't ever do.

Sadly it doesn't matter whether you treat it as something else. Read the main rulebook FAQ.

Oh, right you are. That's pretty silly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

They don't, though. They treat all difficult terrain as dangerous instead. Your I is only reduced if you charge through difficult terrain, which Cavalry doesn't ever do.

That's not true. The BRB FAQ says that models that "ignore terrain" when moving (such as Beasts, Cavalry, or Harlequins) still strike at I1 when assaulting through terrain if they don't have grenades.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

I don't know why they took grenades away from Slaanesh units. I guess GW really wants us to take Skull Cannons in the same army.

Except with 'counts as' conversions, this is a very, very horrible idea to give to Slaanesh players...

Why?

Khorne/Slaanesh is one of the most iconic ways to bring the intra-Chaos rivalry, hostility and in-fighting to the table that pervades and arguably even defines the Chaos background (Nurgle-Tzeentch being the other).

 Zweischneid wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Cavalry is awesome. It stinks that they still strike at I1 assaulting into terrain, though.

I don't know why they took grenades away from Slaanesh units. I guess GW really wants us to take Skull Cannons in the same army.

Except with 'counts as' conversions, this is a very, very horrible idea to give to Slaanesh players...

Why?

Khorne/Slaanesh is one of the most iconic ways to bring the intra-Chaos rivalry, hostility and in-fighting to the table that pervades and arguably even defines the Chaos background (Nurgle-Tzeentch being the other).

Um...I think that he's insinuating that a Slaanesh player who likes to model will turn a Khorne Skullcannon into a counts-as Phallic Chariot instead...

-I realize a MOD probably would have adjusted any other word I'd use in place of "phallic"


Could you imagine all the daemonettes rubbing all over that thing though?

With a quick jerking action the daemonettes launch globules of death, suppressing enemy units it hits.

Tau Marker(black)lights receive a +1 to fire at units that have been hit by these daemonic warmachines.


How quickly can we get this locked?